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Author Topic: electrifying a slope soarer.  (Read 1632 times)

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Offline itsme

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electrifying a slope soarer.
« on: July 03, 2017, 19:18:39 PM »
Being fed up with constant windy conditions lately, I have been considering a return to the slope. Problem- I live a good long run from a decent slope. So I was wondering, why not build a slope soarer and put an electric set up in it? I have a lovely grass field club I am a member of just two miles from home. Problem- I know very little about electric. So, has it already been done, if so, how, and what sort of set up (based on 3s) would I need to have a fast climb to height to do slope style glider manoeuvres and then climb again? I was thinking one of these- ila_rendered from Stan Yeo, obviously adjusting the fuselage size to suit, with a folding prop. Is it doable? Stans models (I have built a few) fly great and are simple builds. I was even thinking of using the gear out of a defunct Wot 4 foamie but motors etc are not really expensive. Any recommendations?


Offline Phil_G

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #1 on: July 03, 2017, 20:18:35 PM »
Whats a good long run Bob?  I'm 50 miles from Callow,  HOH is 60 miles, Nont Sarahs about 45. Summer Hill (Great Ayton) is about 70. All regular haunts, well worth the journey. Pack a flask & some sarnies and make a day of it.
Electric?  Pffft  :nananana:
Cheers
Phil
« Last Edit: July 03, 2017, 20:24:12 PM by Phil_G »

Offline itsme

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #2 on: July 03, 2017, 20:46:38 PM »
Whats a good long run Bob?  I'm 50 miles from Callow,  HOH is 60 miles, Nont Sarahs about 45. Summer Hill (Great Ayton) is about 70. All regular haunts, well worth the journey. Pack a flask & some sarnies and make a day of it.
Electric?  Pffft  :nananana:
Cheers
Phil
Ha ha Phil. It would be Scotsmans Pack for lunch....No, I have to accept that costs come in to it for me, but I thought that Callow was off limits now? Even that is thirty miles, when I have a lovely grass strip almost at my door. I could still go up there with this model and just remove the prop.


Offline Patmac

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2017, 00:08:25 AM »
I fly an old Protech Unlimited on the flat in the way you describe & also occasionaly as a sloper. I got it s/h with brushed motor & nicads years ago & converted it to brushless with 3s lipo. It's about 62" span & about 38 - 40 oz RTF with 3s 1800 lipo or 3s 2200's.
Power train : Emax 2815/09 1400 kv, Graupner 9x5 folder, Hobbywing Pentium 40 ESC.  Current 29A, power 300W @ 12400rpm.

ila_rendered

Similar setup should be good in the Pzazz but the nose area would need fattening to take the motor. Probably best to design nose mods around a 40mm spinner.
Pax vobiscum

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Offline Phil_G

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2017, 01:03:41 AM »
I thought that Callow was off limits now?
Not at all,  its important that we continue to use it, and be seen to be using it. Was there yesterday:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Puytej-gw20" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Puytej-gw20</a>

Even that is thirty miles,
You're much nearer than me then Bob, and Callow is my regular haunt!
Cheers
Phil



Offline Bad Raven

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2017, 06:53:05 AM »
PM sent..............
The user formerly know as Bravedan........... Well if Prince can do it....................

Offline itsme

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2017, 08:47:03 AM »
Patmac- thats exactly the info I was after. Does it go up quickly? I'd like a bit of upwards performance.
Phil- does Sheffield no longer control it? I heard that the tenant farmer put posts all over the landing area. Cant beat  Callow in a nice steady westerly.

Offline Patmac

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2017, 23:45:19 PM »
Bob, the climb's pretty well vertical, get's uncomfortable to see within a 15 -  20 secs. A lower kv motor & using a bigger dia prop would climb faster for the same power. I nearly always fly it at full or closed throttle doing aeros on the glide.
If you use down elevator compensating mix with throttle it's best to set a second or so delay. I didn't first time I tried the mix, dived from altitude on the glide for a low fast pass down the strip & opened up ready the climb back up but the down elevator mix took effect before the throttle & nearly caused an embarassing nose dart manoeuver.  :embarassed: Since then I've moved the cg back to minimize the nose up on full throttle & on this model I manualy control any nose up pitching instead of using a mix.
Pax vobiscum

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Offline itsme

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2017, 08:34:05 AM »
Scratching my head between these choices on Stans site. For the 63" slope glider I posted above. Go for the one that throws the biggest prop?


Offline Patmac

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2017, 23:54:11 PM »
From the POV of power, weight & KV the 3542/05 is probably fine (Also it has a 5mm shaft). However all of the motors shown are set up for front mounting, meaning that there will need to be space made for the wires to avoid rubbing against the rotating case. It might be possible to reverse the shaft but it isn't always. Alternately the motor could be firewall mounted using an "X" mount with a bolt on extension used for the prop drive. Room would have to be left behind the firewall for the redundant shaft, or it could be cut away.
OTOH you could get this motor which is identical except for the shaft, the colour, the price & Overlander's BS claims. But it does include accessories.

