SE5 restoration

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Hi there
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[stearman]

Alan et all,

Thanks for your thoughts thus far,

I like the idea of having a jig to keep the two wing halves in the correct poition relative to each other. If I remember correctly most of the rigging at the centre of the aircraft is attatched to the top of the cabanes above the fuselage, or at the wing root of the bottom wing, meaning that to take the wings off leaving two centre sections on the fuselage most of the rigging will need to be unclipped. One benefit of this is that the rigging will help keep the wing section on, but I'll be left with the two wing halves with rigging flapping about - but I could add a method of retaining the rigging in its position on the plywood jig as suggested.

By the way - cabanes are above a fuselage and interplane struts are out on the wings? Is this right?

Geoff asked about PC10 paint - I'm using the Warbirds PC10 - I trust it will be a correct colour. I have yet to decide a colour scheme other than it will be a traditional markings SE5, I'd like to do some more research on this.

My progress this week - finishing off small bits of fuselage construction - time consuming. Working out how my closed loop systems will work for the rudder and tail skid, I've made a new servo tray for the rudder and tail skid servos. I've also covered my rudder with the Poly-C and Nylon covering, it was wet when I finished last night, so I'll see how it is when I get home. Pics to follow chaps I promise!

Giles

Your interpretation of interplane struts and cabanes is correct
Stearman

[gilesfordcrush]

Hello all,

A productive evening in the garage! I've been looking through my research for a colour scheme

SE5 restoration

And I found good refences for the cockpit, including:

SE5 restoration

Which will be good for working out where the instruments go. I'm still undecided on the colour scheme. I'll probably end up painting it all in the PC10/Linnen with standard roundels and then make a decision.

I've started recovering. I'm new to this, so I thought I'd start on a small part - the rudder. This is nylon material with Poly-C. Early indications are good, it is easy to work with, but as it is a little cold I'm not able to get the coats of poly-c on as quickly as I could if it was hot!

SE5 restoration

I've also done some sheeting:

SE5 restoration

Again, something I'm new to, but it seems to be OK with epoxy holding it on.

I've also made a new servo tray for the rudder and tail skid servos

SE5 restoration

And here it is mocked up in place, the cotton string was so I could work out if there was enough room for the cable runs

SE5 restoration

I've also made a new servo tray for the elevator servo which I've installed towards the rear of the fuselage. My new Dremel is very nice for cutting the holes for the servos:

SE5 restoration

I'm waiting for an order from DB scale to finish off the instalation of the rudder/tail skid closed loop, but I'm hoping to have this and the evelvator servos and links all done in the next few days. Then I'll be covering all the fuslage and tail plane and working on the cockpit detail - which I'm really looking forward to.

The engine end is all complete apart from final varnishing for fuel proofing, which I'm putting off until I've sheeted the sides of the fuselage around the engine so I can get maximum fuel proofing interity!

[gilesfordcrush]

I'm after some advice on a good covering method - if you had a horizontal stabiliser to cover - like this:

SE5 restoration

Would it be best to cover it in one sheet shaped like this:

SE5 restoration

folded over from the back so the two edges meet on the leading edge, and then the green curved end would have "V" shapes cut in it to help it bend around the curve of the end of the wood.

OR:

Should I cover the build up area in one rectangular piece and the green area with a seperate piece of covering?

I'm using nylon with poly-c.

Thanks,

Giles

[Walts]

Hi Giles,
       I wouldn't personally try and cover a stab in one go. I'd cover the bottom first, get it nice and taut and the edges bedded down all around, and then do the top piece with the front edge slightly over lapping the bottom pieces L/E. I also would prefer to dope the nylon on initially at least. Just doping the edges to stick them down first, it will go off a lot quicker and will help to shrink the nylon taut more than PolyC and wont soak in to the wood anywhere near as much. Then by all means go back to polyC if you wish.
I would also do the whole side of the stab in one piece (including the curved tip) otherwise you will have a seam running across it.
That has been my method when using nylon in the past, I've just tried Sig Koverall which is similar to nylon very light with no adhesive coating on it, but is heat shrinkable. So you could use the above method plus a heat gun to shrink it around the tips, i found this makes a very tidy job of it. These are my thoughts, but see what others think first

Cheers Walts

[Pup Cam]

Giles,

Always a mistake trying to do it with a single piece.  It's like wallpapering round corners - you know you shouldn't but you always think you will get away with it and it never works!

I'm with Walts on this one.

