Topic: warranty Stinks

Hi all, I recently returned an ASP46 engine to the supplier with suspected bearing failure under a 2 year warranty with 3 months to go. Today they called me at work and said the bearings have failed and damaged the piston and liner. They say they only give a 6 month warranty on bearings, this is not stated on there warranty. To fix the engine would cost £50 a new one is £52. Allso to add insult to injury, there is a half price service Charge of £12.50 plus post for an engine I cannot use. I told them I was busy at work but would call back. After putting the phone down I thought this really stinks.
Befor I call back what would you guys suggest.

ask them to show you where it says 6months,   also, do they recomend a fuel?  did you use it? 

Tell them its in their own interest to give you a replacement (as a good will gesture) or other ASP owners will get to hear about it and possibly decide to buy other makes. For the sake of £52 they would be stooopid to lose one customer and possibly many more.

Double check your warranty to make sure they're not trying to pull a fast one about the bearings, (it maybe listed under 'consumables exclusions').

If there's no mention of this, politely ask that they repair it, pointing out that your warranty doesn't say that and you want it fixed under warranty.


Mark.

Gasbelly

If it's just the enginesupplier I guess your talking about I have just had a look at the paperwork that came with my ASP engine and on mine it does say the bearings are only under warranty for 6 months so yeah it does stink
I had an Irvine engine for about 18 months and that got a bit rough so I sent it back to the very nice people at ripmax and they put some new ones in free of charge

 I know its not what you want to hear but Hope this helps

Geoff

mmm...interesting.  The bearing failed and caused collateral damage, right? So, it looks like they are right to want to charge you for new bearings but they also want to charge you for piston & liner too which are effectively still covered under the 2 year warranty, right?

'ow does that work then?

Nope, they can't do that no matter what they put on paper and the EEC is 100% behind you on this one.

EEC Legislation states that goods must be of merchantable quality when sold.

Taking that as read, is it reasonable to assume bearings should last longer than 18 months? yes of course it is, a quick survey on here with a poll would give you the evidence you need for this.

That being the case it would mean that you bearings MUST NOT have been of merchantable quality at time of sale and therefore against EEC rulings.

Contact the supplier, tell them to cut the Carp, sort it OR you will have no alternative other than going through the small claims court procedure to seek remedy.

That should do the trick, it did for me with Ford when they tried telling me that the laquer on my Alloy wheels was not faulty even though it was flaking off after 2 years 10 months, they said alloys were part of the body and thus only covered for 12 months. They paid in full.

Regards - J

Guys,

calm down a bit!!


Phone your supplier and POLITELY and CALMLY discuss your problem with the MANAGER.

Goin in all guns blazin just puts peoples backs up.

If the paperwork says 6 months on bearings accept that, maybe offer to pay half the labour costs?

Face it pay for bearings, get liner and piston under warranty, pay half labour - u lookin at what? maybe 20 - 25 quid - for almost new engine..

Dont go for all or nothin!!

Thanks for the replies its not really a case of the money  more principle of giving you a 2 year warranty. If its a case of 6 months on the bearings, should it not really be a year. The timer on TX says 3 hours 10mins on this model so not really much use. Allso used prop, plug and fuel as instructions say. Will think it over and call them back Monday.

lol that old chestnut, believe me, they can wiggle out of a warranty job if the engine goes bang within 30 seconds of starting, YES THEY HAVE DONE THIS!

I've also had the 6 months BS and they caused the damage to the rest so your not covered.

Just Excuses


they will send it back for free, do that, go to www.modelbearings.co.uk and get a new set
unless you can feel P&L damage they should be fine, did this with a Magnum 36 ( my example above ) and it's been fine since.

I'll never put up with Just Excuses again.

lol that old chestnut, believe me, they can wiggle out of a warranty job if the engine goes bang within 30 seconds of starting, YES THEY HAVE DONE THIS!

Only if theyre allowed to, it seems to me that if bearings have lasted 3 hours that they were faulty at the start or installed incorrectly. As said above, speak to them but very firmly and point out that you're considering small claims court. The SCC is a simple procedure, not difficult or intimidating unless of course you're the defendant.

Regards - J

he's one that lasted just 5 flights, although ,this time the bearings were fine, mine was the other way around.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i10jsJBldZs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i10jsJBldZs</a>

MMMmmm....v.interesting!

I have been using virtually the whole range of ASP engines since they first appeared, and have NEVER had a bearing failure.

