Topic: SE5 restoration

Just found this thread, very interesting.  You may find my SE5a thread of interest especially as you’re just contemplating starting the cockpit; the instrument panel detailing begins on page 11.

http://www.scale-models.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2417

If printouts of the instruments would help let me know and I’ll send you the jpegs.

Incidentally I came to the same decision as you with regard to the elevators, the closed loop system as per full size in impractical, I’ll be using push rods and dummy cables.

Welcome aboard greyhead.

Thanks for the scale-model forum link.   Drat that's more building time gone .....

Anyway, checked out your build thread as the SE5A has always been a favourite aeroplane of mine.   
As to your aeroplane I can only use the now, thanks to Windows Vista, much over used word:

           Wow!

Absolutely first class.   

Alan B

Hello all,

It has been quite a while since I posted an update, but I have been working hard on the model. I wanted to wait until I had some good progress to show.

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20001.jpg">

I have finished covering the rear half of the fuselage using poly-c and nylon material.

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20002.jpg">

I'm pleased with the results, you can see in the picture above there is nice detail where the covering is pulled around the ribs of the tailplane.

I learnt as I went along. I am going to strip the rudder off and do that again. It was the first piece I did and it shows!

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20006.jpg">

In the picture below you can see some of the old paint showing through the new covering. Remember, the back of the fuselage is quite old - the woodwork has been repaired in some places, but there is old wood there too.

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20003.jpg">

I'm not going to do any work on the cockpit at the moment. I've ordered a full body pilot, and until I have him I'm going to press on with the wings. Also - I think that until I have fitted and covered the wings, made the undercarriage and checked the engine and radio gear installations I'd rather get big lumps of work done rather than getting carried away on adding detail which I will enjoy all the more when the model has most of the work complete.

It is nice to look back to pictures like this and see how far I have come!

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/se5%20end%20of%20stripdown_%20054.jpg">

Moving on to working on the wings. You can see in the picture below I have cut the two outer parts of the lower wing away from the centre section. I achieved this using a very new, very sharp and very large saw! The wings came apart very easily!

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20005.jpg">

You can see below I'm offering up the wing to the centre section.

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20008.jpg">

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20001%7E0.jpg">

The plan is to use DB scale wing retaining clips.

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20003%7E0.jpg">

[img]http://www.rcmf.co.uk/gallery/albums/userpics/14651/small_se5_march11%20004%7E0.jpg">

So at the moment I'm working on fitting these to the wings and the piano wire is fitted to the centre section of the wings. I'm amazed at how strong these retaining clips are - I'll get another picture once these are complete and working.

I mentioned at the start of this restoration that I wanted to introduce some diahedral to wings, this will be set up when I fix in the piano wires for this retaining system. I was delighted to find that when I mocked up the ammount of diahedral the ammount of gap produced on the lower side of the wing is not so great that I need to re-work the mating faces of the wings.

So - onwards! I'm hoping this model will be complete and flying sometime in June.

As ever thoughts, comments and suggestions very much appreciated.

Giles

Also,

http://www.scale-models.co.uk/showthread.php?t=2417

This model that Grahame is making is in inspiration! Of a much higher quality than I could hope to achieve! Have a look.

Giles

Those DB wing fixings are great aren't they. I used some on the restoration of a Hawker Hind. I didn't want the spring steel retainer sticking out so I bent another return on them so they stayed just below the covering. The removal was the same, but instead of applying pressure to the external retainer steel, you simply pressed the covering slightly to remove the wings.

In your picture of the DB retainer, the new bend is as far up the steel as the wing thickness allows, with the bent steel folding to the right.

Its looking great by the way

Ian.

Wow, if this is your first build I cant wait for your next few projects

I've finished re-working the lower wings - and here they are attatched to the fuselage:



And here is the diahedral more clearly.



