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Author Topic: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'  (Read 53614 times)

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Offline idigbo

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Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« on: November 01, 2009, 18:53:04 PM »
 I have been very fortunate to inherit a part built 1/8 scale model of this wonderful piece of aviation history. The span is 16 1/4 feet with a length of around 11 1/2 feet. It was designed and part built by the late Peter Neate, construction started in the late 90's. The design was basically an enlargement of his smaller 11ft HP42 which he built in the early 80's. On the LMA paperwork that came with it, the target weight is 50lb, which if I'm honest seems completely unachievable. I am keeping to Peters design, which is well and truly flight proven. There are a couple of mods to make to keep the inspector happy, plus a couple more mods to improve the scale fidelity, since more info has come to light since the original smaller model. Helena was the last HP42 built, originally as an HP42W, it was soon converted to E format. It ended its life with the fuselage being used as an office by the Royal Navy!!

 What are these strange carbunckles? My guess is rudder trim tabs, but are they linked to the rudder, or a separately ' controlled' surface? You can see the closed loop connections between the rudders, then a pushrod out to the tab type jobster. Or is it fixed. Looking at the left hand end of the tailplane you can see a small bracket at the rear of the tab, lining up with the upper triangulated fixing. Could that really be the pivot point, that far back on the surface?

Ian.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 23:42:03 PM by idigbo, Reason: An intro added since I changed the title »
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Offline PDR

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2009, 18:56:34 PM »
They are "servo tabs" - they reduce the forces required to operate the controls. You'll find them on lots of aircraft wherever the controls aren't powered, even on large jets. For example you'll find them on the ailerons of Boeing 707s.

PDR
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Offline idigbo

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2009, 19:03:33 PM »
Cheers, PDR, I knew you'd have a reply. So, the rearward pivot point on the tabs would give a better balance for the whole yaw control since the airflow would try to deflect them further, as opposed to the rudders, which would try to be neutralised by the airflow. That sound about right? So they are permanently part of the rudder control system?

Cheers, Ian.
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alan c

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2009, 22:09:47 PM »
boost tabs Ian,  to take the strain off the pilots tootsies,   look at the lancasters elevators, and ailerons, they stand out a mile,     they intrigue me,  and i have often wondered why we dont use them on models, as they would offset the servo load quite a lot

Offline idigbo

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2009, 22:17:48 PM »
I will go down the operational tab route Al, if only because they are there on the real one, plus I will have an answer for the question when someone asks!!

Ian.
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Offline PDR

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2009, 22:30:46 PM »
Nearly, but not quite. These are servo tabs, where the pilot's controls are connected to the tabs, and the tabs then move the control surface - there is no direct connection between the pedals and the rudders. With boost tabs the pilot's controls are connected to both, and the tabs just reduce the loads. Boost tabs (also sometimes called "balance tabs") are much rarer.

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Offline idigbo

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2009, 22:43:09 PM »
Now I am confused!!

In the pic you can see on the middle rudder, the cables going forward (presumably to the cockpit controls) The outer rudders are connected via closed loop cables to the middle one. The tabs seem to be connected to the forward horn of the outer rudder, so are driven by the rudders, so, though it pains me to say it, does this mean that AlanC may be right on the boost tab front?

Ian.
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Offline PDR

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2009, 22:57:42 PM »
Can't be 100% certain because the photo is infuriatingly indistinct in the important areas. The way I see it the tabs are hinged at the base and the upper struts. The strut you can see at the midpoint is (I think) actually a pushrod that drives the belcranks inside the fins (connected to eacother with cables that run through all three). I think the horn you can see on the centre rudder is actually hinged on the rudder post, and is simply a transfer linkage to a short rod that drives the belcrank inside the centre fin. This connects the pedals to the tabs, and the tabs then drive the rudders (geared up a bit by the lever ratios).

On the other hand the horn could be fixed to the centre rudder and that would make them boost tabs as Alan suggests - my only reason for doubting this being that it looks a bit too frail. Compare it to the chunkiness of the elevator horn and pushrod, even though the elevators have shorter chord and will have less throw.

