Author Topic: JR / Macgregor and Spektrum - a statement please re possible legislation changes (Read 59735 times)

Pat Barnes · « **Reply #40 on:** August 23, 2010, 21:08:10 PM »

Hmmm...

Still sticking with 35MHz for the moment then!

I go flying at the club and have the entire band, not just my frequency, to myself these days. Peg on the board at the start of the day (the only one there!), and it only comes off at the end! Result!

Modified to say I still have a zero count of glitches/interference/shootdowns, and the likelyhood of any of those happening is diminishing daily!

CHEL · « **Reply #41 on:** August 23, 2010, 21:52:54 PM »

Hmmmm....

Well I'm sticking to my Spektrum 2.4GHz, I use in my boats and planes, it does what is says on the tin and I don't have worry about what other people are using.

As for the European talk shop, well they won't come to any decision for years.

I'm off to tell the King, the sky is falling.....

Phil.

FlyinBrian · « **Reply #42 on:** August 23, 2010, 21:53:28 PM »

Quote from: Lplus on August 22, 2010, 21:36:59 PM

Ah, so Horizon could update the Spektrum equipment to DSMJ but JR could only sell new DSMJ equipment?

BTW the info on the DSM2 picking 2 close frequencies is here http://www.rcmodelreviews.com/dsm2flaw.shtml

As I said, theoretically possible to pick up two close or even adjacent channels, however if all the other 2.4Ghz kit is working to the correct standards (checking the frequency is clear before transmitting and operating at the correct power o/p) there should be no issue.

I think the only thing that would cause such problems would be deliberate malicious action and if someone wants to be malicious they could equally splatter right across the part of the 2.4 Gig band modellers use then it won't much matter what protocol type you radio uses.

CHEL · « **Reply #43 on:** August 24, 2010, 09:07:06 AM »

Quote

I think the only thing that would cause such problems would be deliberate malicious action and if someone wants to be malicious they could equally splatter right across the part of the 2.4 Gig band modellers use then it won't much matter what protocol type you radio uses.

What, do you mean it would even interfere with Mmmultiplex, gulp, what is this world coming too. My goodness, they told me it was bomb proof.

Phil.

SteveBB · « **Reply #44 on:** August 24, 2010, 09:18:03 AM »

Quote from: CHEL on August 24, 2010, 09:07:06 AM

What, do you mean it would even interfere with Mmmultiplex, gulp, what is this world coming too. My goodness, they told me it was bomb proof.

Phil.

Perhaps it is; but no radio is frequency swamp proof.

Mole Hunter · « **Reply #45 on:** August 24, 2010, 09:27:10 AM »

So if MacG went to DSMJ the jap sets would become UK legal?

Theaton56 · « **Reply #46 on:** August 24, 2010, 22:02:01 PM »

Quote

So if MacG went to DSMJ the jap sets would become UK legal?

No, as they have not been CE tested.

There is something in the wind and I am waiting for permission to release the info. Hopefully I will be allowed to say more next week.

FlyinBrian · « **Reply #47 on:** August 24, 2010, 23:05:37 PM »

Quote from: CHEL on August 24, 2010, 09:07:06 AM

What, do you mean it would even interfere with Mmmultiplex, gulp, what is this world coming too. My goodness, they told me it was bomb proof.

Phil.

Well there is always an exception that proves the rule, I suppose you could say MPX is on a par with cockroaches, they are supsosedly nuclear bomb proof.

FlyinBrian · « **Reply #48 on:** August 24, 2010, 23:07:49 PM »

Quote from: mac_man on August 24, 2010, 22:02:01 PM

No, as they have not been CE tested.

There is something in the wind and I am waiting for permission to release the info. Hopefully I will be allowed to say more next week.

What is in the wind around here the last couple of days has been lumps of tree and roof tiles

Steve J · « **Reply #49 on:** August 25, 2010, 14:07:25 PM »

This topic has cost me £50

. After reading the report that said that DSM2 can pick adjacent frequencies, I went and bought a USB 2.4GHz scanner. I am happy to report that my DSX9 picks frequencies 40MHz apart. I'll post some scans in separate topic.

