Topic: SE5 restoration

First of all buy a fine tipped permanent marker as near to the colour of the lettering as you can find; it’s amazing how far out the shade can be and still produce good results.  Make a card stencil using whatever method you prefer and tape it into position on the model, draw the out line using the permanent marker.  Allow plenty of time for the ink to dry then using a fine brush paint to the edges then infill with a “large” brush.  The ink “draws” the paint to the edge and results in a smooth outline.

Here's a couple of photos of the registration lettering on my Panall Elf done using this method.





I should add that I've only used this method using enamel paint, as "warbirds" paint is water-based I suggest you experiment first! I'll be very interested to see how you get on because I'm hoping to start on the paint job on my SE5a in a couple of weeks and I'll be using "Warbirds" PC10.

EDIT got the photos showing now!!

Greyhead...all i'm getting on those links is...


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Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.


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No idea why that is but just copy and paste the URL

I've used the PC10 provided by Warbirds, and here it is! I think it is a little on the olive green side of things, but I'm happy enough with it.

The WBC PC10 used here is 'PC 10 Old'..............they do manufacture a 'PC 10 Dark', but I don't have this in at present.

Regarding the roundels..............masking on a fabric covering is never an easy task, especially an open framework. Even the best tapes will have a degree of 'bleed' if the weave of the fabric hasn't been totally filled with paint (which is REALLY heavy) so I'd advise against it. I've aways used the 'paint pen in a pair of compasses' method.....basically as per Alan B's suggestion.................always worked well for me as long as quality brushed are used for the infill work so as not to get a 'streaky' finish.

Phil

Hello all,

Thanks for the replies. What is a set of trammel's? Is it like a big compass?

I presume that if I can get a paint pen - or something like it to make the outer edges of the roundels then all I need is a method of rotating the pen around the central point - like some string perhaps? There is an art shop near my office so I'll go and have a look at lunch - what should I be looking for in a paint pen? And do they come in white?

Alan - could you post a pic of your method?

Giles

By paint pen...I'm not referring to a pen with 'paint' in it.........I'm talking about a 'nib' that is dipped into your tin of paint, secured into a pair of compasses, and used in the same way as normal.................

I call it a paint pen.....it may have a 'correct' name...I'm not sure???

Phil

I use latex to mask off onto fabric, simply paint it on, then the colour, the latex rubs off easily afterwards, with no paint runs at all.

Ian.

Giles,

Here are a couple of photographs of my home made trammels.   



Just a bit of brass bar with hole in one end that has a steel pin in it.  An Ali block slides along the bar to the desired radius. The drawing pen compass attachment is mounted in the block.   



These attachments come in cheapo compass sets from places like W.H.Simths and I would imagine hardly ever get used!  A screw is used to lock the block in the correct position.   Paint is mixed to the correct consistency (thin-ish but trial and error I'm afraid) and is introduced into the gap betwen the prongs.  The little screw on the side of the prongs adjusts the gap between them and therefore the thickness of the line (with in limits).

Sorry I couldn't include a picture with paint and a roundel but I'm very tired after a superb all day flying session with the Pup    Fantastic - certainly beats work! 

BTW don't forget the bit of thin ply for the steel pin to sit on in the centre otherwise you will end up with a large hole in the covering    Once you have drawn the rings of colour you can block th ebulk of it in with a decent brush.    Definitely needs a bit of practice so try it out on some cardboard or an old wing before you go near the SE5A.

Good luck.

Alan B
 

Alan & I are talking about the same thing here................just I have a 'large bow' compass from my old tech drawing days that's good for 10/12" roundals.

Phil

Hello all,

Ah - I understand the definition of paint pens now - unfortunately I've just bought twelve quids worth of red, white blue and black pens - the kind with the ball bearing in them. They do have a nice nib so I'll practice with them using a template first and see. If this does not work then I'll go for the compass method.

Regarding the warbirds paint - I spent a little time last night touching up some of the gaps between control surfaces that had been missed. I had bought a decent (expensive) soft watercolour wash brush, and the results were fantastic - you could not see any of the brush marks at all. In fact it was so good that I went around the rest of the model and gave it an extra coat in a few places where it was not quite as covered as I would have liked. The high pigment colour of the paint really works well. Phil has been a great help with his advice on this, so thanks Phil!

Giles.

I've just got this book - and jolly nice it is too. There is a whole section on markings for all the aces, so I'll be picking one of them.



I'm hoping to tackle the roundels tonight/tomorrow night - so I'll keep you all posted on how I get on.

Cheers,

Giles

I've painted on all the linen colour on the underside of the model, and further to what I mentioned before about brushing, I can say that using a decent brush it is possible to get a really smooth finish with no brush streaks at all. Hoping to get the roundels started soon.

Hello all,

Here is a picture of my first roundel. Not very good really, but I'll get better. I'm hoping that as a finished collection of circles it will look better. I'm much more worried about the shade of blue  -  I'm certain this is much too light.



