RSS Facebook

RCMF

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
October 23, 2017, 05:19:22 AM

Login with username, password and session length

Articles

Author Topic: JR / Macgregor and Spektrum - a statement please re possible legislation changes  (Read 49553 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Barrye

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Flight Lieutenant
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 2
  • Posts: 54
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
I think I have worked part of the JR statement out.

JR's agreement with HH stops them selling low end DSM2 sets where Spektrum are available, so to get this slice of the market they have to do something different (DMSS)

Therefore XG7 will be sold world wide apart from the USA, because HH are the JR distributor in the US and won't want to stock a competing set.

What intrigues me is what it means for the 11z  - does the "DSM developments" mean there will be support for DSM2 telemetry?

Whilst the statement is helpful to a point JR needs to communicate their vision of what they are going to do on 2.4, and then do it quickly. Whilst there is confusion people will keep their wallets in their pockets. The longer it goes on the worse it will get.

Probably the 2 telling questions are


Will JR be supporting DSM2 telemetry

Will there be DMSS versions of 9x, 11z, 12x and will they have telemetry (my guess 11z, 12x yes, 9x no)


Barry


Offline Alan Smithie

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • RCMF Ace
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 6
  • -Receive: 66
  • Posts: 22,209
  • Liked: 1668
  • Country: gb
  • Stupid is as stupid does. My mission is to stop it
  • BMFA Number: 63119
You need to add "when will they be offering M-link compatability" to the list as well.

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

Offline onewasp

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Flight Lieutenant
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 11
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
_________________
I think I have worked part of the JR statement out. -----------

________________________________

Do you happen to be the speech writer for  Muammar al-Gaddafi  ????

I think it might be the similar reasoning patterns ----------------------       :)

The most accurate interpretation generally (almost always)  is  also the most simplistic .
He wrote a very clear concise letter for a very specific purpose .  
You are trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear .
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 00:29:21 AM by onewasp »


Offline Pitstop000

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Pilot Officer
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 2
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
_________________________________________________

Do you happen to be the speech writer for  Muammar al-Gaddafi  ????

I think it might be the similar reasoning patterns ----------------------       :)

The most accurate interpretation generally (almost always)  is  also the most simplistic .
He wrote a very clear concise letter for a very specific purpose .  
You are trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear .

Onewasp, what is the purpose of your post and your agenda here?  :study:

Can you not understand why this letter was released by JR ?  :-X

We get it, youíre a DSM2 Fan, Great !  :'(


Offline onewasp

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Flight Lieutenant
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 11
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
Onewasp, what is the purpose of your post and your agenda here?  :study:

Can you not understand why this letter was released by JR ?  :-X

We get it, youíre a DSM2 Fan, Great !  :'(



___________________________

I am simply "poking fun" at those trying to make the simple JR letter say things it never intended .

No sense of humor ???

I happen to have been the poster of that letter on this forum ------ of course I know what it said and I fly more than one brand of Tx / system .

What the hell rattled your cage ?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 01:27:29 AM by onewasp »


Offline Theaton56

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • RCMF Ace
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 7
  • -Receive: 9
  • Posts: 1,706
  • Liked: 10
  • Country: gb
  • JR Techie !!
Quote
Will JR be supporting DSM2 telemetry

Unlikely as it is only on a Spektrum based DX8 and probably on the Spektrum DX10. (But possibly in the future ???)

Quote
Will there be DMSS versions of 9x, 11z, 12x and will they have telemetry (my guess 11z, 12x yes, 9x no)

9X - Very much doubt it but possible some time in the future...  XG9 anyone ?

XG11 - probably next year

XG12 - possibly next year but who knows.

Please note that all my comments are based on personal gut feeling and are NOT insider knowledge. (Just in case BB is watching  :'')

Offline Pitstop000

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Pilot Officer
  • *
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 2
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
I think I have worked part of the JR statement out.

JR's agreement with HH stops them selling low end DSM2 sets where Spektrum are available, so to get this slice of the market they have to do something different (DMSS)

Therefore XG7 will be sold world wide apart from the USA, because HH are the JR distributor in the US and won't want to stock a competing set.

Agreed!  :af

Offline Lplus

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Wing Commander
  • ****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 5
  • Posts: 310
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
http://www.fai.org/aeromodelling/system/files/Frequencies_ESP_20100316.pdf

Steve


What's the difference between "pra" and "pire" output power?  The 35 meg output is "pra" and the 2.4 gig is "pire"

there must be some difference or it wouldn't be mentioned.

