Topic: DS Newbie thread...

Barely over being a newbie myself but someone else made a post in another thread about wanting a resource for newbies into DS. I guess he means what model to start with etc...

I'll start, but hopefully more qualified types will chime in...

To start DS tbh you can do it with almost anything. Foam's a great way to start as you will tend to have the odd indiscretion. But don't hamstring yourself too badly with a heap because you've convinced yourself that you will destroy it. A model that's too knackered to fly well on the front will probably be just the same on the back!

Any chevron wing will do as a starter. Venom's DS pretty well, as does the Slipstream - both UK available. However, where DS does differ a fair bit from frontside stuff is that you generally want a little more weight. It definitely helps when you're starting out to be able to carry a little more weight to help give you the momentum to make it through those inevitable mistakes. So as a starter model I'd say you could do a lot worse than either a Venom or a Slipstream, but built with a double layer of cross weave tape at +45 degrees to the span and -45 to the span. Allow the tapes to cross over each other in the middle to give the nose a little more weight too. Then cover it in tex or something. If you already have something like that, then just give it a couple of extra layers of tape and you'll be good to go.

The extra tape will make it stronger but also give it the bit of extra weight that helps to smooth DS out a bit. As for how to do it - well just watch lots of videos, and when you're on the hill, ask for help. Most likely there will be someone there who will be only too willing to show you the ropes.

Zim

Nice one Zim

However

I'd have a Windrider Bee or Beevolution over a Venom any day... I've had a Venom and a mates Bee out classed it in every way... except in combat but thats what the Venoms built for.

Its cheaper too and available in the UK

You can get them as a Windrider kit or they're sold under the Irvine brand as the X-it.

Steve

Good suggestions.

Another, faster newbie option is one of Ron Broughton's Balistiks.

But don't make the mistake I did (for ages.... ) & stick with flying wings for DS: the various planks are far better behaved & faster.

So move on quickly to a JW60, Half-pipe 60,  M60, Polecat, or similar (including Sniper type home-brews, if you can get your hands on one).

And get yourself a suitable mouldie. Buy a cheap second-hand RTF  MicroflohXL/Destiny, Mini Dragon, Mini Blade or similar; so if it does go in it doesn't break the heart & bank account.  But each, set-up well, will provide a rewarding level of control, though a bigger wingspan makes the job easier.

By which time, the addiction will be irreversible

Make sure that at some point during the fastest point of the circuit you get the model pointing square on with the speed gun, this would usually be in the bottom turn and gun man standing next to the pilot or further outside the circuit.
   
Im pretty confident that Zim could of added at least 10mph to his PB yesterday on a few laps if he hadnt messeed up the bottom turn by pulling the elevator while not being banked over enough etc, causing the model to climb up at an angle to the speed gun therefore not getting an accurate reading. i could hear that the plane was faster than the previous lap (110mph) but unable to get a reading,
   
 But dont point it at the gun man for to long or you will just hear foul language instead of numbers,

Although Chevrons make great DSing machines they are not the easiest planes to learn the DSing art on IMHO. As deckit says go for a plank, they cut through the turbulence, and retain energy much better. Also don't  spend hours making it look good, you will probably crash it sooner rather than later and just undo all that good work. Just build it strong with a couple of carbon (golf club shafts) spars and put 175mil (or 250mil) "new stuff" (laminating film) over the top. Good old zagi tape can be used to add some colour as can signwriters vinyl. Then go and fly it like you stole it.

Doug

Nice one Zim

However

I'd have a Windrider Bee or Beevolution over a Venom any day... I've had a Venom and a mates Bee out classed it in every way... except in combat but thats what the Venoms built for.

Its cheaper too and available in the UK

You can get them as a Windrider kit or they're sold under the Irvine brand as the X-it.

Steve

Nice one mate - I was only offering advice based on the stuff I've flown. Great that you've flown them too and can offer a better alternative.

As for the plank thing - IF you have experience of setting up a plank already, then go for a plank for sure. If not, then learn plank set-up frontside first and do your DSing with a chevron whilst you learn that. Took me ages to get my HP60 working well. More out of me continuing to fly it in a bad set-up out of ignorance than taking ages trying new set-ups. However, once I made a couple of changes and got the set-up nailed (like using the manufacturers recommended CG ) I had an epiphany and realised just what a sublime, awesome machine it is.

In terms of chevrons though, when you're talking Ron Broughton's Superonik models i.e. the Balistik and the Sblitz - they're in a totally different league to what most people understand as a chevron foamy. They're the Mike Tyson of chevrons. But without the bite.

Z

I would like to start on weather.
As a newb, you don't want big wind days.
Sunday past will brilliant for learning and putting loads of laps in. It was about 15mph over the top.
If you have only just enough wind to get up, you will have a perfectly clean back side that will be rewarding.

Will

Who doesn't know everything but knows what worked for him.

Chevrons also offer more durability with no nose or pointy out fins to snap off meaning a green pilot can spank it in to their hearts content and continue the good fight.