Steve

HarryC · « **Reply #50 on:** August 25, 2010, 14:38:00 PM »

I reported some months ago that using the scanner on my Weatronics system, it shows my DX7 always chose channels that were half the available band apart, so for example it would choose channel 1 and 41, or 10 and 50 and so on. It never varied from that, it never chose 2 adjacent channels or even nearby channels.

grayuk · « **Reply #51 on:** August 25, 2010, 17:37:20 PM »

what if the channels are busy? it may not be able to keep that spacing?

Theaton56 · « **Reply #52 on:** August 27, 2010, 11:26:32 AM »

Okay, Have been given permission to release....

JR will be bringing out their own 2.4 GHz systems on new future systems. Their new 7 channel system is undergoing full CE testing at the moment and for aircraft use it will be full FHSS.

It is hoped to be in production in October, they will be dropping the DSMJ system and from what I can gather, no longer manufacturing DSM2 FOR NEW SYSTEMS.

They will still be supporting the DSM2 for some period of time.

Their entry level set is called the XG7 and supports telemetry. The receiver is fitted with 2 long antennas ( similar to Futaba/Hitec) and comes with a telemetry sender. Currently it is for Rx battery voltage but you will be able to add additional probes to it.

For those of you heading to the NATS this weekend, it will be there.

Transmitter styling is that of the 2720/DX7.

As it is a completely new system and not based on Spektrums hardware, there is no compatibility or upgrade path with DSM2.

Lplus · « **Reply #53 on:** August 27, 2010, 11:58:26 AM »

Thanks for the information mac_man.

markg · « **Reply #54 on:** August 27, 2010, 12:09:49 PM »

Interesting. So is this anything to do with questions over the legal status of DSM2 or is it just a split between Spektrum and JR?

FlyinBrian · « **Reply #55 on:** August 27, 2010, 12:16:36 PM »

Quote from: mac_man on August 27, 2010, 11:26:32 AM

Okay, Have been given permission to release....

JR will be bringing out their own 2.4 GHz systems on new future systems. Their new 7 channel system is undergoing full CE testing at the moment and for aircraft use it will be full FHSS.

It is hoped to be in production in October, they will be dropping the DSMJ system and from what I can gather, no longer manufacturing DSM2 FOR NEW SYSTEMS.

They will still be supporting the DSM2 for some period of time.

Their entry level set is called the XG7 and supports telemetry. The receiver is fitted with 2 long antennas ( similar to Futaba/Hitec) and comes with a telemetry sender. Currently it is for Rx battery voltage but you will be able to add additional probes to it.

For those of you heading to the NATS this weekend, it will be there.

Transmitter styling is that of the 2720/DX7.

As it is a completely new system and not based on Spektrums hardware, there is no compatibility or upgrade path with DSM2.

Well a guess some news is better than none.

From what you say there will be no upgrade path from DSM2 to JR FHSS. JR are abandoning several thousand modellers who have bought JR DSM2 sets, even those bought recently!

If that is the case then thanks very much JR, it will be a long time before I buy anything with a JR label

satinet · « **Reply #56 on:** August 27, 2010, 12:18:23 PM »

it does say they will still be supporting DSM2 for a while though........

Alan H · « **Reply #57 on:** August 27, 2010, 12:29:45 PM »

Quote from: Steve J on August 25, 2010, 14:07:25 PM

This topic has cost me £50 . After reading the report that said that DSM2 can pick adjacent frequencies, I went and bought a USB 2.4GHz scanner. I am happy to report that my DSX9 picks frequencies 40MHz apart. I'll post some scans in separate topic.

Steve

Steve, I was thinking of buying a USB 2.4GHz scanner to replace my home constructed parallel port scanner (no parallel port on my new PC). I wondered which one you bought as the Wi-Spy is around £100.
Thanks, Alan

Lplus · « **Reply #58 on:** August 27, 2010, 12:50:10 PM »

Quote from: satinet on August 27, 2010, 12:18:23 PM

it does say they will still be supporting DSM2 for a while though........

Also this is for new systems - so will the old DSM2 systems still be made/sold for a while - and who will buy them?

It does seem like JR have little faith in the EU being sensible about non FHSS, although having to rely on someone else's system must grate with their management.

