Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger

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Author Topic: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger  (Read 4602 times)

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Offline Tiger wrote Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 02, 2007, 21:54:59 PM
OK guys,

As Steve has mentioned on the other build thread for this project http://www.rcmf.co.uk/4um/index.php/topic,35919.0.html, I am attempting to produce an undercarriage for this project. Sierra produce a complete system for this particular model, they're a bit expensive, but where's the challenge in handing over a large wedge of dosh.........Far too easy........ :)  :)  :)  :)

I am preparing the design drawings at the moment............For those of you who are not familiar with the Avenger, and that includes me, it was a huge, mostly carrier borne single engined torpedo bomber/bomber/strike aircraft. Excuse me if I have some facts wrong, I am on a steep learning curve too. The model is 1/6th scale, my YT Spitfire is 1/6th scale and has a wingspan of 72.5", this model has a wingspan of 108". A big heavy old bird, therefore, the undercarriage has to be full of testosterone to take all the pounding of those carrier landings.

The main oleo legs are braced for fore and aft movement with a massive drag brace and also braced for sideways loading with hinged upper and lower side struts. Our first thoughts were to make the side struts non functional, but if they can be designed to do their intended job they add much stiffness to the whole structure, effectively reducing the length of the legs by a half. The problem here is releasing, the lock first, before retraction, I have a solution, but not a very elegant one at the moment, but it does work....... :af  :af  :af ...Hey Ho

What I could do with some help on, is.......................

The required rate for the springs, the whole model is designed to weigh 38 lbs................Is there a rule of thumb for the spring force required, 1st case just to support the weight of the model and 2nd to absorb the shock loading of Steve's landings. If one of you learned gentlemen could point me in the right direction........... :af  :af  :af

My plan at the moment is to show as much of the design, machining and build of this undercarriage system as I practically can, so with your 
forbearance I will do my best to 'get on with it'........... ::)  ::)  ::)

Tally Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Andy



I do have my failings................... fortunately, making mistakes is not one of them.

Reply #1
Offline p51p47 wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 02, 2007, 23:11:05 PM
Spring rate rule of thumb = double the models weight per oleo. 38lb model required a 76/80lb spring per leg.

My B-26 has 150lb springs for a 70lb model, Skyraider has 250lb springs.

Was chatting to me inspector last weekend.............he's given up with springs now, instead he's using small 'gas struts'.......like the ones that hold your car boot open...................apparently these are available in small diameter, short stroke, and have a better 'damping' effect than a standard spring. He's fitted them inside the oleo as a direct replacement for the spring.

Food for thought.

Phil

Real planes are green...anything without guns is a target. Fighteraces Warbird & Accessories

Reply #2
Offline selleri wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 03, 2007, 01:15:07 AM
The model is 1/6th scale, my YT Spitfire is 1/6th scale and has a wingspan of 72.5", this model has a wingspan of 108". A big heavy old bird, therefore, the undercarriage has to be full of testosterone to take all the pounding of those carrier landings.


Big indeed  :co

Took this pic at Yeovilton last summer.


And the gear, with the far side tire pasted in

Sverrir  - Icelandic Volcano Yeti

Reply #3
Offline Tiger wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 03, 2007, 08:11:05 AM
Phil,

Thanks for that, just the sort of answer we were looking for, I like the idea of the gas struts, I will investigate that one.

Sverrir,

Good picture :af  :af  :af , it's that side strut that's posing the prob at the moment, the rest of it is sorted. The picture is a good example of why we want to make the side struts functional, as I noted in the first post the length of the leg is reduced by a half.

Thanks guys........... :)  :)  :)  :)

Tally Hoooooooooooooooo

Abdy

I do have my failings................... fortunately, making mistakes is not one of them.

Reply #4
Offline Vic66 wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 03, 2007, 09:29:05 AM
We use a fair amount of Gas struts at work for doors and the like Andy, Stabilus have a pretty good online catalog showing the different types available, gas springs, dampers etc, the ones in the link below may not be the exact type your after but browse around the rest of the site, theres loads of different ones on there.

http://www.stabilus.com/frameset.asp?sprache=englisch&headline=Products&bereich=produkte&subsite=menue.asp


Reply #5
Offline Carlo wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 03, 2007, 16:42:02 PM
I can not see it on the pictures but how does the side strut bend?
If you can give me a good picture or drawing of the side strut, maybe I can help you with your problem.
As I can see on the pictures, if there is enough room in the wing I think you can make it working by using 1 big servo. This should be connected to the side strut. Then you do not need pneumatic power or an electric motor to move the oleo.