 
 But dont point it at the gun man for to long or you will just hear foul language instead of numbers,

  excellent advice there - very true!!

Z

Find some experianced DS'ers to take you out and show you the ropes as it were. You can watch it on Utube but there is nothing like seeing it for real. Then get some coaching from yer mates.
Unless your a 'god' expect it to take a few trips for you to work it out and get your laps to the right place / height or even direction... 

Then get ready for it to take over your flying...
You have been warned! 

Yahoo!
George

Get used to crashing at the start , and if you do go with others make sure there not going to take the p1ss for weeks after ( you know who you are )

Lee

They sound terrible! Come fly with us instead Lee - we NEVER do that 

Z

Here Here! Never! 

Get used to crashing at the start , and if you do go with others make sure there not going to take the p1ss for weeks after ( you know who you are )

Lee

yeah come fly with us Lee .....we wouldnt fly over yer head while you were picking the bits up .........

They sound horrible lee!

   The kind of people that would midair you at the bottom of a circuit and just carry on as if nothing happened. But then if I owed someone £500 fo a moped I never paid for I wouldn't expect them to be nice to me!

Lol

What you need are people who are nice enough to do portraits of you DSing... 

lol cants the lot of ya

What you need are people who are nice enough to do portraits of you DSing... 

Portrait???  I'd probably be so slow they'd call it a Still Life........................

RIGHT, I have a well flown Slipstream, only reinforcing tape is one strip to LE, thin 10x1mm strip carbon spar, 240g, sounds ideal........... 

Only joking............ 

Sorry Guys.... just re-read that, and need to qualify............."well flown" means flown a lot, OK, not the other meaning!!   

What I DO have though are a couple of sets of Slipstream foam cores, so that's "what" then, and I'll certainly do the 45/45 taping plus LE strip on top.  And colour...........I NEED colour!!

MMM, Velcro rip-off fins or taped?? and of Correx or the German stiff EPP??

What Servos??  65MG's, 82MG's ??

One issue might also be where I am though, the sarf east (mate).....................need good beginner locations??

Can't help you with the locations, but here's answers to your other questions...

Give your foam a jolly good gooping first - type in Palmers Metals into Google - they're in Coventry - they will mail it to you. Ask for the Marine Goop. Thin it with a Toluene based thinner - this is available from motor factors like Partco etc - anywhere that sells car paints. It is NOT cellulose thinner - it is the stuff that is used to thin the base coats of 2 pack systems. Thin the goop out enough so that it will soak into the foam before you do your first taping. Do maybe 4 coats.

Do your 45 tape, then give it a light sand, another coat of thin goop, then your second tape, then a light sand, another thin goop then solartex. Really easy to work with and doesn't tend to split when pounded in. If you want to go the extra mile, then a nice extra touch is to run another layer of tape before the tex which is parallel to the leading edge top and bottom over the whole wing. It will cross over in the centre to add some serious strength at the front. The extra weight won't be a problem.

Fins - do them taped on with cross weave as per the normal Slipstream way. Velcro isn't a good plan I'd say.

Servos - 85mg would be fine rather than 82s.

Z

Marine Goop not yet on Palmer Metals Website, will be with new site in Jan, till then, telephone order only:-

A-MG37      Marine Goop 3.7fl.oz. Tube £4.50p + Vat
A-MG102      Marine Goop 10.2 fl.oz. Cartridge £6.15p + Vat

Postage starts from £1.00p + Vat

Zim posted
[...They're the Mike Tyson of chevrons. But without the bite.]

Kiwi Steve, an NZAF trained jet pilot & now commercial airline pilot, drew my attention yesterday to the true meaning of "Balistik".
Wonder if Ron was aware of it when adopting the name

BTW, understand Ron B. is not so well at the mo.
His presence on the slopes has been missed of late.
So here's wishing him well & a rapid return.

Second that Graham - get well soon Ron!!

Z

Also to be fair, the JW60 is a great DS start out - really benign to fly and still the fastest foam in the world when built for it.

Z

+1 on JW 

Following the advice above I have built a FlyingWings Slipstream with hopefully a bias towards DS use.  

Didn't spend that much time on it, but it has the supplied big tubular spar AND a curving flat strip carbon spar, double reinforcing taped cross pattern all over, third layer in impact zones. I run 800mAh 2S Lipo and UBEC on all my fleet.  Weighs out at 531g with CG at 180mm (std Slipstream) without added ballast. (As an example, my other Slipstream is 260g)

After missing the good wind (in between the rain showers alias deluges) of Monday as I was working until too late in the day, Tuesday almost didn't happen..............Checked wind 09:30............ 7mph and FALLING....................  

Went to slope anyway...............and not enough to even feel on face, there were Pampas Grass plumes in a garden standing still..............and COWS (and byproducts)  

Oh well, I'll just throw it into the longer grass on the incline well above the main slope then and check trim..............  

One light throw showed the trim was near enough, and there was now a just about feelable airflow, so, heck, it's EPP, so throw it enough to get a few yards.....................and it lifts into a climb.............astonished, I hop the bush it's headed for, and it just carries on climbing...................Strewth!!