ASP engines are generally regarded as a cheaper alternative to the more expensive brands, but with similar performance (at least in the short term).

However....I am certain that the bearings in a cheap(er) engine, are not going to be the same quality as the bearings in a "quality" engine. So.......in my considerable experience of the brand...they need looking after!.

Every flight ends with a full chat run. (Model restrained / approached from behind the prop).
The fuel line is disconnected.
A good dose of after run oil is poured into the throat of the carb.
The engine is spun round a few times.

I take it that before the arms came of the Teddy, all the above had been adhered to?

Your local high street bearing supplier should do a main bearing for about a fiver all up.

Simon.

he's one that lasted just 5 flights, although ,this time the bearings were fine, mine was the other way around.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i10jsJBldZs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i10jsJBldZs</a>

Different engine altogether........talk about kicking 'em when they are down!

different engine, but the same excuses

this one like mine however won't even be attempted to be sent back, just no point, a waste of postage.

Kin post disappeared again   Threaten them with trading standards. If that does'nt work, GET trading standards on to them. If it is not of merchantable? quality you are entitled to a replacement or your money back.

Mmmmm. Obviously one to avoid then  Not that I was considering one.........

I've actually seen a couple of these seize up at our field.

I've probably see catastrophic failures from just about EVERY engine manufacturer in my time.  There are many that swear that ASP are wonderful - and there are those that do the opposite.  Often based on limited data.

My experience is somewhat limited - all the examples I had were great.  No issues at all.

Here's the engine buying guide according to CTB:-

Consider if an OS will fulfil the function you require.

If yes then buy the OS.

If no then modify the function until the answer reads "OS".


Of course I'm now an electric flyer only......  So what do I know?

but remember when buying os buy spare bearings as well 

i should add to that
after 2 years of seeing  os50 and hyper engines (heli) have the bearings go awall for me i will stay away from them thanks
Ron
Ron

I have an ASP 52 that is absolutely brilliant and a purple-headed 56 that had some crank problems but that were fixed very quickly and under warranty without any argument and has been fine since.

Are we talking about the same company here?

So did you ever not do this on an ASP and have problems? 

Why on earth would I not want to go through this procedure after every flying session?. Look after the engine and it will look after you!.

I purchased an ASP 52  and was very pleased with the performance but the bearings did get very noisy very quickly with not many flying  hours  and was advised to change the bearings quite a simple procedure
Would have expected them to last a while longer as I always run the engine dry and use after oil
Replaced them with bearings from Ian at modelfixings and its prob done 4 times as many hours and not a hint of trouble
perhaps they do use cheaper bearings to keep the cost down

Hope you get it sorted

Geoff

I don't really get it.  I run OS 2 strokes, saito 4 strokes, RCV 4 strokes, an ASP heli engine all with conventional and ceramic bearings mixed in for years and never ever changed a bearing and only occasionally, maybe one flight in 5 use after run oil (2 stroke oil).  I only use model technics supaglow and weston prosynth though.  I've never used after run in my heli ASP engine and not had any trouble.

Cheers,
Rich

John Haytree told me many years ago that the bearings used in model engines were not designed to be used at the rpm, temperatures and lubricant levels we use them at, they were designed for a different purpose but on the whole when you consider how many bearings are in use around the world they don't do too bad.
I don't know if that is true but I can see the theory in it.
I've got an asp120fs, bought secondhand, the bearings sound awful and I really should replace them, but I can't be bothered and I am trying to break it just to give me an excuse to buy another laser to replace it   but it keeps on running, i even tried changing from ml70 to prosynth to see if the alledged "engine killer" tag of prosynth is true, so far after 1 1/2 gallons of prosynth after 2 gallons of southern modelcraft synthetic after whatever fuel type the previous owner used it doesn't seem to be, it does however squeak when turned over by hand when it is warm  
I do not now use any afterrun oil, tried it religiously for about 4 years in all my engines, had bearing failures in an os25fx a saito30 and an os61rf, I also had corrosion in a laser70 bearings yet the laser80 that was used just as much on the same fuel and same afterun is still corrosion free? why i don't know, neither does Neil Tidey who also says that bearings are used way outside their design parameters, some can be good and last forever some not. at around a tenner a pair I really don't worry too much now, just change them as soon as they feel a little rough.
I'm happy to listen to the 2 people mentioned above, between them they know enough.

I ve had s few ASP's . From 52's to 120's.

