Topic: Crash data & rule modification

  so sorry to do this to you nick 

Nicks provided some more valuble crash data for us, with an untimely departure of wings from fuzz........2nd flight on maiden flights it was going nice, perhaps the heaviest one yet, the motor took it of like a rocket still, just as nick got the trimming right and starting to feel nice and fast , the wingbolt pulled through the wing (little bit of ply missing )
The fuzz looked like a scud missile from sedam, with an estimated 60/80mph impact speed, it split and depated the bulkhead and departed the front belly pan only.....

Fuzz has already proved itself before from nicks previous testing  but what it did show was the motors rear shaft that sticks back into the fuzz can cause a problem and puncture the pack if the impact is hard enough, im sure the manfacturer will say otherwise (and invaludate any warranty) but im concidering removing the rear shaft (or protecting it) and making sure that there is some of that high density foam between the battery and bulkhead, could save a few packs
Nick that battery jettison and parachute method could be a winner 

sorry nick

Just a suggestion.

Push the shaft through the motor and use an off the shelf prop adapter on the shaft.

This is what I use on my Fusion and works well. Stuey uses the shaft through the bulkhead route on his and I did have the same concern to save on the battery pack.

Steve

i'm taking a dremel to mine and ordering a spare shaft just in case...

Stuey let us know if you can get hold of a spare shafts,

Steve, the shaft is held on with a circlip and has been desighed that the motor is turned around to use the normal off the shelf adaptor, but in doing so the other end wont except the motor mount

Lol you know me better than to think i'd be worried about the publishing of my crashing antics  

Was a bit surprised though - ok i didn't have the ply plate on the back of the wing but it was glassed and i'd moved the wing bolt forward so it was in a thicker part of the wing. There was also an approx 1" diameter plastic washer on the wing bolt  

Anyway thanks the the bullet proof nature of the design its easily fixable and should be back together in time for the open day  

That motor shaft is a bit of a pain, but as steve says the problem could be solved by reversing the shaft - but they dont give you the adapter with the motor so time constraints caused me to leave as was - the battery pack isn't actually punctured - but it does look a little second hand  

I think i've probably invalidated the warranty on my motor anyway  

Got a few pics - will post later  

Spare shafts

HERE  

Just out of interest (I know you missed out a ply plate) Where abouts does your front wing bolt go. My thought are that all the ones i've seen the wing bolts been to far back from the leading edge. Not saying this was but a warning to potential designers. Is it an increased moment on the bolt with the wing trying to always depart on a high wing if the bolts further back?

As for the motor shaft (and i'm sure none of use would do it!) don't saw it off!!! I'm sure you all know why

As for the motor shaft (and i'm sure none of use would do it!) don't saw it off!!! I'm sure you all know why

nope, why? 

Lost me too i'm afraid 

Mine had a dowel for the front wing fixing 

i'm worried about the whole wing fixing bit now... Am using the wings tongue but there is only about a 3mm thickness between the tongue and the lower edge of the wing... surely this could rip out on an extreme reversal?

As for the motor shaft (and i'm sure none of use would do it!) don't saw it off!!! I'm sure you all know why

Doh - rules say motors must be unmodified 

Doh - rules say motors must be unmodified 

it's hardly a performance modification is it? Dremelling off 20mm to save £60 worth of lipo is a no-brainer. surely no rules are going o outlaw that are they?

Please tell me there's another reason...

Don't saw the shaft else (like somone i knew ) you'll be removing steel dust from the magnets with a magnifying glass and tweezers for a week. Still I bet these ones are stainless and of course if you had half a brain cell you'd remove before you cut it! I'm saying no more

As for the wing securing. When we used wing toungues or wing dowels we used another vertical former in the wing behind the leading edge so that they were unable to move in foam. As for front wing bolts. The further forward the better in terms of moment load on the bolt head. Down side is the wing thickness will be thinner and less material to rip through. Perfect system would be tounge and bolt. Belt and braces! But i did the following on my white model. Used 4 wing bolts ala quickie 500. less load on a center bolt as wing cannot rock on wing seat keeping fuse on tighter.
1)Mark where wing bolts are going on the wing.
2)drill through with a small bit.
3)turn wing upside down and with a 1/2" copper tube sharpened twist and remove foam.
4)glue in some hard balsa or hard wood dowel with aliphatic
5)cut and sand flush and then drill your wing bolt hols as normal.
I did this mainly to stop crushing the wing when you tighten the bolts up. I also lined the wing bolt holes with a brass tube as extra security. On top of that i used a ply spreader bigger than than the balsa dowel.

All common sense i suppose but it help spread the loads on the wing bolt.

