Topic: SE5 restoration

The problem that I can see with drilling the piano wire is that in order to do it you’ve had to anneal it so it will have lost its “spring” and may well bend on any less than perfect landing.

As for the lithoplate, a light smear of soap, let it dry and then heat until it turns very very dark brown almost black.  I certainly wouldn’t try to form a shape like that around a male mould, far easier to use a female mould. Rout the shape out from some “hard wood”, MDF is ideal, then use a length of hard balsa rounded on the end to gradually stretch the lithoplate into the routed out groove.

Ah, routing eh? I'll be needing a router. I can see why doing it as a female mould is a much better idea - I'll give it a go.

Giles

You don't really need a router, that was just a figure of speech.  MDF works easily with a Dremmel or something similar and sand paper.  As a matter of course I always use female moulds if at all possible.

Right, I'll be giving this a go later on.

My plan at the moment is to complete the small items that are outstanding which stop the model from flying, and then I hope to have a flight on Monday. Then I will be adding areas of details over the winter. This way I can take my time and enjoy doing this without putting myself under pressure to be producing a flying model!

Then I will be adding areas of details over the winter.

Famous last words.  I built a Mini convertible when I was a lad, said I will get it on the road and do all the trimming bits over the winter.  Well, I was having so much fun driving it that it never got finished and spent most of the time dropping in different engines finishing with a 1340cc tuned A series.  I did re-spray it every easter to make the outside look good for the summer but never got round to the carpet trim etc.
Whether you put more detail on or fly as is the main thing is have fun.

Hello all,

Last night I did a test assembly of the model as it is all but ready for its first flight! Exciting! I have to connect the lower ailerons to the top ones, finish painting on the markings on the rear of the fuselage and fit the wheels and it is ready to fly. Having said that I cannot look at it without seeing all the bits and pieces I want to add, like a decent exhaust. All in good time.




My pilot - Gwilym - is not sitting in his seat properly here!



The model is pictured here without its wheels. I have drilled the axle but I need to tidy up the brass sleeves that the wheels are held on with, they need a hole through them to correspond with the hole in the axle.



I'm quite pleased with my undercarriage. It is piano wire encased in soft balsa which was then stained and varnished.



Here is a view from behind - you can see how wide it is  -  as wide as a car! You can also see it is 10pm!

I am planning on re-painting this K - I've made a new template for this side, and the other side. It does look nice painted over the stitches though.



At present I am using the old litho cowel. I have an in-cowel silencer exiting at approximatley the same place as the exhaust would have been on this side. My plan is to replace this cowel with a new one, then new rocker covers will be made and fixed to the fuselage around the engine and stick through holes in the cowel - just like the full size. On the exhaust side I shall manufacture a litho plate exhaust headder like the one from my post yesterday. This will encase the plastic angle pipe around the exhaust from the in-cowel silencer.



I'll then make another for this side as a dummy to match.



But for my first flights this older set up will be just fine, although I may not be able to resist painting the grey pipe black!

This is my first attempt at working litho - and it is no good. I'll be doing this again!



View from underneath:

I checked my COG last night, and it is just about spot on, which I'm very pleased with. The DB plans show it on the upper wing approx 1/3 back from the leading edge.

I also weighed the model - it is just under 8kgs - which seems a little on the heavy side. My wing area is 2308.25 inches. Can  someone explain how I can work out my wing loading and put my mind at ease - will it fly???!!

Thats lookin the canine balerics.  ref wing loading (from the net):

How to Calculate Wing Loading

In this example, we will use an aircraft weighing 5-1/2 lbs (5 lbs 8 oz.) with 600 square inches of wing area.  Calculating the wing loading requires that the wing area be converted to square feet (ft2) and pounds to ounces.

    1)  Convert the area to square feet.  There are 144 (12 x 12) square inches in a square foot.

        600 in2 ÷ 144 = 4.17 ft2

    2)  Convert the total empty weight (ready-to-fly with no fuel) to ounces.  There are 16 ounces in a pound.

        5.5 lbs x 16 = 88 oz.