Alan B

[alan c]

GILES,  did you get all the piccys on the email this time?      if you didnt, i will burn you a disk, and post the damned thing!!!

[gilesfordcrush]

Hello all,

Thanks for the replies. I like the idea of using the dope to stick the covering on first and then use Poly-C later. What type of dope would you suggest Walts? Where would I get it? Is the idea to paint the dope onto the edges of the area to be covered and then lay the nylon over it and pin down and pull taught, and then once dry apply the Poly-C? Would you expect to be able to shrink the Nylon with a heat gun like the Sig Koverall?

I've only used dope once before in my life, when I was about 10 years old, funnily enough also on an SE5, but this was a Kiel Kraft (sp?) model, and the wings bent as I used too much of the stuff, so I'm a little wary of it. Howver, I'm not going to all this effort just to have a poor quality of covering!

Giles

[Walts]

Hi Giles,
      Not really sure wether i should post this or not, and i dare say i might get my bones jumped on (health & safety and all that!) But here goes;

I have never pinned a covering in place but if it works then carry on I have always used my hands to work the covering taut and bed the edges, I find I've got much more control over the covering and feel when the dope has gone off and gripped the covering. This is the bit i was worried about posting, as lots of products advise to avoid contact with skin, wash immediately, etc etc. But I've got hands like old leather and it ain't bothered me yet .
Now that bits out the way, nylon is going to take a bit more sticking than tissue so yes i would paint the edge's first with neat dope. That will be dry probably before you get the nylon laid on, but now dope through the nylon,this will reactivate the dope on the frame a little. edges only, and pull taut working at opposite ends at the same time. 'I' work the nylon in an outward direction with 'my' thumbs, pushing the dope through the weave and like i say i will feel it go off and grip. Then I'll work along the other opposite edges, try and ensure there is no obvious slack showing. Now you can do the other side the same, it's hard to write, it's just something you pick up as you go, obviously you got to be careful on the second side not to upset the first.
Once the piece is covered i would shrink it with a 50/50 dope thinners mix (shrinking dope) over the whole surface, and yes watch for warps. Now you could either give it a couple more coats of the 50/50 dope or use your polyc, but put the polyc on as thin as possible and build up the required sheen with several coats.
Oh and i wouldn't try shrinking the nylon with a heat gun.............or at least i never have.
Right as i say thats how I do it. If others would like to lodge strong objections (h & S) please feel free to do so

Cheers Walts   

[stearman]

I Always used to dampen the nylon before doping into place, if you are not worried about the dope blooming it helps it shrink when dry. Not reccommended for coloured nylon
Stearman

[gilesfordcrush]

Hello all,

I've been sheeting one side of the fuselage, and I'm exited that the model is starting to look a bit more like an SE5.

SE5 restoration

Once I've done the same to the other side I'm going to be able to add the cockpit detail, which will be fun. I've also been applying coats of varnish to the engine bay and fuel tank area.

SE5 restoration

I've also covered the vertical stabiliser. I did this using just poly-c and the nylon covering. I was careful to gently pull the nylon out as I worked my way around, and there is a good finish with no wrinkles. I'm tempted to press on with this method, although I should probably get some dope and give that method a try also.

Where would I get the best dope from?

[greyhead]

Just found this thread, very interesting.  You may find my SE5a thread of interest especially as you’re just contemplating starting the cockpit; the instrument panel detailing begins on page 11.

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If printouts of the instruments would help let me know and I’ll send you the jpegs.

Incidentally I came to the same decision as you with regard to the elevators, the closed loop system as per full size in impractical, I’ll be using push rods and dummy cables.

[Pup Cam]

Welcome aboard greyhead.

Thanks for the scale-model forum link.   Drat that's more building time gone .....

Anyway, checked out your build thread as the SE5A has always been a favourite aeroplane of mine.   
As to your aeroplane I can only use the now, thanks to Windows Vista, much over used word:

           Wow!

Absolutely first class.   

Alan B

[gilesfordcrush]

Hello all,

It has been quite a while since I posted an update, but I have been working hard on the model. I wanted to wait until I had some good progress to show.

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20001.jpg">

I have finished covering the rear half of the fuselage using poly-c and nylon material.

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20002.jpg">

I'm pleased with the results, you can see in the picture above there is nice detail where the covering is pulled around the ribs of the tailplane.

I learnt as I went along. I am going to strip the rudder off and do that again. It was the first piece I did and it shows!

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20006.jpg">

In the picture below you can see some of the old paint showing through the new covering. Remember, the back of the fuselage is quite old - the woodwork has been repaired in some places, but there is old wood there too.