It may even be there are other things going on and the EU regulations are the least of JR's problems

satinet · « **Reply #59 on:** August 27, 2010, 12:58:28 PM »

I don't know anything about the way JR works. I am a, yes, multiplex user, but really I can't see in the long term that one of the two biggest rc electronic manufacturers in the world (?) is going to sell radios for ever that it doesn't wholly control in terms of the design and development of the RF part of it.

I might be way off the mark, but it seems an inevitability.

bugsb · « **Reply #60 on:** August 27, 2010, 13:02:41 PM »

i can see allot of sets going on the bmfa and ebay very soon

Ron

markg · « **Reply #61 on:** August 27, 2010, 13:13:25 PM »

Quote from: satinet on August 27, 2010, 12:58:28 PM

I don't know anything about the way JR works. I am a, yes, multiplex user, but really I can't see in the long term that one of the two biggest rc electronic manufacturers in the world (?) is going to sell radios for ever that it doesn't wholly control in terms of the design and development of the RF part of it.

I might be way off the mark, but it seems an inevitability.

Not really relevant but that's made me wonder if that statement is still true. Are JR/Futaba still the two biggest? What with the behemoth enterprise that all falls under the Horizon Hobbies umbrella?

Theaton56 · « **Reply #62 on:** August 27, 2010, 13:19:50 PM »

Basically JR found themselves in a binding contract with Horizon/Spektrum that left JR with no choice than to go with the DSM/DSM2 system if they wanted to go into the 2.4GHz game. Not going to go into that but..........

I did say that ALL FUTURE radios will be the new FHSS system and therefore will NOT AFFECT any current user. They will be supporting DSM2 for at least 2 years. And anyway, the evil HH will keep their DSM2 line going for a long time yet to come.

No matter what the outcome of next years 300-328 revision will be, you will be safe. Think back to 27 MHz days, it was still legal to use current systems but you could not buy new systems.

IF the new regs deem that DSM2 does not meet the new regs, then if you have a DSM2 system you can still use it but you wouldn't be able to buy a new DSM2 system.

Let's be honest, how many radios do you own ? 1 for definite, probably 2 and the more serious ones will have 3 or more. How many receivers do you have ? The receivers will still be available from JR for some years at least or alternatively, HH will still have them.

If anyone is complaining that DSMJ is being dropped from JR's offering, then sorry.... if you are in the UK or EU then lets be honest... tough ! It's not been tested and therefore you shouldn't be using it !

As for the split.... as I said above, JR was stuck with DSM2 even though they had their own system. The agreement was that JR did all the 9 channel and above under the JR branding but manufactured the Spektrum labelled radios for Spektrum.

With the introduction of the DX10, it looks like Spektrum have broken away first and that the likes of the DX5, DX6i and DX8, DX10 are NOT being manufactured by JR ( made in either China or Taiwan for the lower systems, and I believe the 8 and 10 are possibly being made in Malaysia but not certain about that)

As you may be aware, DSMJ is just a software upgrade to the DSM2 but from the limited testing I did when I had a DSMJ module, the hop rate did not seem to be that fast. I may be wrong (frequently am) but the rate did not exceed 2 hops per second. I looked at the signal on the latest Rohde & Schwarz spectrum analyser, I may have driven it wrong as I am more used to Hewlett Packard Spec Analysers.

Remember that the DSM2 was allowable because the regs were not really specific and there was a massive grey area. Does listening to other channels really come under utilising them ?

Anyway, please remember that the new regs do not get published until after the vote and that is next October so anything else is speculation.

Steve J · « **Reply #63 on:** August 27, 2010, 13:21:24 PM »

JR and Spektrum splitting doen't bother me. My next radio was likely to be a DX10T anyway. I must say though, that this looks like suicide for JR.

Quote from: Alan H on August 27, 2010, 12:29:45 PM

I was thinking of buying a USB 2.4GHz scanner to replace my home constructed parallel port scanner (no parallel port on my new PC). I wondered which one you bought as the Wi-Spy is around £100.

An Ubiquiti AirView from MS (Distribution). Basic, but it does what I want and works on both PC's and Macs.

Steve

Steve J · « **Reply #64 on:** August 27, 2010, 13:53:01 PM »

Quote from: mac_man on August 27, 2010, 11:26:32 AM

Their entry level set is called the XG7 and supports telemetry.