When you choose an ESC make sure that the BEC is "switch" mode not "linear" mode.     
Pax vobiscum

Offline itsme

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2017, 08:19:49 AM »
From the POV of power, weight & KV the 3542/05 is probably fine (Also it has a 5mm shaft). However all of the motors shown are set up for front mounting, meaning that there will need to be space made for the wires to avoid rubbing against the rotating case. It might be possible to reverse the shaft but it isn't always. Alternately the motor could be firewall mounted using an "X" mount with a bolt on extension used for the prop drive. Room would have to be left behind the firewall for the redundant shaft, or it could be cut away.
OTOH you could get this motor which is identical except for the shaft, the colour, the price & Overlander's BS claims. But it does include accessories.

When you choose an ESC make sure that the BEC is "switch" mode not "linear" mode.     
Thats excellent Pat. (although it goes against the grain going to HK) how big an esc would I need?

Offline Patmac

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2017, 23:21:05 PM »
Bob, I'm using a Hobbywing Pentium 40 in the Unlimited. The name had to be changed for copyright reasons but I'm pretty certain this Turnigy Plush 40 is the same with a different badge. Although the spec says it's linear BEC I'm sure all Hobbywing 40A & over ESCs are switch mode & one of the reviews mentions that it is. So long as you don't load the motor over about 35A a 40A ESC gives plenty of leeway.

Re shopping from HK, if you only intend to get a motor & ESC it's worth comparing the postage from UK against EU warehouse. It does take longer from EU but is usualy much cheaper for low weight packages, except lipos.


 
Pax vobiscum

Offline itsme

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2017, 00:02:14 AM »
Thanks. Not down to pennies but cheaper is always good.

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Offline wilco

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2017, 16:17:35 PM »
Good luck with your project - it all seems to be heading in the right direction.

If space in the nose is a bit tight for the wires on an outrunner motor there is always the option of fitting an inrunner where the wires come out of the back (and there are no exposed rotating parts in the nose except the rear end of the shaft. I have several second-hand Jeti/Mega/Hacker motors which are inrunners and all have been OK. A bit less risky than buying second-hand IC motors, I think.

When you get to like this flying (and I think you will) I highly recommend an all-moulded glider - their performance is astounding. I have 2 Valenta models - Sabre hot-liner and Volcano. Like you I have a local field for electric soaring so each session I save two hours travelling/walking to the top of the hill and about  6 in diesel. Flights are usually 45 mins. to an hour with mainly soaring and a couple of aerobatic moments thrown in.

An occasional trip to the slope is still worthwhile, if only for the view.

Offline itsme

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2017, 10:51:30 AM »
Bob, I'm using a Hobbywing Pentium 40 in the Unlimited. The name had to be changed for copyright reasons but I'm pretty certain this Turnigy Plush 40 is the same with a different badge. Although the spec says it's linear BEC I'm sure all Hobbywing 40A & over ESCs are switch mode & one of the reviews mentions that it is. So long as you don't load the motor over about 35A a 40A ESC gives plenty of leeway.

Re shopping from HK, if you only intend to get a motor & ESC it's worth comparing the postage from UK against EU warehouse. It does take longer from EU but is usualy much cheaper for low weight packages, except lipos.
Ordered these Pat, thanks. Looking at spinners and props now-https://hobbyking.com/en_us/50mm-alloy-folding-propeller-spinner-with-4mm-5mm-6mm-shaft-adapters.html What do you think?

Offline Patmac

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2017, 22:02:50 PM »
Ordered these Pat, thanks. Looking at spinners and props now-https://hobbyking.com/en_us/50mm-alloy-folding-propeller-spinner-with-4mm-5mm-6mm-shaft-adapters.html What do you think?

Bob, I just spotted this post so might be to late but I've bought a number of similar ali spinners from HK & they've been fine. This one seems a bit big to me I'd have thought 40mm would have right for the Pzazz - best check against the plan.
One thing to watch for is the distance between the hinge pins - they vary quite a bit with different spinners & are often greater than intended for the prop blades. E.G. I have one glider with Graupner 10x6 blades that extend to 11" making it an 11x6.6 prop another has 9x5 blades extending to 9.75" - a 9.75x5.4 prop.
Pax vobiscum

Offline itsme

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2017, 09:05:43 AM »
Thanks Pat- I have not ordered spinner/prop yet as the motor etc is on a very slow boat from Europe. (I order stuff from Thomann in Germany and it comes near enough next day!) Good job I'm not in a hurry... knee deep in maintenance of other models. I shall re think the front end, problem will be cowling around the motor without increasing the fuselage diameter too much.