    3)  Divide the weight by the area:

        88 oz. ÷ 4.17 ft2 = 21.1 oz./ft2

Using round numbers, this gives the aircraft a wing-loading of 21 oz./ft2 or

You can perform the entire calculation in one shot using simple substitution:

    (Weight x 2304) ÷ Wing Area

    Where weight is in pounds and wing area is in square inches

Plugging the numbers from this example into the above formula gives us this:

    ( 5.5 x 2304 ) ÷ 600 = 21.1 oz./ft2

For multi-wing aircraft, divide the overall weight of the aircraft by the total wing area for all wings.


Flying an SE5a.......... I don't know what experience you have had with a bipe such as the SE5a but you will HAVE TO USE RUDDER.  Flying on ailerons only will cause 'adverse yaw'.  It will just side slip and carry on straight.
Weight........ I doubt if you will have problems although without reading back through your thread I'm not sure of your engine size.  Mine flew on a 22cc Zenoa and had plenty of power, would fly on 1/4 throttle floating around and will full throttle would loop (big loop) and slow roll, stall turns were very nice.  Take off's were great, open the throttle and it would fly itself off, landings were very slow and sedate.
As a suggestion why not dial in 25% rudder as a trial?  I used rudder aileron mix but still had to put more or less rudder in to get the scale like flying (perhaps mine was a banana!).

Good luck and keep up the good work.

OK, so my model weighs 8kgs or 17.5lbs or 282oz

It has a wing area of 2308.25 inches, or 16 feet sqaure.

Using these various calculations I arrive at a figure of 17oz per foot sqaure. Which apparently is OK.

The DB scale target weights is 7.25Kgs, and I had a quick chat with Eddie at DB who was very sure that I wasn't going to have a problem.

I'm using a Super Tigre 3000 engine.

I have of course flown this model before, this is a restoration not a complete rebuild. I am also very used to flying my smaller SE5 - and I use gobs of rudder on this. I did have some rudder mixed in with the ailerons, but now I have everything clean except for some exponential on the throws. I prefer to fly the model "clean" as it were, and use rudder and ailerons as required.

My apologies you seem to have everything well in hand.  Will read every post word for word in future 

I have just done a test run of the engine in the garden, and it fired up first time and runs very well. The new in cowl silencer is very good.

I've also fitted the wheels:



And the drilled holes through the axles is working well. A modified modeling pin acts as the retainer.



However. I have a problem. This is the last problem and if I can fix it in time I'll be flying on Monday.

I have fitted a carbon rod between the lower aileron and the upper one. When the servo moves and pushes the lower aileron it then pushes the upper aileron via the rod. It moves UP just fine, but when moving down there is a problem. I was just trial fitting things so the carbon rod was not fixed, and when I moved the aileron DOWN it pulled itself out of the upper aileron - so the upper aileron cannot move down as much as the lower one.

See pictures below






Is this because the relative offset of the pivot on each aileron is not the same? Perhaps I need to move the upper aileron pivot backwards so it is the same distance from the pivot as the lower one?

Incidentally - how should I fix this carbon rod - should it be glued into the metal end piece? There is a hole in the metal screw adjuster section, so I could drill a hole through and bind it with wire and glue? What is best?

shouldn't they be linked at the TE? thats how i've always seen it done.
need to be the same distance from the hinge line

cyno it in, it works fine for surface pushrods i use.

My SE5 had its maiden flight on Monday! Very exciting and scary at the same time.

I had four or five flights and it is all in one piece. The wind was a little blustery but the model flies well. I have some minor teething problems which I shall have to address.

Firstly the engine overheated due to poor air circulation. I removed the front of the cowel which stopped this but really spoils the look of the front of the model. I think I'll try to build some small scale-looking air scoops into the top of the cowel and hope they channel enough air into the top of the engine compartment around the head. I do really want to build some nice scale radiators but I'll have to work out how to get enough air in the front and around the head.

The next problem was my in-cowel dustbin silencer. I took off the rubber 90 degree pipe and immediatley got more revs from the engine, and the next flight was better as a result. This also means I need to rethink my exhaust plan. Ideally I need to get hold of a genuine Super Tigre 3000 exhuast and try it - does anyone know where I might find one?