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20003.jpg">

I'm not going to do any work on the cockpit at the moment. I've ordered a full body pilot, and until I have him I'm going to press on with the wings. Also - I think that until I have fitted and covered the wings, made the undercarriage and checked the engine and radio gear installations I'd rather get big lumps of work done rather than getting carried away on adding detail which I will enjoy all the more when the model has most of the work complete.

It is nice to look back to pictures like this and see how far I have come!

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/se5%20end%20of%20stripdown_%20054.jpg">

Moving on to working on the wings. You can see in the picture below I have cut the two outer parts of the lower wing away from the centre section. I achieved this using a very new, very sharp and very large saw! The wings came apart very easily!

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20005.jpg">

You can see below I'm offering up the wing to the centre section.

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20008.jpg">

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20001%7E0.jpg">

The plan is to use DB scale wing retaining clips.

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20003%7E0.jpg">

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20004%7E0.jpg">

So at the moment I'm working on fitting these to the wings and the piano wire is fitted to the centre section of the wings. I'm amazed at how strong these retaining clips are - I'll get another picture once these are complete and working.

I mentioned at the start of this restoration that I wanted to introduce some diahedral to wings, this will be set up when I fix in the piano wires for this retaining system. I was delighted to find that when I mocked up the ammount of diahedral the ammount of gap produced on the lower side of the wing is not so great that I need to re-work the mating faces of the wings.

So - onwards! I'm hoping this model will be complete and flying sometime in June.

As ever thoughts, comments and suggestions very much appreciated.

Giles

[gilesfordcrush]

Also,

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This model that Grahame is making is in inspiration! Of a much higher quality than I could hope to achieve! Have a look.

Giles

[idigbo]

Those DB wing fixings are great aren't they. I used some on the restoration of a Hawker Hind. I didn't want the spring steel retainer sticking out so I bent another return on them so they stayed just below the covering. The removal was the same, but instead of applying pressure to the external retainer steel, you simply pressed the covering slightly to remove the wings.

In your picture of the DB retainer, the new bend is as far up the steel as the wing thickness allows, with the bent steel folding to the right.

Its looking great by the way

Ian.

[The prang master]

Wow, if this is your first build I cant wait for your next few projects

[gilesfordcrush]

I've finished re-working the lower wings - and here they are attatched to the fuselage:

SE5 restoration

And here is the diahedral more clearly.

SE5 restoration

The DB wing clips work very well, almost too well! I'm a little concerned about releasing them to get the wings off, I don't want to have to leave a hole in the fabric under each wing. I'll have to work on this. One thought is to have a small hole in the leading or trailing edge of the wing into which I insert a long "key" of piano wire with lugs placed where the release clips are, so once inserted it can be turned to hold the clips open and allow me to slide the wings off. This might be over complication though! We'll see.

I also have my pilot!

SE5 restoration

SE5 restoration

Here he is wedged into the cockpit. I was worried he looked a little big, but I think he is just right. I got him from You are not allowed to view links.
Register or Login - he was about 30 quid, and I'm very pleased with him. He'll get a name once I have picked my colour scheme!

[gilesfordcrush]

I have a question. This is my upper wing centre section.

SE5 restoration

When this model had single piece wings this part of the upper wing was held onto the cabanes with brass tubes at the rear and screw on saddle clamps at the front. I've still got the brass tubes attatched at the rear:

SE5 restoration

This shot also shows one of the wing retaining piano wires fixed through the centre section.

At the front the saddle clamps were a little unconvincing as the self tappers had to be screwed on and off everytime the model was used. I wanted to have stronger method of fixing the centre section, whilst retaining the option of taking the centre section off if I needed to.

SE5 restoration

In this picture you can see the plywood strip I've attatched just behind the leading edge of the centre section - this is fixed to the wings and will have captive nuts drilled through it, so an identical piece of plywood can lie underneath fixed permanantley to the cabanes.

SE5 restoration

This lower piece of ply will be held to the cabanes using the same brass sleeve method as the rear fixings. My question is - what is the best method of holding these brass sleeves onto the plywood strip? I'm thinking if I drill a line of tiny holes through the ply I can bind the brass on using copper wire, and then cover this with epoxy. Or, I could solder the brass sleeve to a strip of brass sheet and then wrap this all around the plywood strip.

Any thoughts chaps?