Carlo


Reply #6
Offline CF-FZG wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 03, 2007, 18:18:58 PM
Carlo, it's similar to the Hurri, the actuator operates directly on the sway brace which pulls the leg up :af


Mark.

Paint will not hide imperfections, it will just change their colour!

Reply #7
Offline Tiger wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 03, 2007, 23:14:06 PM
Carlo, it's similar to the Hurri, the actuator operates directly on the sway brace which pulls the leg up :af


Mark.


Mark is correct....................

Carlo thanks for the idea.................stored away if needed, but read on please........ :af  :af

I have sorted the design tonight............ :af  :af The air cylinder I am using has a 50mm stroke, I need 47mm for the 90 deg rotation of the leg to fully retract. So, I have 3mm movement to spare, I will allow the body of the cylinder to move backwards 3 mm and this movement I have used to release the lock on the side strut. The solution is somewhat neater than I was thinking it would be last night, not quite in line with the full size but very simple............

This is a drawing of the fullsize arrangement.................and of course the tailwheel...........I haven't even thought about this yet.... ;)  ;)



Steve hasn't seen the final design yet , he's not around this weekend, so I can hardly show you guys before him can I?.......... :ev

If he likes it and we can work out how to post a CAD drawing, I will show you my thoughts........... :)  :)  :)

Tally Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Andy

I do have my failings................... fortunately, making mistakes is not one of them.

Reply #8
Offline CF-FZG wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 04, 2007, 07:45:16 AM
Andy,

I like the idea :af

How are you letting the 'torque tube' rotate after the side brace unlocks?

Do you have another sketch showing the 'up' position?


Mark.

Paint will not hide imperfections, it will just change their colour!

Reply #9
Offline snap-roll wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 04, 2007, 12:26:12 PM
Andy, if you need very thin walled st/st pipes of all sorts of dia. check by Toni Clark http://www.toni-clark.com/Default.htm  I'll use his stuff for my Wildcat gear.

 :) Johan

Tally-ho

Reply #10
Offline CF-FZG wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 05, 2007, 18:35:30 PM
Steve hasn't seen the final design yet , he's not around this weekend, so I can hardly show you guys before him can I?.......... :ev

If he likes it and we can work out how to post a CAD drawing, I will show you my thoughts........... :)  :)  :)

So Andy, now Steve's back, has he seen it, does he like it, and when can we see it?  ;)


Mark.

Paint will not hide imperfections, it will just change their colour!

Reply #11
Offline Tiger wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 05, 2007, 20:26:06 PM
Hi guys...................

he likes it  :af  :af  :af  :af  :af

Johan,

Thanks for the link could be very useful...................

And now the drawing.......................tear it to pieces please, it costs nothing to make changes at this stage.

The air cylinder is a std industrial double acting unit SMC part No. CJ2D16-50 producing 25 lbf  at 80 psi and 31 lbf at 100 psi. Not shown on the drawing is the fore/aft drag brace, this is attached to the same mid leg collar as the side brace and pivots aft of the retract unit on a pivot pin extension. It will be machined from ally with lightening holes as the full size.




Thanks in advance for your comments

Tally Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Andy


I do have my failings................... fortunately, making mistakes is not one of them.

Reply #12
Offline CF-FZG wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 05, 2007, 20:59:41 PM
Andy, that looks very good :af :af

What diameter cylinder are you using, as 25lbs and 31lbs doesn't sound a lot with that moment arm, Sierra are using a 1" unit, which gives approx 45lbs at 100psi on leg retraction, 35lbs at 80psi, (by my calculation anyway :-\)

To improve rigidity, I'd suggest having the lower flanges out at the end where the side brace attaches.  They don't need to be continuous, just at the ends :af

I really like your idea with the spring :af :af  helps maintain a geometric lock :af


Mark.

Paint will not hide imperfections, it will just change their colour!

Reply #13
Offline rcfanuk wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 06, 2007, 09:37:17 AM
Really nice job Andy, looking forward to seeing these in the flesh

Steve

Forum Admin

Dawn Patrol UK

Reply #14
Offline Cliff wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 06, 2007, 12:45:16 PM
 Andy,
      That"s very impressive, wish I had your machining skills!

 Cliff  :)

scale flyers do it properly

Reply #15
Offline Carlo wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 06, 2007, 14:05:24 PM
How do you command the side brice to bend when wheels up and how do you lock it when wheels down?