I only had one problem with a bearing on a 91 fs. It was well out of warranty date on the bearings but inside the 2yr GTee.,

I politely explained that the engine was little used and was run dry, oiled etc

J,E were brilliant They replaced the bearings, serviced and cleaned engine FOC.

I would use em again - and again - and again.

Its weird - I've used this forum for a long while and dont remember hearing a bad word about J.E.- loads of praise but no moans - suddenly loads of people start moaning.

I think we arent doin anyone any favours slagging off service and products before giving the retailer responsible a chance.

Jez

Sorry  but I personally fail to see the relevence of the J'en video - different brand and different failure.

Did JE sort this under warranty?

I can see the point of why the Bearings have only a 6 month life as they're more of a consumable item in an engine and are probably the one area that are impacted on the most by fuel type, running temperature etc. In a six month period some modellers will run the hell out of an engine and the bearings will go first, whereas I assume based on test data the rest of the components are calculated not to and therefore have a longer life period.

It's a simialr case with cars, your warranty may be three years but excludes wear and tear items such as exhaust, brakes etc. If someone does 20k in one month and complains the tyres are gone, then that's their problem.

Similarly it's understandable the related damage isn't covered as it's caused by something outside the warranty's scope. Especially as a worn bearing will give an indication in engine noise and the turnover feel.

Just looking from the other point of view!

So if the conrod on your car engine let go, came through the crankcase and damaged the bodywork you wouldn't expect it all to be repaired under warranty, what a load of rubbish of course you would. The piston and liner have failed as a result of sub standard bearings, they should all be replaced under warranty.

Regards - J

I can see the point of why the Bearings have only a 6 month life as they're more of a consumable item in an engine and are probably the one area that are impacted on the most by fuel type, running temperature etc.

Piston and liner more affected in this respect for sure

In a six month period some modellers will run the hell out of an engine and the bearings will go first, whereas I assume based on test data the rest of the components are calculated not to and therefore have a longer life period.

Well if these engines are shot after 3 hours operation, I won't be buying one for sure

It's a simialr case with cars, your warranty may be three years but excludes wear and tear items such as exhaust, brakes etc. If someone does 20k in one month and complains the tyres are gone, then that's their problem.

Similarly it's understandable the related damage isn't covered as it's caused by something outside the warranty's scope. Especially as a worn bearing will give an indication in engine noise and the turnover feel.

But would you see them refusing to replace alternator, water pump, starter motor or gearbox bearings? No you wouldn't. Either the engine is guaranteed or it aint, no halfway house.

Regards - J

I think we arent doin anyone any favours slagging off service and products before giving the retailer responsible a chance.

Jez

I'm sure I read earlier on that the engine had been returned to them and they have refused..... How much more chance should they be given?

it's unfortunate but the manufacturer has elected to make the bearings seperable in the warranty for whatever reason.

In the case of an automotive engine the manufacturer doesn't elect to make the components seperable and as such related damage would be covered. However, if your cambelt goes and it's done more miles than the directed change mileage...

Its weird - I've used this forum for a long while and dont remember hearing a bad word about J.E.- loads of praise but no moans - suddenly loads of people start moaning.

mainly because myself and others haven't used them for so long, and at the time having a go was causing problems for the team so we didn't say much often.
then Paul died and it seemed right to leave off.

however as this came up it looked exactly the same as the treatment myself and others have had in the past.
your not told the bearings are 6 months at the start, and I'd be worried buying one if they had that little faith in the engine quality.
besides, 6 months... is that the 6 months of hard summer use, the 6 months of nothing since you built it in the Autumn, gave it a quick test fire and are waiting for the weather or the 6 months it sat waiting in the box before you even put it in the plane.
this last one was my case with the Jen 37, it lasted 4 flights before they went, no point in even contacting them as it was beyond 6 months and i use ProSynth. new bearings but now the crank had snapped next flight.
it's sat in bits in a box ever since.

the first time i fell foul was with a Leo, the bearings went ( and took out the P&L ) after about a year IIRC, so i sent it back minus carb and exhaust.
Just Excuses, bearings 6 months, damage to P&L their fault, so sod ya basically.
they did decide to do me a deal, a new short engine for £14 less than catalogue price.
ok says i,.... DOH!!!  short engine, minus carb and exhaust... for £14 less?!! ripped off there.
then when i get it, wheres my old engine
we kept it in accordance with our service details.
no you blimmin don't, thats my engine, i paid for it, i paid for this new engine too, i want it back.

bit more that and that each way and i get it back with the section highlighted in red ( "so theres no misunderstanding in the future"    )
highlighted in red it said if you buy a new engine we will send back your old one in the state it's in



what with other club members suffering Leos melting just after starting coz the last batch were built wrong ( conrods in backwards by the looks of it ) crankpins snapping, crankshafts cracking and the like and Just Excuses coming back they have a very black name down here.