Offline JohnB

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Ace
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 43
  • -Receive: 34
  • Posts: 4,538
  • Liked: 8
  • Country: gb
  • No longer an active participant
What's the difference between "pra" and "pire" output power?  The 35 meg output is "pra" and the 2.4 gig is "pire"

there must be some difference or it wouldn't be mentioned.
I believe it's different methods used to measure power from the Tx, I'm sure PDR or Macman will be along shortly to give chapter and verse.

One thing for sure, I've been a Futaba user for years until changing to Spektrum and then on to DSX9. I've been very happy with JR, the programming and the quality of the Tx. I now however wishing I'd stayed on 35MHz because this is a complete shambles. I won't be jumping ship yet, Spektrum and DSX9 fits my purpose but in the future I will be looking round for a manufacturer that supports it's products with backwards compatability, clearly JR don't see the need for this but I'm sure many users will.

J
No longer an active participant.


Offline Leszek_K

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Squadron Leader
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 122
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
PIRA = EIRP = Effective isotropically radiated power
No idea what PRA means.

Offline Windy

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • RCMF Ace
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 11
  • -Receive: 24
  • Posts: 2,411
  • Liked: 22
  • Country: gb
  • zzzzz...
Power radiated anisotropically? Just guessing.

Offline FlyinBrian

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • RCMF Ace
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 12
  • -Receive: 15
  • Posts: 3,574
  • Liked: 79
  • Country: gb
  • Am I a Llama?
  • BMFA Number: 011606
_________

Suggest you read this letter from JR.

Hardly dropping DSM2 !

To Our Valued JR Customers:

During the recent BMFA Nationals, a new JR 7 channel radio system using DMSS was shown by our UK distributor. This system uses a technology that is incompatible with DSM2 in order to meet a market need where DSM2 is not available to JR. Unfortunately, several individuals made statements that JR finds very misleading and require correction.

JR remains committed to future development with DSM technologies and to our customers who currently own JR equipment using the DSM standard. JR will continue to manufacture, sell, and support DSM equipment in all markets currently allowed by agreement.

It is our goal that this communication clears up any questions about JRís intentions and that JR remains confident in and committed to the future of DSM technology around the world.

We thank you for your continued support.

Kind regards

Mooney Takamura.
International Sales Manager
JR Propo


And I suggest you read Macmans post earlier in the thread!!,  perhaps Europe is not "in all markets currently allowed by agreement.

DSM technology does not = DSM2, DSM covers the whole gamut of protocols used by R/C systems.

DSM2 is a HORIZON HOBBIES / SPEKTRUM proprietary protocol and JR licenced it. They are/have developed their own DSM protocol which is NOT DSM2.

JR, afaik, has no intention to continue producing DSM2, support of existing sets is a different matter!

Brian

Basic Research is what I do - when I don't know what I'm doing!.

Offline markg

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Ace
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 2
  • -Receive: 15
  • Posts: 4,638
  • Liked: 81
  • Country: 00
DSM technology does not = DSM2, DSM covers the whole gamut of protocols used by R/C systems.

No it doesn't.  In this context DSM refers to Spektrum's original 2.4GHz DSSS protocol and DSM2 refers to the updated version of it.

edit: I wasn't sure myself after typing that but yeah:


http://www.spektrumrc.com/DSM/FAQ.aspx
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 11:48:33 AM by markg »

Offline Theaton56

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • RCMF Ace
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 7
  • -Receive: 9
  • Posts: 1,706
  • Liked: 10
  • Country: gb
  • JR Techie !!
Guys,

There is no reason to get our knickers in a twist over this.  We can interpret Mooney's wording until the cows come home and it still won't affect anything at all.

DSM2 from Spektrum is here to stay, JR will continue to support it (under licence from Horizon/Spektrum) for some time yet.  The new DMSS is appearing in the XG7 in the not too distant future and will appear again in other new JR systems.

This all stems from the meeting a few years ago when a certain company wanted to ban us from the 2.4 GHz band.  Unfortunately the rules where written in such a way that they were open to misinterpretation and until the new rules appear next year all we are doing is speculating and panicking.

No need to, lets all just relax and fly with what we have chosen as best for your needs.

 :study:

Offline Leszek_K

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Squadron Leader
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 122
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
DSSS (direct-sequence spread spectrum) is not a protocol, nor is FHSS (frequency-hopping spread spectrum). They are different ways to create a spread spectrum signal.
And do not take a channel hopping, as in all decent 2.4GHz RC systems, for FHSS. It is different level.
All existing RC systems are DSSS, no matter what manufacturer claims.
Now back to DSM against DSM2. The only difference between them is that DSM could occasionally allocate its 2 working channels close together, so, for example, video signal on 2.4GHz could jam it, DSM2 is a bit smarter and allocates those 2 channels far apart. End of a story.