[greyhead]

Personally I’d go with the strongest method you can devise, it’s a bad idea to scrimp on anything to do with cabanes.  The brass strip sounds a good idea to me; I certainly wouldn’t try to bind the tubes to the edge of the ply.

[Winchweight]

What's that under the tarp? 

[biggles124]

Wild guess at what is under the tarp but I think it is a Mark 1 Ford Capri 

[gilesfordcrush]

I've looked through the construction manual for the model, and the rear brass tubes are held on with binding. The idea is that they sit on the plywood with a thin line of holes down each side of the brass tube. Copper wire is bound tightly around the tube through the hole, and then epoxied together. This sounds OK - and probably strong enough.

If I solder the brass tubes to a thin brass sheet that is as wide and long as the ply strip I would need to be sure the soldering was strong enough to hold the tubes to the brass sheet, never mind making sure the brass sheet was held onto the ply.

[gilesfordcrush]

It is a Mk1 Capri - my last big project! 1969 3.0GT XLR to be precise!

SE5 restoration

I've spent many days lying underneath this with weld in my hair!

If you're interested:

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[greyhead]

If DB says that binding is OK then I’m sure it is but I like to make doubly sure that the wings don’t fall off!!

I would take the brass strip around the tubes to act as a fail safe so you’re not relying on the solder, epoxy the lot to the ply and as an extra safe guard use the bolts that go into the captive nuts to hold everything together.

SE5 restoration

[Winchweight]

Very nice car. I'm more of a Jag man myself, but that is a worthy project. 

[gilesfordcrush]

Grahame, I see what you mean. However, my brass tubes have to be under the ply, not on the ends. This complicates wrapping the brass sheet around.

I have had an idea though. There is rigging that runs from the inside edge of the top of cabanes to the top of the fuselage. Rather than attatching these wires to the metal of the top of the cabanes I could create solid fixing points on this strip of ply, next, and in addition to the brass tubes. This would help prevent the top wing coming off!

What do you think? I think I'll try the binding method and see how convincing it is.

Also - I've just been out to the garage (sorry - hangar) and mounted all the wings on, even though the front of the top section is just resting on the cabanes. It looks good. Although there seems to be less diahedral than I was envisaging! I expect some rigging will help.

By the way, I have quite a few photocpied articles and suchlike about the SE5 - would you like me to make some copies for you? There is quite a bit on squadron markings etc, and also a fascinating article about the rebuild of the Shuttleworth SE5.

[greyhead]

Giles

Sorry, I'd got the wrong idea from looking at the photos; if the tubes go under the ply then the binding will not be taking the lifting force only holding the tubes in position, which should be OK.  There should be 5º dihedral ex works which was sometimes reduced to 3º or 4º in the field.

If you would email me those articles I'd be very grateful indeed.

Grahame
 
EDIT: From the articles Giles sent me it would appear that the correct dihedral angle should be 3º 20’.  It just goes to show that you should never believe all you read on the Internet!

[gilesfordcrush]

These article are all old photocpies - I'm happy to post them if you like. There is even a list of the aircraft 30 or so people used - ie the serial number of the plane. E-mail me your address if you like.

I'll get binding in the morning, check the diahedral and rigging and get a picture! Off for a curry now!

[gilesfordcrush]

I've assembled both upper and lower wings with some of the old rigging wires. I'm not seeing as much diahedral as I had when I was glueing in the bars that each wing slides on. What seems to be happening is that the weight of the upper wing coming down the outer interplane strut is pushing the lower wing down, and due to the flexibility of the wings this is reducing the diahedral.

I'm wondering how much I can pull the lower wing up using the rigging? I think I'll draw a sketch or mark up a picture to illustrate the problem and get everyones thoughts.

As far as the dicsussion on the brass tubes, I've decided to get the rigging sorted out as this does not depend on the mounting of the centre wing. I can do that bit later.

Giles

[gilesfordcrush]

Here are some pictures of the model with the top wings on and some basic rigging:

SE5 restoration

SE5 restoration

It looks prommising, but where has all my diahedral gone? It is a little better than it was, but nothing like as much as it should be!

What is happening is the top wing is pushing the lower wing down and reducing the diahedral. I'm thinking that I can rectify this by using the rigging wires to pull the lower wings up again.

In the picture below I've marked the wire to use. It runs up to the top of the cabane. There is then another wire that runs to the top of the fuselage. Do we think this is the right way of fixing this problem? There are two wires per side like this, on at the front which is the one marked in red, and then there is another at the rear of the wing.

SE5 restoration

SE5 restoration

Any thoughts?