The DB wing clips work very well, almost too well! I'm a little concerned about releasing them to get the wings off, I don't want to have to leave a hole in the fabric under each wing. I'll have to work on this. One thought is to have a small hole in the leading or trailing edge of the wing into which I insert a long "key" of piano wire with lugs placed where the release clips are, so once inserted it can be turned to hold the clips open and allow me to slide the wings off. This might be over complication though! We'll see.

I also have my pilot!




Here he is wedged into the cockpit. I was worried he looked a little big, but I think he is just right. I got him from http://www.thepilotpeople.co.uk/ - he was about 30 quid, and I'm very pleased with him. He'll get a name once I have picked my colour scheme!

I have a question. This is my upper wing centre section.



When this model had single piece wings this part of the upper wing was held onto the cabanes with brass tubes at the rear and screw on saddle clamps at the front. I've still got the brass tubes attatched at the rear:



This shot also shows one of the wing retaining piano wires fixed through the centre section.

At the front the saddle clamps were a little unconvincing as the self tappers had to be screwed on and off everytime the model was used. I wanted to have stronger method of fixing the centre section, whilst retaining the option of taking the centre section off if I needed to.



In this picture you can see the plywood strip I've attatched just behind the leading edge of the centre section - this is fixed to the wings and will have captive nuts drilled through it, so an identical piece of plywood can lie underneath fixed permanantley to the cabanes.



This lower piece of ply will be held to the cabanes using the same brass sleeve method as the rear fixings. My question is - what is the best method of holding these brass sleeves onto the plywood strip? I'm thinking if I drill a line of tiny holes through the ply I can bind the brass on using copper wire, and then cover this with epoxy. Or, I could solder the brass sleeve to a strip of brass sheet and then wrap this all around the plywood strip.

Any thoughts chaps?

Personally I’d go with the strongest method you can devise, it’s a bad idea to scrimp on anything to do with cabanes.  The brass strip sounds a good idea to me; I certainly wouldn’t try to bind the tubes to the edge of the ply.

What's that under the tarp? 

Wild guess at what is under the tarp but I think it is a Mark 1 Ford Capri 

I've looked through the construction manual for the model, and the rear brass tubes are held on with binding. The idea is that they sit on the plywood with a thin line of holes down each side of the brass tube. Copper wire is bound tightly around the tube through the hole, and then epoxied together. This sounds OK - and probably strong enough.

If I solder the brass tubes to a thin brass sheet that is as wide and long as the ply strip I would need to be sure the soldering was strong enough to hold the tubes to the brass sheet, never mind making sure the brass sheet was held onto the ply.

It is a Mk1 Capri - my last big project! 1969 3.0GT XLR to be precise!



I've spent many days lying underneath this with weld in my hair!

If you're interested:

http://www.fordcapri.co.uk/about/mymk1/anm.htm

If DB says that binding is OK then I’m sure it is but I like to make doubly sure that the wings don’t fall off!!

I would take the brass strip around the tubes to act as a fail safe so you’re not relying on the solder, epoxy the lot to the ply and as an extra safe guard use the bolts that go into the captive nuts to hold everything together.

Very nice car. I'm more of a Jag man myself, but that is a worthy project. 

Grahame, I see what you mean. However, my brass tubes have to be under the ply, not on the ends. This complicates wrapping the brass sheet around.

I have had an idea though. There is rigging that runs from the inside edge of the top of cabanes to the top of the fuselage. Rather than attatching these wires to the metal of the top of the cabanes I could create solid fixing points on this strip of ply, next, and in addition to the brass tubes. This would help prevent the top wing coming off!

What do you think? I think I'll try the binding method and see how convincing it is.

Also - I've just been out to the garage (sorry - hangar) and mounted all the wings on, even though the front of the top section is just resting on the cabanes. It looks good. Although there seems to be less diahedral than I was envisaging! I expect some rigging will help.