Look what I found -

JR / Macgregor and Spektrum - a statement please re possible legislation changes

Steve

propeak · « **Reply #65 on:** August 27, 2010, 13:58:04 PM »

Quote from: bugsb on August 27, 2010, 13:02:41 PM

i can see allot of sets going on the bmfa and ebay very soon
Ron

Thats been going on for ages allready, mine will be joining them shortly but for a differant reason,

i thought something was brewing with j/r with brand new DSX9s being sold at under £300.

Lplus · « **Reply #66 on:** August 27, 2010, 14:53:48 PM »

A new acronym on the block - DMSS

Dual modulation spectrum system.

Theaton56 · « **Reply #67 on:** August 27, 2010, 15:05:03 PM »

LOL, good old DMSS....

DSSS for ground, FHSS for air. Not in the same package though..

HarryC · « **Reply #68 on:** August 27, 2010, 15:21:34 PM »

Quote from: Steve J on August 22, 2010, 11:15:31 AM

An output from a spectrum analyser was posted by Mpx which showed the two selected frequency bands 40Mhz apart.

Steve

Just spotted that. I didn't say it was 40Mhz apart, it was showing as 40 channels apart in an analyser claiming 80 channels in the 2.4gig band. I have a feeling they are 1Mhz channels and if so then they would indeed be 40mhz apart, but I don't know so I can't claim they were 40MHZ apart, just 40 channels apart.

Barrye · « **Reply #69 on:** August 27, 2010, 18:40:49 PM »

This explains why all of the 11x's came in with DSM2 modules, not integrated. No doubt in a few months there will be a new module and a software upgrade for telemetry.

Mac Man - do you know if there will be an upgrade path for those of us with DSX9's and DSX12's. We could left with worthless trannies if DSM2 does infringe the new regs. Yes we will be still be able to use them and get Rx's from HH, but no one will want to buy them when we want to upgrade

Gordon W · « **Reply #70 on:** August 27, 2010, 22:35:12 PM »

Quote from: Barrye on August 27, 2010, 18:40:49 PM

This explains why all of the 11x's came in with DSM2 modules, not integrated. No doubt in a few months there will be a new module and a software upgrade for telemetry.

Thanks for the info Macman. Luckily I haven't managed to save up enough for a DSX12 yet , and now have another year to get the dosh together for one with the FHSS system.

So I'll carry on with ye olde and well loved 10X and Spektrum module/Rx's for now. Which begs the question, do the 11X DSM2 modules fit the older modular Tx's such as my 10X, because if they do, and if a FHSS module comes out for the 11X, a cheaper upgade path will become available.

Gordon

Theaton56 · « **Reply #71 on:** August 27, 2010, 22:43:55 PM »

The reason why the 11X came with modules is simple.... the integrated systems is not yet CE tested, I prefer the module based system as it allows you to use a standard 35 MHz or 40 MHz module as well as the DSM2 module.

According to Horizon's John Adams ( technical bod) the 11X integrated cannot be upgraded to Telemetry.

I have a feeling that the 11X and possibly the 12X MAY be re-released sometime in the future with DMSS, depending on the rework necessary, there MAY be an upgrade path.

I must point out that this is my personal gut feeling seeing as how they both have the ability to be flash upgraded.

I think I can safely say that the DSX9 will be a non starter in the upgrade path as there would be too much hardware to change out.

The current systems will not be worthless as they are still a viable working system, in the US the 72 MHz market has all but dried up, yet here in the UK, 35 MHz is still strong. So with the advent of the DSX9, it hasn't really affected the market as such.

Oh one thing I forgot to mention..... it goes support the quirky French channelisation of the 2.4 GHz band and France is listed in the Binding Options on the XG7

Theaton56 · « **Reply #72 on:** August 27, 2010, 22:46:00 PM »

Hi Gordon, yes the 11X DSm2 module fits any normal 5 pin module based Tx.

I tested the DSMJ and DSM2 modules on my 9XII.

reyn3545 · « **Reply #73 on:** August 29, 2010, 02:46:41 AM »

Quote from: FlyinBrian on August 27, 2010, 12:16:36 PM

Well a guess some news is better than none.

From what you say there will be no upgrade path from DSM2 to JR FHSS. JR are abandoning several thousand modellers who have bought JR DSM2 sets, even those bought recently!