PDR
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Offline tsr

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2009, 09:36:53 AM »
Hi,
THis looks awfully like an HP42/45 and if it is, and you are in the midst of a build project it might be well worth contacting Team Merlin who are or will be building a full size one and have pretty well completed the historical accumulation and compilation of documents and plans. Their website is Team Merlin - Menu

Contact the team leader on: neil@team-merlin.com
Or one of the rest our team will be ready to help
with your enquiry on: info@team-merlin.com

James
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Offline idigbo

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2009, 09:49:55 AM »
Hi,
THis looks awfully like an HP42/45 and if it is, and you are in the midst of a build project it might be well worth contacting Team Merlin who are or will be building a full size one and have pretty well completed the historical accumulation and compilation of documents and plans. Their website is Team Merlin - Menu

Contact the team leader on: neil@team-merlin.com
Or one of the rest our team will be ready to help
with your enquiry on: info@team-merlin.com

James


Cheers James, I have already contacted them to see what info they can provide but as yet had no reply. I half presumed that the project had slowed somewhat since the passing of John Farley. Do you know if the full size project is still ongoing?
It is indeed a HP42 and yes it is well underway. It was 90%built by Peter Neate in the 90's but still has some interesting bits to finish off. A couple of areas I need full size info on are the slats and these tabs, most of the rest I can sort using the info I have already, but it'd be nice to make these two features operational.

Ian.
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Offline tsr

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2009, 10:19:29 AM »
Ian, you have probably already been through this but you might have a look at 1930 | 1453 | Flight Archive as it is a piece on the HP42.

There are other mentions of it here Browse Flight's archive of Historic Aviation

I also found this document to be quite interesting on control systems in general. http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public//PubFullText/AGARD/AG/AGARD-AG-332///AGARD-AG-332.pdf

I do not know what the current state of play is with Team Merlin.

James
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Offline idigbo

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2009, 10:54:37 AM »
Those links have provided some brilliant info James

Many thanks, Ian.
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Offline tsr

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2009, 11:44:33 AM »
Handley Page invented slots along with a chap called Lachman I think and made a lot of money from them in the '20's so they probably have a patent on their design which may well be what was used on the HP42.

James
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Offline idigbo

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2009, 22:01:46 PM »
Many thanks folks, further rooting around has come up with the term 'balance tabs' which, looking at the linkages on a bigger photo seems to show that the whole lot is controlled from the closed loop on the middle rudder, then out to the outer rudders, finally out again to the tabs. Really would be a great feature to fit to the late Peter Neates model, along with the Handley Page slats. I have played with slats before and found it reassuring if they can be locked shut, but released so they can do their own thing during the slow or steep bits. They can pop out assymetrically during turns and such which can then make a pilot twitch. Still no reply from Team Merlin so it might be that they are no longer going down this route, which would be a great shame.

Tar muchly again, Ian.
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Offline Ali

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2009, 04:07:09 AM »
Oh nooooo! Not more delays for the 262 I hope  :'(
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Offline alanh

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2009, 06:20:15 AM »
Hi Ian
How about some pics of the project when you have time

Alan
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Offline idigbo

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2009, 09:46:50 AM »
Oh nooooo! Not more delays for the 262 I hope  :'(

No Al, this ones due for more work April next year, just collecting info and sorting out some drawings of the revisions I want to make. Hopefully to have it flying well before Cosford next. Heres a few pics of it so far.

Ian.
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Offline tsr

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Re: Trim tabs or what?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2009, 01:08:16 AM »
Will it fit the trailer? It looks fabulous but where are you going to find all those 12" tall passengers? ;)
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Offline idigbo

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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2010, 20:40:25 PM »
Awaiting some resins drying in the shed, I took the HP out to weigh it and check the CofG today and had a bit of a suprise to say the least. The original target weight was 50lb on the LMA over 20kg paperwork, which seemed initially slightly optimistic, since this is a big old bird, with lots of struttery and acres of wings. The all up weight at the moment tipped the scales at portly 80lb which had me suspecting my scales :xx  Nope, a 56lb weight weighs 56lb :'( No wonder I need stronger springs on the U/C ! That said however, when I worked out the wing area, then the wing loading, I was very pleased to find it coming in at around 1.6lb sq.ft. which very pleasantly suprised me. Last month I dragged me old drawing board out and drew up the linkages for the slattery and the rudder tabs, which should be great conversation pieces out on the flight line. :uk:

Ian.
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Offline Norfolk'n'Good

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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2010, 20:44:35 PM »
Are those the 1st small Zenoah's I can see the Kalt 22cc?

Offline idigbo

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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2010, 20:57:10 PM »
Yes NFG, they are Zenoah 22 petrols. At the 50lb weight there'd have been power a plenty, at 85 to 90 lb there won't be much in reserve I feel. Safe, but not to haul it out of a short strip!! The dummy engines need finishing. Since the dummies are so small, they wouldn't have hidden any motors apart from the 'walnut whip' RCV120's, but the reliabilty and practicality of the Zenoahs will pay off in the end.