By the way, I have quite a few photocpied articles and suchlike about the SE5 - would you like me to make some copies for you? There is quite a bit on squadron markings etc, and also a fascinating article about the rebuild of the Shuttleworth SE5.

Giles

Sorry, I'd got the wrong idea from looking at the photos; if the tubes go under the ply then the binding will not be taking the lifting force only holding the tubes in position, which should be OK.  There should be 5º dihedral ex works which was sometimes reduced to 3º or 4º in the field.

If you would email me those articles I'd be very grateful indeed.

Grahame
 
EDIT: From the articles Giles sent me it would appear that the correct dihedral angle should be 3º 20’.  It just goes to show that you should never believe all you read on the Internet!

These article are all old photocpies - I'm happy to post them if you like. There is even a list of the aircraft 30 or so people used - ie the serial number of the plane. E-mail me your address if you like.

I'll get binding in the morning, check the diahedral and rigging and get a picture! Off for a curry now!

I've assembled both upper and lower wings with some of the old rigging wires. I'm not seeing as much diahedral as I had when I was glueing in the bars that each wing slides on. What seems to be happening is that the weight of the upper wing coming down the outer interplane strut is pushing the lower wing down, and due to the flexibility of the wings this is reducing the diahedral.

I'm wondering how much I can pull the lower wing up using the rigging? I think I'll draw a sketch or mark up a picture to illustrate the problem and get everyones thoughts.

As far as the dicsussion on the brass tubes, I've decided to get the rigging sorted out as this does not depend on the mounting of the centre wing. I can do that bit later.

Giles

Here are some pictures of the model with the top wings on and some basic rigging:





It looks prommising, but where has all my diahedral gone? It is a little better than it was, but nothing like as much as it should be!

What is happening is the top wing is pushing the lower wing down and reducing the diahedral. I'm thinking that I can rectify this by using the rigging wires to pull the lower wings up again.

In the picture below I've marked the wire to use. It runs up to the top of the cabane. There is then another wire that runs to the top of the fuselage. Do we think this is the right way of fixing this problem? There are two wires per side like this, on at the front which is the one marked in red, and then there is another at the rear of the wing.





Any thoughts?

The red wires (front landing wire) and the other landing wires to the rear spar are the ones to put on first. This will set the bottom wing at the correct dihedral and incidence at the bottom wing tip. The interplane struts look like they are rigid wired, which when the model is assembled will set the top wing dihedral and incidence at the tip. It would be best to do both pairs of landing wires with the wings in place, to be assured that the cabane struts are not getting pulled slightly out of shape. If you do one side completely, there is a chance it will change when you do the other side.
This model is starting to look lovely again

Ian.

Ian,

Thanks for the reply. So it would be OK for these wires to be very taught pulling the lower wing up? The interplane struts are rigid as you suggest, so they would push the upper wing up as required.

Giles

From the last photo there definitely appears to be dihedral at the root.  Are they the original flying wires, the ones from the top wing to the roots of the bottom wings? If so that will be pulling the top wing down to the original no dihedral set up, make sure you disconnect these wires before you attach your new landing wires which should give you back your dihedral.

Did nobody notice my “deliberate” mistake?  If the top wing fixing tubes are underneath the ply cross member then the stitching will in fact be taking all the lifting force, a slight error on my part!  But there must be hundreds if not thousands of these DB SE5a’s flying about so if it was a problem I’m sure it would have been commented upon before now.

The rigging wires I was using yesterday were the original wires. They are, however, not set to any particular length or location and are adjustable  - what I mean is they could be used at an point on the model, and would not have been preventing any diahedral.

My concern is that in order to get the correct diahedral on both wings I need to use the wires pulling the lower wings up from the top of the cabanes to the bottom of the interplane struts. These wires would therefore be under quite a bit of strain as they will be taking the weight of the wings, both upper and lower. I suppose that once the wings are generating lift then the wires were talking about will be redundant as the wires from the top of the interplane struts to the lower wing root will be taking all the strain.