I fixed the linkage probem of my last post by moving where the upper end of the rod met the aileron - and epoxy seemed to do just fine holding the rob in place.

The other teething problems were the rubbers on my main undercarriage snapped  -  I think I need to wrap lengths of rubber bands around the axles to make a stronger bind  -  one single O ring was not up to the job, I don't know why I thought it would be! Also - my tail skid came off - I need to find some stronger hinges. The Kavan white plastic ones I had didn't have the strength so I need something a little more substantial.

Other than that, the COG was good, the trims were only slightly out, it looked good in the sky, it was fun. I am really looking forward to getting all the other details added, but I'm also looking forward to flying it again, hopefully in less wind.

I'll be updating this build with more pictures as I add details and fix these little problems, and I hope to YouTube a video of the first flights.

Cheers,

Giles

Your overheating problem........... may I suggest you make a cowl that fits over the head of the engine within 2mm so as to force the air through the fins.  Always have a bigger outlet to inlet air holes.  The exhaust is creating a lot of heat within the cowl to so that needs cooling as well as the engine.  Don't forget to cool the crank and not just the head.
You can buy 2-3mm bungee cord that works well on the undercarriage, as it has a woven outer it is less likely to break and still gives flex.

It all looks very good and I bet you're very pleased with the successful maiden flight - congratulations.

Bungee cord is sold at yacht chandlers and, believe it or not they exist to serve inland sailors too, so living away from the sea doesn't mean there isn't one near you.  I used to use all sizes for various control set ups on my racing dinghies so it's been around a while.

Geoff

Congrats on the maiden flight Giles I'm sure you're going to love it.

With regard to U/C springing.  I have used two methods on the Pup.  First I used loads (15-20) horse platting bands which are fairly thin, square section and about an inch in diameter.   They were OK although they did start to perish after a  lot of use.  About £1-50 for a bag of 1000s at the local saddlery.   Method 2, the current one, is a single turn of 3mm bungee as mentioned above.   Benefits are that it looks right, 'cos that's what they use on the real one albeit bigger and it's dead easy to buy.   Homebase and B&Q do it by the metre.

Alan B 

Thanks for the replies,

I'll get some bungee cord - that sounds like it will look nice and work well!

As far as the overheating goes, this is tied in with the exhaust issue. I have a dustbin silencer I bought from Mick at World Engines. It is possible it is not working very well. One of the very experienced modellers at our field thought that in order to have my Super Tigre 3000 running well I should really use the original exhaust. I spoke to John D Haytree, who was a delight to deal with, and he has given me the dimensions of the original exuast which is about 40 quid. I'm hoping there will be enough room in my engine bay for this to fit. We'll see. Then I need to sort out the overheating. I'll cut some nice looking vents in the top of the cowel, and I can make up some litho ducts to help direct the air arund the head and then it will be down to some trial and error.

Here are some pics from my flight on Monday







Cheers for now,

Giles

See:

http://www.rcmf.co.uk/4um/index.php?topic=42826.0

For exhaust discussion

Nice restoration job!  I have been following this thread with interest. Well done again.

I flew the model again yesterday.

I had fixed the tail skid and put new rubber on the main u/c suspension, I had adjusted the cooling for the engine by fitting a baffle on the lower part of the front of the fuselage to force air through the top of the engine compartment.

I had about seven flights and one powered landing. Bl88dy thing. The tailskid broke again, the rubber on the u/c snapped. It had so many dead sticks, I just got the first landing back on the strip and then after that I kept it high. It would run fine for a while, full throttle take offs and it climbed well - better now that rubber tube has gone off the exhaust. I would throttle back at altitude and it flew very well on about 2/3rds throttle. Then about 5 minutes later it would cut. No idea why.

I gradually removed all the front baffles etc that I had added so it was flying like the maiden flights in case it was an overheating issue. I don't think this was the problem.