Carlo


Reply #16
Offline Tiger wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 06, 2007, 17:11:06 PM
Carlo,

The leg is locked in 'wheels up' and 'wheels down' position by the curved slots in the retract unit side plates, 47mm of the 50mm cylinder stroke. The side braces and the fore/aft drag links are there to effectively shorten the length of the leg.

Wheels up sequence is this............

Air on to cylinder to extend piston rod..........

The piston rod will try to extend and move the leg, the leg cannot move because the side brace is locked over centre. The cylinder body can, by means of a 3mm long mounting slot, so will, move backwards towards the RH end of the slot. When it moves backward it pushes on a inner lever which rotates the torque rod and lifts the outer lever which in turn, lifts the upper side rod link, thus, the over centre lock of the side brace is removed. The leg is now free to retract into its up position. At the end of the cycle the piston in the cylinder is fully extended 50 mm and the leg is locked up, by the lock on the retract unit.

To lower the gear...........

Air on to cylinder to retract piston rod.............

The retract unit up lock is removed by the piston rod tee bar, the leg lowers. The side brace links are pulled down by the leg. When the piston reaches the end of the stroke. The mounting pin is at the LH end of the 3mm slot, the leg is locked in position by the retract unit the side braces are locked in their over centre position.

I hope this all makes sense. please shout, if it dosen't.

Tally Hoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Andy

I do have my failings................... fortunately, making mistakes is not one of them.

Reply #17
Offline Carlo wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 06, 2007, 17:19:06 PM
Looks great this way.
Are you going to 'hard anodize' the alu parts with the 3mm slots?

Carlo


Reply #18
Offline mark01 wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 06, 2007, 17:21:03 PM
Quote
I hope this all makes sense. please shout, if it dosen't.


 Bloody Engineers  :ev

 Absolutley Cracking bit of CAD ,can't wait to see the start of the machining process  :D

I am Nobody..... Nobody is Perfect... therefore I am Perfect

Reply #19
Offline Tiger wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 06, 2007, 17:53:10 PM
Looks great this way.
Are you going to 'hard anodize' the alu parts with the 3mm slots?

Carlo

Carlo,

Probably not, I plan to have a hard nylon or PTFE top hat bush on the support pin. The bush will then slide in the ally slot.

Mark,

Sorry.........................that's who I is.............. ;D  ;D  ;D

Thanks guys

Tally Hoooooooooooooooooooooooo

Andy

I do have my failings................... fortunately, making mistakes is not one of them.

Reply #20
Offline p51p47 wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 06, 2007, 18:06:30 PM
Very nice Andy, very nice indead  :af :af.................

Real planes are green...anything without guns is a target. Fighteraces Warbird & Accessories

Reply #21
Offline Carlo wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 06, 2007, 18:49:27 PM
I prefere  Nylon or POM for bushings,  PTFE is not so hard.

Carlo


Reply #22
Offline Tiger wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 06, 2007, 19:50:41 PM
I prefere  Nylon or POM for bushings,  PTFE is not so hard.

Carlo

Just testing.................. ;D  ;D  ;D  ;D

Me too

Tally Hooooooooooooooooooooooo

Andy

I do have my failings................... fortunately, making mistakes is not one of them.

Reply #23
Offline snap-roll wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 07, 2007, 06:44:37 AM
Tiger, sounds like a nice and functional construction  :af
For bushings use POM as PA (Nylon) is very hygroscopic and changes dimensions all the time with the humidity.

 :) Johan

Tally-ho

Reply #24
Offline Tiger wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 07, 2007, 09:01:52 AM
Guys,

Just to make sure..........I am only talking about the top hat bushes to allow the cylinder to slide.

All other bearings will be brass or oilite.

Johan

OK.......POM it is then.........thankyou

Tally Hoooooooooooooooo

Andy

I do have my failings................... fortunately, making mistakes is not one of them.

Reply #25
Offline Tiger wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 08, 2007, 22:12:01 PM
Guys,

I thought you might like to see what I've been doing, while it's been a bit cold in the workshop.......... :ev  :ev



Still a long way to go yet, but it gives a good impression of how things will look........... :af  :af  :af  :af

Tally Hoooooooooooooooooo

Andy

I do have my failings................... fortunately, making mistakes is not one of them.

Reply #26
Offline p51p47 wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 08, 2007, 22:40:08 PM
Andy.