Plenty of people have had excellent experiences with ASP and Leo engines (Mine have all been very good - however my OS have been outstanding!).  However they do cost about 50% of the equivalent OS.  That money has to be saved somewhere..... 

One place is obviously in the quality of bearing used.  They seem more susceptible to wear out / corrosion than more expensive choices.

Is this a surprise to anyone?

Of course it's all a matter of customer usage plus statistics.  The OS are more tolerant and less variable.  As I said previously they also cost twice as much.

You pays your money and takes your choice.

Of course I now use that ultimate in reliability and longevity - Hacker!

Good post.

When my models used engines I mostly used OS engines because they were reliable, namely set 'em and forget 'em. I never replaced a bearing in an OS engine, in fact I rarely even moved the needle, they just used to start and run with utter reliability.

My mate used ASP/SC engines, a lot, for both him and his son. Now his son did used to fly a lot more than I did and they had excellent performance out of their ASP/SC engines, but they were always quite maintenance intensive and would get at least one set of new bearings each season. The engines worked very well, at a bargain price, but they did need quite a bit more work to keep them running.

He used to have similar success with MDS engines. It took a greater degreee of work to get them set up and they needed much more adjustment and swapping of parts, but if you're into engines and happy to do that they were perfectly workable.

Of course I now use that ultimate in reliability and longevity - Hacker!

Mostly true. I suffered a major bearing failure on an ACRO -XL on flight 2. Was all replaced FOC though. Others here have had bearing issues with Hacker too...

Most brands, regardless of how cheap or expensive, suffer failures at some point. We have guys at the Club with ASP/SC/LEO, and dare I say it, MDS, that have been flying them week in, week out for a good few years with no problems.
Others manage to break an OS/Saito within a few months.

As with most mechanical things, user interferrence plays a huge part.....

Hi all, as I started this post here whats happend. Just spoke to Just Engines and said I was not happy with the amount of flying hours I had from this engine, the guy said he will speak to Jenny. He called back very promt and said they can do a new engine with my exhaust pipe and carb for £35 I accepted this.

Sounds like they have come up trumps again. Customer service should be what its all about.

Hope your happy with the outcome.

Heard an aircraft at the patch a little while ago, flying around... It was a scale civilian type job, and I thought that it sounded absolutely wonderful... Had a real gritty growly authentic oldie sounding engine in it... Hadn't ever heard anything quite as scale sounding as this before... Asked a fellow clubmate what sort of engine it had... Apparently it's a normal sort of modellers engine (i.e. single cylinder goes when you flick it type thing) but the bearing in it were totally shot and were responsible for this wonderful scale like noise!

Obviously, my talents do not lie in the diagnosis of engine problems. 

Z

Hi all, as I started this post here whats happend. Just spoke to Just Engines and said I was not happy with the amount of flying hours I had from this engine, the guy said he will speak to Jenny. He called back very promt and said they can do a new engine with my exhaust pipe and carb for £35 I accepted this.

Whimp!

Whimp!

Stirrer. 

when you say "my exhaust and carb" are you are saying, they give you an engine block, to which is fitted your old exhaust and carb?
sounds like what they did for me, only if you think about it the £14 quid difference in my case was only half of what a muffler and carb would cost anyway, ie, they did pretty well out of it

whats the difference between the 35 and new 46 price with all the bits in the box.?


don't worry, done it myself... 16.99

so for 16.99 your missing a new carb, muffler, and all the little tools and bits in the box

a carb is listed at... 17.50   cha ching, their in 51p already
muffler   14.99


to fix the engine with new piston and liner, plus bearings is £49 vs the £51 new
thats without a ten quid conrod, you can see why they do the deal

so your 15.50 down and they've broken even i reckon. not bad to keep a good reputation


still think you were right in the first place, the warranty stinks.

correct me if i m wrong here. but ar nt sc and magnum identical to asp apart from the badge on the side. i beleive that sc and magnum offer a warranty without stipulating anything about bearings