There was a chap there with a 92 inch Tiger Moth with a 150 Laser 4 stroke. This model weighed 9Kgs and this engine was more than enough to fly it. And it sounded lovely. If the problem causing this is the dustbin exhaust I can check by fitting the old exhaust that it had, I should have taken it up with me so I could test it. I don't really want to spend more money on a 2-stroke exhaust and I'm wondering about fitting a Laser 4-stroke and having the reliability and nice sound of a Laser engine. I don't want to crash the model because of engine failure.

The only engines I use are Lasers, they are ultra reliable, use "cheap" straight fuel and as you say they really sound right for this type of model.  An added plus is that they are very forgiving concerning the exhaust design which means they can be hidden away on virtually any model.

Having spent this much time and effort, not to mention cash, on your restoration you know it makes sense to invest in a Laser!

If the sound is not a major issue you could consider something like a cheap zenoa 22-26cc petrol.  I had the 22 in mine and was perfect power for it.  I have seen them sold 2dn hand for under £100. I had no cooling issues and the fuel lasted forever and is reasonably priced (Gordon Brown permitting).

I had a chat with Geoff at Laser engines. He suggests the 200v for my SE5. It is quite an expensive item, but does not need much justification!

I am going to try to go and see them this Saturday morning with my fuselage and see how it fits. It will take me about 1 hour to get there but I think it is worth it as I will be able to get the best advice on in the installation if I decide to get the engine.

I can't help wondering if an exhaust for the 200v could be made to work just like the real SE5 and run down the sides of the fuselage - that would be great fun.

Grahame is right, I have spent lots of time and money on this model, and I know it isn't too much work to change an engine from one model to another, so an investment in this engine now would mean I could use it in many other large models in the future.

Oh dear, it is a lot of money!

Well done on a successful bunch of flights Giles.........teething troubles are inevitable, especially on the larger, more complex models.

Personally, I doubt the dustbin muffler is the cause of your problems............I've run many a glo engine over the years on dustbins, and though not as quiet, I've never had any major hassles. The big Super Tigers were never the easiest of motors to get running reliably.....the key is the correct fuel, plug, and adequate cooling. As has been mentioned, you need an outlet area around 4 times the size of the inlet area ahead of the cylinder. No matter how much cool air is coming in, it's only air within 2 or 3mm of the fins thats doing you any good. Once it's passed through the fins (and expanded) if it can't get out easily, this is the normal cause of your problems 5 minutes into a flight. I'd suggest maybe cutting a number of (non-scale) louvers above and behind the cylinder to allow all this hot air to escape.

If you do choose to change your engine......I'm 100% behind 'norfolk' in his suggestion about a petrol engine. Zenoah's are incredibly reliable, easy to hand start, run on fuel that's £5 a gallon, chuck out hardly any gunk after a full days flying, and if correctly prop'd and silenced, can sound perfectly acceptable in a model like this (certinly better than the ST 3000......each to their own about the 'lovely' noise of a laser ) May I also bring up the fact that laser V twins are NOT the easiest of motors to set up....mainly because they have 2 separate carbs. There are the die hard Laser fans who say they are the best thing since sliced bread, but on a personal not, I've yet to see one run as reliably/easily as any petrol engine I've owned. This in itself is as good a reason not to use on in a model you value as much as this one.

Just my 2p's worth.

Keep up the good work................

Phil

congrats   not many would have made it to the end of such a lengthy re-furb as this,    looks damned fine sir!!  and petrol,   yes please,  every time

Another vote for the Zenoah from me Giles.

My 26 has run for something like 25 hours now over 120 flights in my Pup.  The engine is dusty not oily and never misses a beat.  You won't need full power most of the time and, as Phil said, the sound is quite acceptable.   Much as I'd love a four-stroke, I'd rather save some money and have more aeroplanes! 

Alan B

Giles.

Something to consider.................

I've been running Zenoah's (38, 45 and 62's) for 11 years now, I've lost count of the number of flights, but it's well over 700....and in all that time, I have only ever had ONE dead stick....and that was on a new 62 that managed to blow a crank case gasket apart after a couple of the main cylinder bolts came loose (partially my fault, I neglected to check the bolts after the test flight) In 'normal' running, I have NEVER had a Zenoah stop on me......................they may look rather agricultural and basic, they aren't the lightest motor out there, and others will produce more power....but in a slow flying, short nosed biplane, with a BIG cowl to hide said lump........they really take A LOT of beating.