Ian.
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Offline Norfolk'n'Good

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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2010, 22:08:44 PM »
I assume no chokes, points and condenser behind the flywheels unless the latter 22's changed?  I'm running one (purchased in the 80's new 249) on a 15 X 8, tried a 16 X 6 but found it had less pull.  What props are you going to use on that monster? 

Offline philbert121

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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2010, 09:19:01 AM »
Hi Ian,

As well as being an Axis warbird freak, I love 1920-1930's air liners. Now I know, hidden in my Mum's loft a book about this one. I will have to find a reason to go to the farm and dig it out.

Phil Gould.
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Offline idigbo

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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2010, 20:14:00 PM »
Hi Ian,

As well as being an Axis warbird freak, I love 1920-1930's air liners. Now I know, hidden in my Mum's loft a book about this one. I will have to find a reason to go to the farm and dig it out.

Phil Gould.

Cheers Phil, that'd be great  :af  The more info I can find the better the finished HP will be. Info on this full size is certainly quite hard to come by. I can even make you a brew in me new kitchen if you drop it orf :xx Plus, did you ever root out that book on Peak crash sites? $%&



Ta matey, Ian.
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Offline steamysheep

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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2010, 21:24:33 PM »
Hi Ian,

As well as being an Axis warbird freak, I love 1920-1930's air liners. Now I know, hidden in my Mum's loft a book about this one. I will have to find a reason to go to the farm and dig it out.

Phil Gould.


guys, you must watch bbc4 on saturday 7th feb at 8pm.. high flyers, how britain took to the air...... insight into the golden age of air travel during the 1920s and 1930s
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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2010, 21:42:41 PM »
hi Ian,

I found the crash site book, even went up the Roaches with it.

I will endeavour and rumage for the other.

Phil
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Offline idigbo

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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2010, 22:55:53 PM »

guys, you must watch bbc4 on saturday 7th feb at 8pm.. high flyers, how britain took to the air...... insight into the golden age of air travel during the 1920s and 1930s

Is this the programme that was on about a month ago? If so it was brilliant, lots of info on the HP42 :af

Ian.
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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2010, 08:55:47 AM »
Ok the following film clips will not help with any detailling but still interesting enough. The commentator on the second clip is pure,

"By gad sir, its British"


      YouTube
            - Bomberguy's Channel
   



      YouTube
            - Bomberguy's Channel
   




Mike

Offline idigbo

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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2010, 09:47:08 AM »
That Bomberguy really has some fantastic footage. Be careful on there, the day'll be gone!!! ;D ;D

Ian.
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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2010, 20:30:00 PM »
I assume no chokes, points and condenser behind the flywheels unless the latter 22's changed?  I'm running one (purchased in the 80's new 249) on a 15 X 8, tried a 16 X 6 but found it had less pull.  What props are you going to use on that monster?  

Shaun, the props are 18" x 6" Smart wooden. They are doubled up in the scale way to become four bladers. The scale diameter is 17" so these have been trimmed to suit. During a 'waiting for paint to dry' moment, I took the HP outside to investigate the old Zenoah's. They were new for this model, bought before it was built so the firewalls etc could be designed for a good fit. It was rumoured that they had been run at the time but I was hoping that they hadn't since that would surely mean they'd need a carb refurb kit. Four carb kits later they were back on the model, all four ran great on a 16" x 6" two blader. Tuning for the bigger props mant a few tweaks on the needles but they now run great on the big four bladers. Tickover is superb, with no deadspots although if the throttle is whacked open then two always stop, but then again, why would you want to whack them open that quick $%& The pull with all four going was very encouraging. Will it be enough we'll have to see. The sound though is superb, that lovely drone as the motors are in synch is superb. It may be possible to make more of the missing dummy engines, to hide a bit more Zenoah, but in reality, the dummy motors are so small that any engine would be visible to some extent, apart from electrickery of course!! Also, heres a quick doodle of the slat linkages and the proposed rudder / servo tab set up. I did a proper drawing of the slats which was then handed to my local cnc cutter, aka mate and fellow forumite Ceejay, so he can cut me a full set of links and brackets all the same, theres four linkage sets per slat, so any differences would soon introduce some binding. Drawings have been done for the replacement tail surface parts but it may be some time before I can get to make them :embarassed:

Ian
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 20:35:27 PM by idigbo »
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Offline Allan631631

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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2010, 20:48:09 PM »
Was this enlarged from the Ken Williams plan?