This is a picture showing the colour difference from the colour schemes I'm using:



And this is the one I've chosen,


Capt Gwilym H Lewis, No 40 Squadron May 1918. Who lived until 1996, aged 98, although I might not paint my interplane struts in the D-Day stripes!

What do people think about this blue, is it too light? I think it is.

Also - detail of fuselage showing absence of brush strokes!

Keep adding the layers Giles.....the blue is still very streeky/thin..................plus I think it's the documentation that's incorrect, I've had a couple of other customers check the WBC WW1 RAF Insignia Blue against known chips, and they've commented that they are good. (unless anyone else knows otherwise...as far as I'm aware, WW1 and WW2 Insignia colours were not the same)

Phil

Hello Phil,

I know I need to add a few more coats, but I stopped as I was uncertain if the colour was OK. I'll give it the finishing coats tonight.

The paint is really nice to work with, it flows very well and the final finish appears very durable and has a nice scale look to it.

Giles

Giles,

The standard blue from WW1 is much lighter than in later years.  The blue on my Pup is very light (I didn't paint it!) and something like Shuttleworth's, see - http://www.shuttleworth.org/gallery2.asp?ID=9

The markings on my SE5A (sadly slightly damaged at the minute) were painted using the appropriate Humbrol colours see below.

The other thing of course is that the Shuttleworth SE5A is currently in a very similar state to yours see - http://www.shuttleworth.org/aircraft_restoration2.asp?ID=6 although it is now pretty much covered and awaiting paint.   We could ask them what colour they will be using.  As I only live a few miles away and am a member of the SVAS I will try and see if could drop in and find out. If I was really cheeky I might be able to get a small sample  

Alan B

Hello Alan,

Thanks very much for the info. I got a few more coats on the blue last night, and it looks very nice. I'll stop worrying about it and get cracking on finishing the model!

I have to:
-Finish the painting of roundels and markings - estimate time at 2 evenings
-Construct and paint the undercarriage - also 2 evenings if my cack handded soldering goes OK.
-Construct dummy exhausts
-Final assembly of engine and other bits and pieces, all of which just need bolting on.

Then I can run the engine up in the garden and fine tune the radio gear settings.

Not long now,

Giles

You are doing a great job of your re-build there.  When I painted my own DB SE5a I also was concerned about the colors but after reading Gordon Witeheads scale aircraft book it clearly stated WW1 british aircraft insignia was much lighter than 2nd WW aircraft.  Pic is of my (been in storage for years) and now sold SE5a.


The pictures make the roundels look ruff and uneven but they are not as bad as they look!

I don't know if this helps but in a Scale Models Extra magazine on Model Colour (~1980)  Humbrol M25 Matt Blue is given as the match for WW1 British roundel blue. The editor was Ray Rimmel so it should be good data.
Steve

Hello all,

I made good progress over the weekend with the roundels, and here are some pictures.













I used the compass and paint pen rig show above to make the outer edges of the circles, which worked very well. I think my inner red circles on the wings are too big, so I'll have to reduce them a little. I know they are too big on the sides of the fuselage, but these roundels are not finished yet.

The template I made for the "K" is not good enough so I'll be making this again, and of course it is different for each side! There is not much room on the wings for the "K" so I'm tempted to leave this off for the time being.

Thanks for all the replies about colour. I'm pretty happy with the Warbirds paint, it has got darker as it has dried, and although it has needed loads of coats it is a great finish.

Giles

Looking good Giles

I think you are right the red centres might be a shade too big.  Are they giant spring bows you are using?   Most of the ones I've seen would be too small for a 1/4 scale job (too small for my Flair 1/6ish version!).  The largest spring bows I've come across are about 6" long and will do a circle of, say, 8" diameter hence my trammels.

Alan B

good job so far, quick note on roundels and finish ( bit late now i know ), they didn't use masking tape and airbrushes back in ww1
for true scale you want a pencil outline about right, then a tiny paintbrush.
brush strokes are good. however it has been known to upset true scale judges for some daft reason.

looking good anyway, just no need to worry if they ain't right.

i've always like the SE5a ( and yes i'm going to call it an a  )

I'm not using spring bows, just standard drawing compasses, but they are not big enough to do the outer circles, which I did using fishing line attatched to a central point and tied to the paint pen, crude but effective.

As far as adjusting the red part of the roundels I shall leave this until I've got everything else done!

According to the 'Radio Control Scale Aircraft' book by Gordon Whitehead the roundels size are as follows:
Dia of the red (vermillion) is 1/5 of the outer circles dia.  The dia of the white circle should be 3/5 of the outer (ultramarine blue) circle.
A bit late I know but possibly useful for future reference.

According to the 'Radio Control Scale Aircraft' book by Gordon Whitehead the roundels size are as follows:

I really must track down a copy of that book by the sound of it.