Offline HarryC

  • Trade Count: (+2)
  • RCMF Ace
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 14
  • Posts: 7,249
  • Liked: 194
  • Country: gb
All existing RC systems are DSSS, no matter what manufacturer claims.
And in the USA in its application for FCC approval, Futaba specifically says that FASST is DSSS, they do not claim it to be FHSS.  I notice that no official Futaba marketing literature uses the phrase FHSS or "frequency hopping", they use the phrase "channel shifting", so whilst giving the impression it is FHSS they are scrupulous in avoiding actually using that phrase.
What of the others though such as Multiplex, Weatronic, Hitec etc who do specifically use the phrase FHSS?  Why not say channel hopping rather than say FHSS?

Offline g4rko

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • RCMF Air Commodore
  • *****
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 3
  • Posts: 757
  • Liked: 14
  • Country: gb
  • Bull Frog
And in the USA in its application for FCC approval, Futaba specifically says that FASST is DSSS, they do not claim it to be FHSS. ..........

Probably why they call it FASST  ;)
Barry Cooper


Offline Leszek_K

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Squadron Leader
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 122
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
I think it is all down to local laws in some countries. DSSS is limited to 10mW while FHSS can emit up to 100mW eirp.  All because of different nature of a signal.  One can say that channel hopping actually is frequency hopping. . . . . .

Offline onewasp

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Flight Lieutenant
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 11
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb

And I suggest you read Macmans post earlier in the thread!!,  perhaps Europe is not "in all markets currently allowed by agreement.

DSM technology does not = DSM2, DSM covers the whole gamut of protocols used by R/C systems.

DSM2 is a HORIZON HOBBIES / SPEKTRUM proprietary protocol and JR licenced it. They are/have developed their own DSM protocol which is NOT DSM2.

JR, afaik, has no intention to continue producing DSM2, support of existing sets is a different matter!

Brian



DSM stands for Digital Spectrum Modulation . Which IS patented by Horizon / Spektrum / Paul Beard . John Adams is also included.

You are thinking DSSS  Direct Sequencing Spread Spectrum, which is the generic .

Makes little difference in the long run but it does clarify its use in the JR letter .
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 00:17:57 AM by onewasp »

Offline Leszek_K

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Squadron Leader
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 122
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
Onewasp - what the hell they patented. The whole thing was well known long before anyone of them was born.

Offline satinet

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Ace
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 5
  • -Receive: 74
  • Posts: 9,168
  • Liked: 53
  • Country: gb
  • Sat-in-bed
Spelling spectrum with a 'k' perhaps....?

Offline markg

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Ace
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 2
  • -Receive: 15
  • Posts: 4,638
  • Liked: 81
  • Country: 00
Surely it's just the name they have given to their protocol, which is the thing that they patented.

Offline Leszek_K

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Squadron Leader
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 122
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
Hmmmm, they don't use any special protocol. It is just fairly standard serial transmission. No rocket science in it.

Offline markg

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Ace
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 2
  • -Receive: 15
  • Posts: 4,638
  • Liked: 81
  • Country: 00
I didn't say that it's "special" or "rocket science" or anything else you want to imagine that I wrote.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 11:26:51 AM by markg »

Offline Leszek_K

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Squadron Leader
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 122
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
I know you didn't. I am just wondering what was there to patent. That's it.

Offline markg

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Ace
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 2
  • -Receive: 15
  • Posts: 4,638
  • Liked: 81
  • Country: 00

Offline onewasp

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Flight Lieutenant
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 11
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
Onewasp - what the hell they patented. The whole thing was well known long before anyone of them was born.
________________________

Ask them, they're the ones with the patent and the disclosures.
  

He who can explain, (with logic) the essence of Patent and Copyright Law could probably own the world .   :)


« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 16:26:43 PM by onewasp »

Offline skirmish

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Ace
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 1
  • -Receive: 6
  • Posts: 1,814
  • Liked: 57
  • Country: gb
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=MT6rAAAAEBAJ&dq=Digital+Spectrum+Modulation+radio+control

That's quite a patent. Interesting that the description is very long yet there are only five relatively short claims.
The strength of a patent is always in the claims.

Offline onewasp

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Flight Lieutenant
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 11
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
That's quite a patent. Interesting that the description is very long yet there are only five relatively short claims.
The strength of a patent is always in the claims.

_________________________

Deep pockets and Law Firm connections are mitigating factors .