Can't get an idea of 'scale'................but can I ask what are the 'footprint' dimensions ?. For a 108" 40lb model......they need to be BIG, and compared to the overall unit size, they don't seem massive at present?

Phil

Real planes are green...anything without guns is a target. Fighteraces Warbird & Accessories

Reply #27
Offline Tiger wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 08, 2007, 22:49:23 PM
Andy.

Can't get an idea of 'scale'................but can I ask what are the 'footprint' dimensions ?. For a 108" 40lb model......they need to be BIG, and compared to the overall unit size, they don't seem massive at present?

Phil

They are to the sizes directly off the plan and some.............the sideplates are 210 long 50.8 high with 80 x 25 wide flanges , the pivot block is 30 mm wide and the cylinder shown on this drawing is 20mm bore. The intermediate spacer plates are 6mm thk

They look massive to us..................what do you reckon now?

T H

Andy

I do have my failings................... fortunately, making mistakes is not one of them.

Reply #28
Offline Shane L wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 08, 2007, 22:59:21 PM
Andy   nice work mate (been watching from the sidelines)
I expect nothing less from you and am impressed mate  :af :af :af

Shane

Camera Club Moderator
Shanes Photos

Reply #29
Offline p51p47 wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 09, 2007, 10:39:53 AM
Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 17:57:12 PM by p51p47

They look massive to us..................what do you reckon now?

T H

Andy


Ahhhh.......they LOOK massive to me now as well  :af....................obviously hadn't got the 'eyecrometer' dialed in quite right  ;D

« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 17:57:12 PM by p51p47 »
Real planes are green...anything without guns is a target. Fighteraces Warbird & Accessories

Reply #30
alan c wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 09, 2007, 15:26:57 PM
Tiger,  very very nice work,  if you need any material,  we have all sorts of he30, and L168 Ally. silver steels, and many exotics, titanium etc,  if i can help, just holler


Reply #31
Offline rcfanuk wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 09, 2007, 15:28:20 PM
Titanium retracts  :D :D ;D :af

Forum Admin

Dawn Patrol UK

Reply #32
Offline snap-roll wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 09, 2007, 17:32:42 PM
Titanium retracts  :D :D ;D :af

 :D I don't think you like to work with it  ;)  Unless you got an eroding wirecutter ::) No fun to weld either....

Looks nice when heat treated though..

 :) Johan

Tally-ho

Reply #33
Offline Tiger wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 12, 2007, 00:13:25 AM
Just about finished with the CAD solid modelling now................ :)





Quite useful, for this kind of stuff........ :af  :af  :af

Onwards............... :co

Tally Hoooooooooooooo

Andy

I do have my failings................... fortunately, making mistakes is not one of them.

Reply #34
Offline CF-FZG wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 12, 2007, 05:19:24 AM
Looking good Andy :af

Now I see why the spring won't assist the downlock :embarassed:


Mark.

Paint will not hide imperfections, it will just change their colour!

Reply #35
Offline p51p47 wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 12, 2007, 08:41:13 AM
Like the 4th retaining bolt on the separate lug on the 1st image.............. :af

Real planes are green...anything without guns is a target. Fighteraces Warbird & Accessories

Reply #36
Offline Jamie Duff wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 12, 2007, 13:11:55 PM
Like the 4th retaining bolt on the separate lug on the 1st image.............. :af

Very nice work Tiger  :af :af

I agree with Phil though - the additional lug will provide a far superior installation as it doubles the footprint..... well worth the extra machining!!  :D

I need a new witty signature...

Reply #37
Offline Tiger wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 12, 2007, 14:27:46 PM
Like the 4th retaining bolt on the separate lug on the 1st image.............. :af

Very nice work Tiger  :af :af

I agree with Phil though - the additional lug will provide a far superior installation as it doubles the footprint..... well worth the extra machining!!  :D

Just keep watching boys............... :af  :af  :af

I do have my failings................... fortunately, making mistakes is not one of them.

Reply #38
Offline CF-FZG wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 12, 2007, 15:21:05 PM
Just keep watching boys............... :af  :af  :af

You finished already? :o ;)

Mark.

Paint will not hide imperfections, it will just change their colour!

Reply #39
Offline rcfanuk wrote Re: Undercarriage for Grumman Avenger on February 12, 2007, 15:39:43 PM
Well I've done my bit, signed off the drawings that is  ^-^

Steve

Forum Admin

Dawn Patrol UK
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