Offline itsme

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2017, 17:00:58 PM »
Right, got the motor and speed controller and postman arrived this lunch time with a nicely packed box from Stan Yeo- one MkII Sierra in its bits of balsa form. Nice rolled plan, wood selection looks good and laser parts look perfect. Well done Phoenix Model Products for quick service. Looking at the plan, first impression is that the plan view of the fuselage will need fattening at the nose to take the motor, the side view looks ok. Bit of a chicken and egg thing, I cant exactly see where the motor and bulkhead is going to go without having the spinner to size it, and unless I know where the motor is going I dont know the exact size of the spinner! It may have to be a bit bigger than 40mm depending on the shaft length. I shall re draw the front end.

Offline leckyBB

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2017, 22:43:56 PM »
itsme, can I suggest you have a look at Hoellein  https://www.hoelleinshop.com/All-you-need-for-electric-flight/Props-and-adapters/Spinner-cones/For-folding-props/Aeronaut-spinner-cones/Precision-cones-2-blade.htm?shop=hoellein_e&SessionId=&a=catalog&t=49302&c=27460&p=27460
I am using one of the Aeronaut precision cones with blades selected from their range to suit the motor of choice. These spinners start at 36mm diam so could help blend the nose more easily. You select the size which matches your motor shaft diameter.
Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.

Offline itsme

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2017, 23:18:18 PM »
Cheers Lecky.

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Offline itsme

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2017, 20:53:44 PM »
Well, now back from a rather chilly and windy week at Binham so getting my head around the model. In the picture attached, I am altering the woodwork to suit the motor. The vertical line through the 'AA battery pack' is the new bulkhead to take the cruciform motor mount. The horizontal pencil line above it is the tail datum, the one above that the wing datum. (LE point to TE point). There is around one degree of downthrust naturally, obviously I will need more, but just how much? Its not imperative to be perfect as I can always mix a bit of down elevator with throttle, but I'd like it to be pretty near. Any ideas? I thought possibly 3-5 degrees? I dont want to be altering it after its all finished, as the spinner will be blended to the fuselage.

Offline Patmac

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #21 on: September 22, 2017, 23:46:59 PM »
In an aerobatic model like this I'd use zero downthrust, then it's the same inverted.
I'd also not necessarily mix down with throttle, it's easy enough to hold it manualy. However if you do be careful when opening from low/closed throttle to full when near the ground because the elevator might react faster than the power. I once dived the model from high in a glide did a low fast pass & slammed in full throttle ... frantic yank on the stick just managed to save the prop touching the ground.
OTOH you could insert a delay in the mix - say 1 sec between opening throttle to down being activated. Also handy to insert a delay at the other end - say 1.5 secs between closing & elevator returning to neutral - makes transition between steep/vertical climb & level easier.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 23:49:37 PM by Patmac »
Pax vobiscum

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2017, 05:49:24 AM »
As Pat says - be careful about mixing down with throttle. I did this with a glider and, using it for the first time after quite I while, forgot that I needed to hold in a bit of 'up' on launching - damn near took my toes off!
Mike
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Offline itsme

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2017, 09:07:44 AM »
Thanks guys. The whole idea is to climb to height and then chop the throttle, so I suppose thats sensible. Right, now to start glueing...almost forgot how to build! Going to add a bit of extra strength to the wing spar here as this is going to be a hefty and fast bird. Stans old soarers were all foam wings and glass reinforcement, this is built up and sheeted.

Offline itsme

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2017, 11:38:06 AM »
Making progress at last. Went for a slightly larger spinner at 45mm and it seems to be right. Quite pleased at how I have managed to contain the motor in the curves. Its pretty much how I wanted it. Obviously I need some vents to remove the hot air from the motor, although the old Graupner glider I am using with a similar set up does not even get warm, as the motor is only used for short bursts.

Offline leckyBB

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2017, 12:00:36 PM »
You are moving forward quickly and that nose looks nicely blended.
I suspect you will only need around 10 to 20 seconds of motor burn so unless it is really warm you should be ok for cooling. If you do add it for safety something like a NACA inlet duct and 2 exhaust ports behind the battery made from half plastic spoons is a good low drag option. Used that a few times in the past.
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Offline itsme

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Re: electrifying a slope soarer.
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2017, 12:16:06 PM »
You are moving forward quickly and that nose looks nicely blended.
I suspect you will only need around 10 to 20 seconds of motor burn so unless it is really warm you should be ok for cooling. If you do add it for safety something like a NACA inlet duct and 2 exhaust ports behind the battery made from half plastic spoons is a good low drag option. Used that a few times in the past.
Thanks! Good thinking. The spinner has a cooling opening in it, too.


 

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