If so i new him great modeler. built everything from scratch, a real master. He built many designs but would never publish them, far to medest i think. !  The HP $" was the onley one that ended up being available as a plan.

Unfortunatly a unknowen master of modeling who is no longer with us.


If it was or was not his design, it looks really good ian!!
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Offline idigbo

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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2010, 20:57:27 PM »
Was this enlarged from the Ken Williams plan?

If so i new him great modeler. built everything from scratch, a real master. He built many designs but would never publish them, far to medest i think. !  The HP $" was the onley one that ended up being available as a plan.

Unfortunatly a unknowen master of modeling who is no longer with us.


If it was or was not his design, it looks really good ian!!

Hi Allan, this one was a design from the late great Peter Neate. It was direct a blow up of his smaller 11.5ft HP42 which was built in 1982/3. In the pile of plans and drawings that came with Peters model, there was a small free flight plan of the HP, I'll root it out to see if this is the one you have mentioned :af

Ian.
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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2010, 06:15:39 AM »
Hi Ian

No it wont be that one,

The one ken designed was around the 10 ft mark i am ure of it.

Best of look with it i will be watching.

Looks great!!
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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2010, 12:39:18 PM »
A Big one of these  flew at our last couple of fly-in's

By the looks about the same size - I think he had glows in origionaly but now gone to crrc pro 26's

Bit of a beast to be fair - but seemed to fly on 2 3 or 4 engines....

Dont think he ever got down to 1 though..

Chris
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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2010, 15:03:30 PM »
A Big one of these  flew at our last couple of fly-in's

By the looks about the same size - I think he had glows in origionaly but now gone to crrc pro 26's

Bit of a beast to be fair - but seemed to fly on 2 3 or 4 engines....

Dont think he ever got down to 1 though..

Chris

There were two 1/8 scale HP42's up until last year. The other one, which is now no more, had 4 x Zenoah 26 in it. This one of mine I was suprised to find is apparently heavier than either of the other two, with less power too :xx

It'd be nice to see the pair in the air together :xx :xx

Ian.
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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #35 on: December 15, 2010, 20:46:36 PM »
In an attempt to make it a bit lighter and include more details, new tailplane parts have been made to include the balance panels on the rudders, along with removable surfaces all round for servicability. The original parts used a fair bit of hardwood, most of which has been replaced with balsa and liteply. Hopefully this will have saved about 1.5lb in this area, which might mean I can take much more out of the other end, which is 12.5 feet away. For some reason my camera is in 'period' mode, and will only let me have black and white pics. How quaint?! :banghead:

The pics show the new rudders and the closed loop set up. These cables are mostly temporary just to prove the system, which seems to work very smoothly. The balances will either be remade or fretted out with as little material left in as deemed neccesary. This machine really needs to be one of those models that seems to waft around the skies. :xx

Ian.
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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #36 on: December 15, 2010, 20:54:30 PM »
The balances have the hinges made from brass tube sewn to the liteply, vintage stylee, with piano wire forming the hingepin. The bottom hine goes through the tailplane rear spar. The top triangular bracket is glass sheet with a tube soldered at the hingepoint, again, a pin slides down to locate. The pushrod from panel to closed loop is glass sheet too, bushed in all the right places. Even in this experimental stage, there is no slop noticable between one side and the other. The rear closed brackets on the rudders are pivotted at the rudder centre line to ensure constant cable tension throughout the travel.

Ian.
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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #37 on: December 15, 2010, 21:06:12 PM »
What an interesting project . Looking forward to seeing this one in the flesh Ian.
When do you think it will be flying. You hoped for Cosford is that still a possibility.

Simon
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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #38 on: December 15, 2010, 21:15:21 PM »
You hoped for Cosford is that still a possibility.

Simon

'Tis a definate mate, it'll be all sorted out by then. There shouldn't be any flying issues since it is a direct enlargement of Peters oringinal 11 footer which performed very well for ages. The only slight worry is power, the other two are the same size but have either 4x Z26 or some Chinese 30's or similar. This beasty has Zenoah 22 of mid 90's vintage, but I have tuned them to swing scale 'double decker' props at the expense of hod rod throttling. These props look bizzare in side view when running :o

Ian.
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Re: Handley Page HP42E 'HELENA'
« Reply #39 on: December 15, 2010, 21:19:31 PM »
Whatever your doing to this old girl,   your doing it well,  it could not have gone to a better caretaker :af

 

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