As far as the brass tubes topic - I'll make up some ply with the brass tubes, clamp it in the vice and see if I can pull the tubes off. As you say Grahame, the other DB's make use of this method.

Giles, I would replace all or the cable rigging for peace of mind. Jack up the bottom wings, using the landing wires, to the dihedral required, making sure the wing roots are a good fit and not getting pulled open etc. Assuming the model was originally built square, the top wing should run in parallel to the bottom in all views. Stand above the assembled model, sight along the leading edge of the top wing so you can see the leading edge of the bottom wing, the leading edges should be inline. This is the 'out of squareness' you'll see most in flight. As you said previously, the whole weight of the wings is bearing on the landing wires. This is perfectly OK and in flight these wires will be completely unloaded, with all loads taken by the flying wires, of which there are 4 times as many.

Ian.

I'm very pleased with myself!

I've solved the problem I was having with my wing retaining clips.  These were working very well, but I was having difficulty releasing the two clips per wing and gently pulling the wing off the piano wires that are fixed to the centre sections of the wings.

I wanted to make a mechanism that would enable me to disengage the wing clips and hold them in the "open" position so the piano wire can be pushed and pulled through them easily. This will make rigging and de-rigging the SE5 much easier and avoid any unneccesary strain on the wings.



This is one of the installations of a wing clip at the root of one of the upper wings. You can see the self tappers that hold the spring steel in place and allow it to be bent backwards (to the left of the picture) to release the paino wire, which runs therough the wooden block to the right.

The problem I had was that each of the eight wing clips (two in each wing root) was going to be slightly different, and the correct position to hold the spring steel in to make the piano wire run freeley had a tollerance of about 1mm. I was worried that over time things might move or wear, or the spring of the steel will change- making whatever lever mechanism I chose not work properly as it would either not move the spring steel enough, or too much.

It took me a few hours but I have a simple, adjustable and easy to produce solution. This is it:



The lever running from top to bottom is located into the small metal hole at the base of the assembly. This then runs through the groove in the upper thin ply cover. Glued to the underneath of this cover is this:



When viewed from above you can see the space for the lever to move down the side of the bolt. The thin line just to the left of the end of the bolt is the top of the spring steel.



This bolt has a small groove filed out of its end, and the two nuts are glued to the ply. When in the slack position the retaining clip holds the piano wire as required. When I need to remove or assemble the wing I push the lever back against the steel retaining clip and move it to the side once it has cleared the bolt. The tension in the steel holds the lever against the groove in the end of the bolt, and as the bolts position can be adjusted via the nuts I can get the spring steel held in exactly the correct position to allow the piano wire to run in and out easily.



Obviously the groove in the ply is too long and I'll make up a smaller one! I intend to fix the top ply cover to the wing using self tappers so if I need to I can get into this area once the model is complete.

In other news I have completed making the ply strip with the brass tubes as per previous discussions - I'll get a pic of this soon. Tonight I hope to re-work all the rigging with new wires and fixtures.

Neat

Mike

I've got hold of a couple of sheets of Litho from a printers. Is there some process I need to do to make it as workable as possible? I seem to remember something about applying soap?

Spread watered down soap thinly over one surface of the litho plate and leave it to dry.  Then heat it until the soap turns dark brown, almost black and let it cool naturally.

I find it best to use the gas hob set quite low, a blowtorch gives a too concentrated flame to get even annealing.

Any thoughts on how to get wife approval on this? Does it smell?

Any thoughts on how to get wife approval on this? Does it smell?

Give her some cash and point her in the direction of the shops................

It has been quite a while since my last post - but I've been working away making steady progress on the SE5.



This is what it looks like at the moment, although it does now have its ailerons fitted. Since my last post I have finished the main rigging, sorted out my scale exhaust, finished all the covering and a miriad of other tiny jobs that just seem to take for ever.