CK whose off to test another 2 models today and hopes his wings stay on!

it's hardly a performance modification is it? Dremelling off 20mm to save £60 worth of lipo is a no-brainer. surely no rules are going o outlaw that are they?

Please tell me there's another reason...

I did hope it was the wrong answer 

Full common sense has to be in force when scutineering motors chaps! Buy shortening the motor wires and fitting different bullets is modifying. Ban me for that and I'm off to play in my sand pit!

cool..... yes i will remove shaft before getting the dremel out./   

For no other reason than tere'll be a lot of hear being generated...  :cig :cig :cig :cig

Got to agree that in removing the shaft out the back to stop puncturing a cell is a good idea.

Right, juntors have had a look at the rules and made a slight modification to it

rules as they stand at the moment are

3-3 Motors may not be tuned or modified and can only be repaired using standard replacement parts.

how it will now appear

3-3 Motors may not be tuned or modified in any way that increase's preformance, and can only be repaired using standard replacement parts.

Rule change will be added to the rules and the nessecary alterations will be logged with the appropiate orginisations

cheers

Would I be right in thinking that the RCPT is the correct organization? 

If so you have missed our next meeting and will have to wait until the next meeting on the 19 September. 

Thus I guess this rule change will not take place until next year, am I correct? 

A note to the lads in the junta - bear in mind that you're probably better off using the CD's discretion at this stage, as the rules provide for, rather than making slight running changes to the rules. I say wait until you have some racing behind you before you make any changes, however small.

As for the packs - I'm not massively familiar with the layout, but perhaps a little bit of 1/8 birch ply held in place with a litle dob of silicon plus some heatshrink on the front of the pack as a shield would help and be easier than cutting and dremeling motors? I think a solution like that would be better than an amendment as subjective as "may not be tuned or modified in any way that increases performance" - get the wrong competitor and he'll be all over that one! If you have grey areas, leave them grey - put it in print and people think they have a right to an opinion (like me with this for example :laugh:) but leave it to a CD who is consistent and firm, and you've got a no-argument situation.

Zim

PS I'll suggest CK as a potential acting CD for E2K specific issues - he has extensive experience of F5D and loads of experience with pylon racing/ racers and could cut to the chase pretty effectively when required I'd say.

Stuey let us know if you can get hold of a spare shafts,

Steve, the shaft is held on with a circlip and has been desiged that the motor is turned around to use the normal off the shelf adaptor, but in doing so the other end wont except the motor mount

I was advise to push the shaft through the motor clip the circlip to the new end position and tighten the grub screw onto the mount. The prop adapter pushes over the shaft and clamps on just fine.

Or do I have to stick with the original and risk the lipo because of the rules?

Steve

+1 for CK being the man!

i don't think it's a recognised class yet, so the boys can do what ever they want ?? 

This is from the last RCPTC meeting:

Quote:

10) E2K
Geb Jones (BMPRA) distributed copy’s of the proposed E2K rules to the members of RCPTC to be run at the same meetings as club 2000. It was pointed out it was to be a beginners class for electric type club 2000 models and was a limited class for 4s Lipo and one motor choice. Max Poly had offered help to make it affordable in the way of supplying Lipo Packs at a discounted rate for competitors.
Geb Jones BMPRA proposed that the rule be accepted.

This was proposed by Geb Jones seconded by Steve Ogden

A vote was taken with 11 in favour 0 abstentions and 0 against

We did acknowledge that there might well be tweaks needed, but thought that it was far more important to get it up and running and then see if any changes were needed after the first season.


My personal feelings are that it should be left to run as is for the first year.

Extra work

Sorry lads juntas done its job as its supposed to, rather than having  a grey area. this resulution clarifys it without saying go cut bits of your motor or shorten/lenghen wires etc etc. that will be up to the individuel to do what he deems fit, and we feel it is also a saftey issue. and could save you a few quid in bent batteries  

So the rule modification clarifys a grey area.
CD discression works to a point, as the rule stood if someone turned up with a shaft alterations or wires shortened and somebody complains about joe bloggs plane is breaking the rules, the first area any good cd will look at is does it comply with the rules, in this instance it wouldnt because the rules did state clearlly no modification,

A cd's job is to make clear on the grey areas, but if the rules state that 4 wheels per vehichle and someone turns up with 3, its crystal clear, the CD cannot go against a direct/clear rule, as too how the rules were regarding motor modifications,
 

So what weve done is to cut the grey area out in this case and the decision is biased to the side of saftey(which comes highest on the list), a flattened/squashed battery could still burst into flames on impact (or whilst carring the plane), one with a metal rod stuck/punctured in it is more probable,
Weve looked at it carefully and felt that the decision is correct and done the job to the best of our ability acting as Juntors

We are a provisional class for the first year, it was never expected for us to have got it right on day one, There is a process for implenting such changes which is in process.
We can be up against a number of potential areas that could cause a problem, just as example we could find the motors after 2 heats all blow up, we couldnt run a class in thease circumstance's and may have to intoduce a second motor.