I have recieved my copy of "Wings Over the Somme" this morning. This is written by the man who I've chosen to fly my SE5 so it will provide lots of good info about the SE5. There are loads of pictures of the man with the various aircraft that he flew.  I'm going to enjoy reading it.

There's some good references on 'google'

Here's one I found quite interesting

http://cocardes.monde.online.fr/v2html/en/pays/royaume_uni.html#royaume_uni_1gm

http://cocardes.monde.online.fr/v2html/en/mini_cocarde.html

I think I need to get a new receiver for this model - I have always used Futaba radio equipment so I think I'll go for another Futaba - can anyone recommend one to me? I don't know much about them. I have a Field Force 6 special edition transmitter.

Why do you think you need a new receiver?  Is you current one faulty?  I would suggest if all channels are working correctly and it range checks why buy another.  I am a great believer of if it ain't broke don't fix it.  I am using (as are many of my club mates) radio gear several years old.  I have seen many people buy new gear for each new model and sell their old stuff on with the airframe to rotate their gear.  Great if you have a big pocket but personally I don't (and thank the people that do and sell on radio gear cheap as they are frightened of it).

If you buy another receiver I am assuming any on the market would do as if they are not fit for purpose they should not be sold?  Perhaps I'm talking poop but jus my opinion.

Your re-build is looking great, looking forward to flying shots soon. 

The reason for a new receiver is that I think the final weight will be over 7kgs - and therefore I need the PCM failsafe to be legal. I don't have any receiver that does this.

Giles

Ripmax market separate failsafe unit that you can use with your existing PPM receiver - see:

http://www.ripmax.com/item.asp?itemid=P-XTRA-2151&Category=010

Mike

That is interesting, I presume this goes between the reciever and the throttle servo? How do they work?

Would this keep me legal within the BMFA insurance if the model is over 7kgs?

Giles

The demand for a throttle failsafe on models exceeding 7kg is a CAA requirement detailed in CAP658 as follows:

A serviceable ‘fail-safe’ mechanism should be incorporated to operate on loss of
signal or detection of an interfering signal. For example on a power driven model
this should operate, as a minimum, to reduce the engine(s) speed to idle.

The wording used suggests to me that an "add on" device is acceptable.

By the way, if you choose to go the PCM route, check that you transmitter is PCM capable - I don't know enough about the FF6 to be sure. IF you go PCM then you MUST use a Futaba receiver. You can normally mix and match Rxs and Txs when using PPM but you cannot with PCM - each manufacturer's protocol is different.

I agree, it does sound like an add-on route is acceptable, and as suggested previously I don't need to replace the existing recieved, and the PCM ones are very expensive. I'll be getting a failsafe I think.

Giles

How on earth can you drill through piano wire? I need to drill small holes through each end of my axle for the retaining clips. I did get a test hole through a test piece by heating it up to cherry red in the blow torch and then quenching it in cold water - I'm wondering if I  blunted my drill doing this one leading to no luck on the axle itself!

Any tips please?

Also - is it possible to solder litho plate? What about after it has been annealed? Can it still be soldered then?

Nice model! I cross-drilled piano wire for a 1/4 scale Piper Cub by heating the wire to a bright red colour but if I remember correctly, I let it cool naturally then drilled it using a new drill bit. I think if you quench it, it will return to a hard, brittle state. No doubt someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Re cross drilling piano wire.  On the one I had I didn't cross drill at all.  What I did was to solder over the wire a piece of brass tube that was a perfect fit.  The tube overhung the wire by 1/4" and i filled the end with solder to.  This leaves a very easy to drill axle and a home for your split pin or whatever you intend to use.  If I remember correctly I found a further piece of brass tube that was a perfect fit over the axle tube.  I drilled out my plastic wheel to accept said tube so had a reasonably good bearing without the possibility of the plastic/nylon wheel wearing.

This is how I do it; made from brass tube as in the above post but I solder the back washer to the tube and then the final assembly is simply glued to the axle using slow epoxy.



Not last a wheel yet, at least not using this method!

Hello all, thanks for the replies. I've made up brass sleeves like the ones Greyhead has posted. The problem is that the brass tubes and piano wire are not a snug fit. I forsee a trip to the model shop, then I can avoid having to drill the piano wire and get a more snug fit by getting a smaller brass tube or a bigger diameter piano wire.

I was able to drill through the piano wire axle last night. I heated it up to cherry red at each and let it cool naturally. Then I used a new drill and a blob of cutting fluid and it went through OK, although it did take a minute or so. So this sucess could be a new drill, letting it cool naturally, or both!

I also had a go with annealing some litho plate to make my exhaust headders. This was my first attempt at this. How much soap should I use and how brown/black should I let it go? I made up a male mould to beat the litho around, to make half an exhaust.  Can anyone give me some tips on how to work litho, what tools to use and how best to form compound curves? My first results are a bit poor. I found the metal harder to work than I was expecting!



These are what I need to make, one side encloses the plastic exhaust deflector coming from the in-cowl silencer. I'll post a pic of my first attempt tomorrow.