As it stands I have to make the undercarriage and cockpit details and then it is ready for paint. There are many small scale details that I want to add, but the u/c and cockpit are the big jobs.





Tonight I'm hoping get the cockpit cover fitted. I'm going to be adding the cockpit details later as I want time to enjoy this part and at the moment I want to get the model finished and ready to fly. I'm also going to have a go at anealing some litho plate with soap over a gentle flame - do I only smear soap on one side and apply heat to the other side?

That's right Giles, soap one side heat from the other.  It's not that critical but just don't apply too much heat and melt the litho plate.

It's looking good by the way!!

Try forming the cockpit cover without annealing 1st.................if the litho is thin enough, it's easy to 'roll' it to a single curvature very easily on a soft (carpet) surface with a wooden rolling pin. I normally only anneal when the curvature is tight (around a leading edge for example), or the former piece is required to form round a double curvature (cowling lip, air scoop etc...)

Phil

Actually I'm going to use the 0.4mm ply for the cockpit cover. The litho is for some of the details on the top and front of the fuselage.

Last night I completed the construction of the cockpit - ie the dashboard, seat surround etc. All these parts have been made so I can take them in and out of the top of the cockpit and add the instruments and other equipment later - at the moment they are just pieces of wood cut to the correct size. I want to press on with the painting of the fuselage rather than getting held up with cockpit detail which I can add at any time, but I needed the cockpit cover done!

This is my current status, the fuselage is very, very nearly ready for paint, I have a little rubbing down to do, and a final fit check for the engine and wings.

I've covered the cockpit



But unfortunately you can clearly see the extra bearers I have added to strengthen what was an area of weakness in the original model. Never mind.

I have also made the front of the fuselage, which will be removable as this is how the engine goes in and out.



Here are the wings in their detached state:



I'll be very happy to get some green paint on things!

Once this is done my remaining jobs before it is ready for a fly are the undercarriage and the scale exhaust which will fit around the real exhaust which exits the engine bay on one side - like the original.

Much of the lovely scale detail that I want to do but have not had the time will be added later - I don't want to get held up doing them as the summer slips away - if we ever get a summer that is!

When tackling any kind of scale model it is vital to consult an expert who can guide you along the way.




Someone who really understands the plans

I have painted my model! I'll be posting some pictures tomorow. I've spayed on the PC10 supplied by WarBirds. All went well, and I'm going to be adding the roundels and markings next.

I'm very pleased to have a green aeroplane now!

Here are some pics of my current progress.

I did another assembly check of the model just for my own sanity, and becuase it is nice to see it outside!





These are my stitches for detail on the side of the fuselage.



I was tempted with the prototype Vulcan paint scheme!







I've used the PC10 provided by Warbirds, and here it is! I think it is a little on the olive green side of things, but I'm happy enough with it.









I've got to paint the underside of the wings and tailplane with the linen colour, which I'm tempted to do with a brush rather than the spray gun as it will take soooo long to mask off all the green areas, and most of the time the linen areas will be seen the aircraft will be in flight.

My next job is the roundels. I'm in a dilema about these - I want them to be round! I could try marking them out by hand using string and a pencil and then hand painting, or I could try masking out the shapes and spraying. I could try using airbrush film to mask the areas and hope it pulls off OK - can I have some suggestions please?

Giles

Is it me or does PC10 not look quite right on SE5A's?    The Old Warden one always looked right and looked much darker to me, but as I'm "colour vision" challanged what do I know!  Still looking good though.

With regard to the roundels - Can I suggest a set of trammel's either bought or cheaply made out of an old drawing ink attachment for a pair of compases and asuitable pointy bit for the centre.   The trick is to double sided tape asmall piece of 1/16 ply on the centre so that you dont damage the covering and also keeps the centre, well on the centre.   Draw the colour outlines with the trammels then fill in by brush.   I can provide a photo of my home made version if my explaination isn't clear.

Alan B