While that should be in jest it unfortunately is not jest at all, but reality.
Simply the way the world works .

I hate to even think of what it cost me to learn that .
Trust me though I learned well, if expensively .

Offline Leszek_K

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Squadron Leader
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 122
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
O.M.G.  :o :o :o

Quote
The concept of frequency hopping was first alluded to in the 1903 U.S. Patent 723,188 and U.S. Patent 725,605 filed by Nikola Tesla  in July 1900. Tesla came up with the idea after demonstrating the world's first radio-controlled submersible boat in 1898, when it became apparent the wireless signals controlling the boat needed to be secure from "being disturbed, intercepted, or interfered with in any way." His patents covered two fundamentally different techniques for achieving immunity to interference, both of which functioned by altering the carrier frequency or other exclusive characteristic. The first had a transmitter that worked simultaneously at two or more separate frequencies and a receiver in which each of the individual transmitted frequencies had to be tuned in, in order for the control circuitry to respond. The second technique used a variable-frequency transmitter controlled by an encoding wheel that altered the transmitted frequency in a predetermined manner. These patents describe the basic principles of frequency hopping and frequency-division multiplexing, and also the electronic AND-gate logic circuit.

Offline pchristy

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Squadron Leader
  • ***
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 6
  • -Receive: 3
  • Posts: 193
  • Liked: 20
  • Country: gb
Sorry for not having been around much lately! A combination of the dreaded "lurgy" and a mountain of work on my return has kept me well away from a computer for quite a while! And this weekend, I'm off on my travels for a few days....

However, back to the topic! I'm not going to try and repond to all the queries individually, as there have been so many, and the story seems to have moved on!

The point I was trying to make in my last post was that the JR statement should probably be taken at face value - and nothing more! I hear what Mac-man says about the gentleman's excellent English, but I feel his note was being subjected to a level of analysis and scrutiny that a seasoned British politician would have found hard to withstand! I think people are trying to read into his statement something that simply isn't there!

I thought that following the Brussels meeting of a year or so back, all the European countries that were dragging their heels over 2.4 GHz had been instructed to get their act together. This is, after all, a European standard - and any country trying to prosecute an individual for using ANY CE approved 2.4 GHz equipment could well find themselves being prosecuted themselves!

The only possible exception might be the French, as they only allow the use of part of the band at present, though that is due to change soon.

My comments at areas not allowing DSM2 was primarily aimed at those that come under Japanese influence. Most of the world seems to fall in line with either US or EU standards, depending on history and political allegiances! But that doesn't mean that there won't be places that are more restrictive than the relatively liberal US or EU regulations, and I would imagine that was what the letter was referring to!

In the meantime I shall continue to fly both my DSM2 and FHSS systems with every confidence that I will be able to continue with both for many years to come. And any future purchases will be dictated by suitability and research, and not by scurrilous internet rumours!
--
Pete
 "No matter how much you push the envelope, it'll still be stationery."

Offline onewasp

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Flight Lieutenant
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 11
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb

In the meantime I shall continue to fly both my DSM2 and FHSS systems with every confidence that I will be able to continue with both for many years to come. And any future purchases will be dictated by suitability and research, and not by scurrilous internet rumours!
____________________________

at last !   
May the cryptography sect disband .

Hear, hear .    :)
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 18:46:43 PM by onewasp »

Offline Theaton56

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • RCMF Ace
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 7
  • -Receive: 9
  • Posts: 1,706
  • Liked: 10
  • Country: gb
  • JR Techie !!
Quote
May the cryptography sect disband

But that was one of my favourite fields when I was in the Forces....    :'(

Offline onewasp

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • RCMF Flight Lieutenant
  • **
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 0
  • -Receive: 0
  • Posts: 11
  • Liked: 0
  • Country: gb
But that was one of my favourite fields when I was in the Forces....    :'(

_____________

Ahhhhhhh, making magic smoke .

Still a useful occupation is it not ?
From that standpoint it is really but a change of venue for you ----- using a little stretch of course .   ;)

Offline Theaton56

  • Trade Count: (+3)
  • RCMF Ace
  • ******
  • Thank You
  • -Given: 7
  • -Receive: 9
  • Posts: 1,706
  • Liked: 10
  • Country: gb
  • JR Techie !!
Nick,

Hardly any cause for it in what I do now.... 

 :ev


 

BloQcs design by Bloc
SMF 2.0.2 | SMF © 2011, Simple Machines
SMFAds for Free Forums
TinyPortal © 2005-2012
Page created in 1.254 seconds with 72 queries.