Many thanks for the replies chaps.

I understand the concern over the Laser V as far as complexity goes. I've never been able to instinctivley know what is wrong with an engine, unlike some of the older modellers who seem to be able to diagnose a problem in another persons model whilst it is flying 300 yards away!

I have always liked 4 stroke engines. There is a distinct possibility that the V will be too wide for the SE5, in which case the bigger single cylinder engine might be a possibility.

I have never seen a petrol engine working in a model, but I suppose I need to learn about them in order to make an informed decision.

Giles.

If you'd like to give me a bell sometime, I'll happily pass on as much info and advise regarding petrol engines as I can. They are far from a black art, and once the basics as mastered (nothing complicated at all).....you'll wish you'd done it years ago.

Phil

Giles,

If you are in the north herts / beds area yo are more than welcome to come and see my Pup flying or, even better, how about the Old Warden Fly-In?   I have a feeling there may be one or two petrol engines around!

Alan B

Hello all,

I have taken the plunge and treated myself to a Laser 200V. I visited the Laser factory in Hemel Hempstead on Saturday and trial fitted the engine into the SE5. It fits very well. Very exciting. It looks great too. I'll post some pics tomorrow.

I need to make an engine mount for it as it will mount further forwards in the engine bay than the old Super Tigre. It has been suggested that I should make a mount out of hardwood. Can people suggest what type of wood to use for this?

Cheers,

Giles

Could do with a photo of said engine and the whole it needs to fill to get an idea of what type /arrangement of munt is needed before we can comment.................


Phil

Behold! A thing of beauty! Few words required. Laser 200V.

I dig the funky lighting ::cc ::cc

drool...........

Now that really makes me jealous; Laser engines truly are beautiful pieces of engineering and so compact they can be usually be fitted fully cowled.  In my opinion and that of many if not most scale modellers they are the perfect answer for any scale model.

The installation of this engine is different to the old Super Tigre that preceded it. It is much further forwards in the engine bay as the carbs and exhaust are behind the cylinder heads.  Conveniently the throttle servo is on the same side as the ST, and is a joint linkage running across the back of the engine to the other carb.





This is good from a cooling point of view as I can baffle the front of the engine bay and force all the air through the cooling fins.  I'll cut away a little of the black front section on either side of the front of the fuselage just in front of the cylinders where they are masked here, and block off most of the rest. The cut out visible on the left is where the mixture adjuster went for the ST.



There is a gap of around 40mm from the back of the block where the mounting holes are and the bulkhead. It is here I need to make up an engine mount and I'd appreciate some advice on this. The chap at Laser engines said use hard wood, so I presume I'll make up a laminated block of wood to go between the engine and the bulkhead and run some significant bolts through this to the other side of the bulkhead.

The other thing to think about is the exhaust. I can simply point them straight down out of the bottom of the engine bay (which is completely open) as shown below, or.....



...I can point them upwards and try again for a scale type exhaust. As you can see below the old cowl has the right approximate locations of the exhausts, below the dummy rocker covers, in just about the right place for me to make litho plate exhaust headders to hide the silicon 90 degree pipes. I wonder if this will reduce any power from the engine?




To start with I can take the easy route and fire the exhaust gasses out of the bottom and think about a nice scale exhaust. I'd love to see the exhaust smoke coming down each side of the fuselage, although it would make a bit of a mess!!

Anyway, can I have some suggestions please on making an engine mount for this delectable piece of engineering. I cannot wait to hear it running, I'll have to make a video clip so you chaps can hear it too!

I make pictures of engines for a living, and a touch of blue light never goes amiss! It is almost too good to use, I would like it on a stand on my desk!

I make pictures of engines for a living, and a touch of blue light never goes amiss! It is almost too good to use, I would like it on a stand on my desk!

I agree, but what a sin not hearing it!