If that is the case then thanks very much JR, it will be a long time before I buy anything with a JR label

Well, it didn't take long for this post to make it across the Atlantic... now everyone is argueing on both sides of the pond about whether or not JR will continue support on DSM2. I bet some of them still drive cars without power steering.

FlyinBrian · « **Reply #74 on:** August 29, 2010, 06:40:52 AM »

A clubmate just bought a complete Turnigy system Tx & 2 rxs for c£80 delivered. I flew it in an electric glider and it seemed fine, he flew the other rx in a Boomerang trainer and this also was fine.

The FRSky stuff seems very good and good value, I think I may be doing some experimenting soon.

Can anyone say (MacMan?) if the DSX9 has a convenient PPM signal that can be picked up to drive the FRSky module?Yes I am aware that some FRSky Tx modules have died but these all seem to happen at switch on with the model safely on the ground.

In the longer term I can see myself returning to the fold of MPX and

to JR

Barrye · « **Reply #75 on:** August 29, 2010, 08:38:44 AM »

I think we should all thank Mac Man for his openness and honesty, remember don't shoot the messenger.

Unfortunately this presents a big problem from JR/Macgregor. Anyone who knows about this isn't going to buy a DSX9, DSX12 or 11z until it is clear what is happening with these JR trannies and also the new legislation.

Some people will see this announcement as JR having inside knowledge on the new regs and pre-empting things, so there will be a reluctance to purchase new DSM2 kit (JR or Spektrum).

For DMSS to take off JR are going to have to do trade in deals on RX's because if people are going to move away from DSM2 then they will look at all offerings (Fut, Mpx, Hitec etc..)

Barry

Alan · « **Reply #76 on:** August 29, 2010, 08:43:58 AM »

I've stayed well away from 2.4 so far, since my prefered brand in JR, I don't get on with Futaba programming. Was toying with a 12X to replace my MC24, but since hearing about possible issues I have tried the FrSky system in my spare 9X and find it fine, so will be testing in the MC 24 also.

propeak · « **Reply #77 on:** August 29, 2010, 12:47:16 PM »

Quote from: FlyinBrian on August 29, 2010, 06:40:52 AM

A clubmate just bought a complete Turnigy system Tx & 2 rxs for c£80 delivered. I flew it in an electric glider and it seemed fine, he flew the other rx in a Boomerang trainer and this also was fine.

The FRSky stuff seems very good and good value, I think I may be doing some experimenting soon.

Can anyone say (MacMan?) if the DSX9 has a convenient PPM signal that can be picked up to drive the FRSky module?Yes I am aware that some FRSky Tx modules have died but these all seem to happen at switch on with the model safely on the ground.

In the longer term I can see myself returning to the fold of MPX and to JR

There should be no problem at all fitting the frsky hack module in a dsx9, people have allready done this with there dx7s, i was going to convert my dx7 but i picked up a futaba 7c which iv'e always considered a far superior tranny to the dx7 and converted that instead,

so there will be another dx7 and a load of receivers going for sale shortly.

bullfrog_sc · « **Reply #78 on:** August 29, 2010, 13:01:25 PM »

I'm in the process of having to replace my Futaba FF9 as its been playing up lately. With all this going on, i'm now reluctant to upgrade to my chosen tx, the new DX8. What would most people do with the DSM2 saga, bite the bullet and get one or opt for something else.

Steve

leccyflyer · « **Reply #79 on:** August 29, 2010, 13:32:37 PM »

Quote from: bullfrog_sc on August 29, 2010, 13:01:25 PM

I'm in the process of having to replace my Futaba FF9 as its been playing up lately. With all this going on, i'm now reluctant to upgrade to my chosen tx, the new DX8. What would most people do with the DSM2 saga, bite the bullet and get one or opt for something else.

Steve

Personally I wouldn't dream of buying a DX-8 that might end up being obsolete in a year's time.

I've recently changed tack on buying receivers for my DX7 - aiming to at least get enough of them before any restrictions on DSM2 might be involved, such that the system and those I've already got will be enough to allow me to use them on most of my fleet.

I'm far from happy about that though and if I were at the stage of buying a new system from scratch I certainly wouldn't touch Spektrum with a barge pole. I think I'd be looking at HiTech.

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Author Topic: JR / Macgregor and Spektrum - a statement please re possible legislation changes (Read 59735 times)