CD matters have been tacken care of

I hope that clarifys it a little better, Rule amendment stands, have a little faith in the juntor

Steve
the circlip is in a groove, ive just played with my one, good luck with trying to get the shaft to move, it takes a lot of force, hopefully you wont bend the shaft in trying to get it to move, if it will push through the circlip cannot be refittedi in a new groove as another one does not exist,but the grub screw can be retightened , is that enough, dont know, the smaller shaft will be weaker than the desighned/supplied prop fixing, how many will bend on a hard landing dont know.
with the rule change does removing the rear shaft in anyway enhance the preformance, no
so the choice will be down to the individuel and at thiere own peril (swarth likes magnets)

cheers

Think I'll just do whatever Stuey does

Steve

I'd do the CD part if I knew I would be at most meetings. Last year was my first full club2000 season for ages. Not saying I won't be at most but I cannot garauntee it. I think Darren has just made it clear to me that he is the man for the job

Think I'll just do whatever Stuey does

Steve

bring on slasher sheep.

Guys

Its a very minimal change in the wording rather than the spirit of the rules - in practical terms it makes very little difference. As you all know I dont do arguing or politics and there's just nothing to argue about here   There's apparently a very simple mechanism to submit such things which once again in practical terms wont affect the way meetings are run at all., Its just a very simple clarification  

So lets not worry to much about it and get back to talking gollocks and taking the uno what  

Otherwise I wont post the pictures of my wreckage  

I'd do the CD part if I knew I would be at most meetings. Last year was my first full club2000 season for ages. Not saying I won't be at most but I cannot garauntee it. I think Darren has just made it clear to me that he is the man for the job

how are you going to miss any when I turn up and haul your a s s out of bed and into my car if you say you're not coming? just wondered 

I'd do the CD part if I knew I would be at most meetings. Last year was my first full club2000 season for ages. Not saying I won't be at most but I cannot garauntee it. I think Darren has just made it clear to me that he is the man for the job

Im gollocks if im having that job its a job Nick kindly offered some time ago, i think he has some secret weopon for disputes  

Dont actually remember offering but yeah i'm up for it 

Just remember i dont do arguing - so if i'm in charge i'm right - end of 

Anyway you've talked me into it 





 

I thought all lipos looked like that?

well most of mine do 

Wow we have lots in common! Although I feel vastly inferior, I have to admit. No plastic Stetson you see.

Z

Ahhhhh - one day you may reach the dizzy heights to which you aspire 

Do you know sometimes even i'm amazed by the drivel I can type   

Guys

E2K needs to get some racing under its belt, you should be aiming to present your new rules to RCPT for their meeting in early 2010, this allows you a season of racing to find your direction.

This will enable you to bring your rule mods to your 2009 AGM and then ask the BMPRA to present them at the above mentioned RCPT meeting.

Get some models in the air and find out your problems!

Regards

Baz

Get some models in the air and find out your problems!

Regards

Baz

Precisely that was done barry

Wing fixing on high wing mounted pylon racers.

Try to keep away from front dowels, in particular the centre line single type.

Try to keep away from two bolts, one front and one back.

Try to use 4 bolts , two front, two back. If you only use 3 bolts use two front and one back.

Nylon bolts of 6mm dia are quite OK or machine screws of 4mm dia.

Try to have blocks either dowel or balsa end grain below the wooden wing skin. and a little glass over these bolt areas.

Everything above is try and make the wing tight on the fuz. Has anyone considered a one piece model?

Fast models are usually stiff, straight, well finished and light in that order, assuming equal power plants. The first good flyer who turns up with models meeting those requirements will probably wipe the boards in a class like E2K.

Regards

Baz

Baz, C2000 models have been using 2 bolts for years, there are also a handful that have a tongue and one bolt 

2 bolts or 4 bolts?, 4 bolts is the best for removeable wing, one piece model will be best overall.

Baz

4 is great, but access is needed fairlly quick and often for battery changes,
Nick made a mistake of relying on 25g finishing cloth and 2 skins of vaneer and some foam, with hine sight the end result for him was inevtible

As with the original wasp and the kit the front of the fuzz wraps around the front of the wing, uses one bolt at the back and underneath there is 2 ply plates fixed to the underside of the wing to ensure no movement
nearlly 6 months of testing with no problems, steves mk 1 wasp as seen on the video was done with a front dowel and 1 bolt at the rear, again no probs, also the same for the cotswold tracerc20, dowel and one bolt, wasnt your shark the same too barrie