Quick left and along the slope lip, dare not turn off into the void with no apparant wind, so downwind it is, and it carves round smoothly and makes it back to me with little height loss, turn 180 degrees off slope, another cross, downwind turn another pass and land.

At this point an experienced guy with a trainee's Easyglider managed to stagger it off the slope to quickly return.

I repeat the above flight almost exactly, and while I'm staggered it flies at all in next to nothing, decide that is that for the day, it's only going to end up in a bush eventually and so I transfer to my powered Windrider Fox, which has the "Get out of Jail" card.

Now, since aggressive names and "signature" logos are "it" with DS, the name and graphics?...........Er, yes, well, the graphics...........OK, have a look, guess what it's called................

http://www.atomic-album.com/showPic.php/22727/BW_Top_Web.jpg

http://www.atomic-album.com/showPic.php/22727/BW_Bottom_Web.jpg

   

Oh Boy do I look forward to some wind...............  

 Just purchased Adams Ballistik with the intention of learning to Ds.

 I'm hoping that because Adams been Dsing it, the Ballistik will remember what to do and teach me

 I've never tried Dsing before, as my local slope's around kingsclere have no suitable ridge.

 Whumcrump is my nearest Ds site, so i'm eagerly waiting for a suitable westerly.

 Anyone got any advice on learning to Ds there

 When i've been there before in a westerly to see how its done, nobody has been there

 Round and round looks "Simples" to me .... i mean to say.... how hard can it be

  Stuart  
 

As long as you have the right model (you have) and remember to dig deep enough and not too far away from the hill, you'll figure it out in no time.

Z

As long as you have the right model (you have) and remember to dig deep enough and not too far away from the hill, you'll figure it out in no time.

Z

Just hope i dont have to "dig deep" to pull it out the side of the hill

  Stuart   

I had my first go recently.  It's quite different to front side flying to be honest. the way the energy is generated is not what you are used to. And normally you would avoid being low down on the lee of the hill like the plague if you were front side flying.

The technique seemed to be knowing how far to go down the back of the hill to go and at which point to turn back to the lee side as you came back up the hill.  The other thing I thought was quite difficult was getting the roll angle of the model right.  If you are too rolled over you can pull it in to the hill at the bottom (which I did) and if you are not rolled over enough you pull out and go too high or straight up. 

My advice as a fellow newbie would be to go with someone who knows what they are doing and knows how to fly that hill.  And listen to what they are saying. even if it is Zim!

What Zim said, get stuck in and figure it out. If what you're doing isnt working right change something, whether that be your circuit, entry, model set-up etc

Sounds like you're onto a good start with adams ballistic, but a badly set-up model can make things tricky, frustrating or both.

Have fun!

What Zim said, get stuck in and figure it out. If what you're doing isnt working right change something, whether that be your circuit, entry, model set-up etc

Sounds like you're onto a good start with adams ballistic, but a badly set-up model can make things tricky, frustrating or both.

Have fun!

  Thanks for your advice Zim, Tom and Pasty

 I'm going to have a few front side sessions first to get used to the Ballistik before attempting to Ds it.

 Frustratingly though, its forecast to be perfect for "Whumcrump" this sunday,  15 mph Westerly and sunny

  Stuart   

[..Just purchased Adams Ballistik with the intention of learning to Ds...]

Stuart:

Think you'll find that putting a few laps together is surprisingly straightforward, it just takes lots of practice to obtain consistent results.

Obviously, conditions need to be right at the hill - check that the vegetation on the backside is either still or nearly still. You won't know the height/position of the shear until you've done a few exploratory laps. Your plane needs to be under the shear for most of a circuit.

It's imperative with the Balistik that it's not over-ballasted for the conditions, so start light. Otherwise it has a tendency to tip-stall into the hill on a hesitant bottom turn.
Get it trimmed perfectly for fast flight frontside then, before diving into the back, apply a couple of clicks of downtrim & one click of "opposite lock" - that's a click of left if you circuit clockwise & right if anti-clockwise. It assists both in holding up the plane over the deck during a circuit & in countering a tendency to flick when passing through the shear on the upward leg.

Keep a decent elevator rate, but reduce aileron rate before entry.
Let the plane fly round, don't fight it!

Good luck

[... Frustratingly though, its forecast to be perfect for "Whumcrump" this sunday,  15 mph Westerly and sunny God Give me Strength]

Then go for it!
You only have to adjust the plane to your tranny & taste! Shouldn't take too long.

 Thanks for your advice and encouragement Deckit

 Ive probably watched every Ds video on you tube to try and get a better understanding of how to do it.
 
  Stuart   

Hi Gromit, I have been dsing whumpcrump fairly regularly, it needs a west to wsw to work well and winds around 12-15 to get any consistancy. Have found a few other places that work also, pm me if interested. I live in Pewsey, just the other side of Marlborough which sounds like it might be fairly close to you. Best site to learn on around here is 2 miles up the road from me, needs a nw, and though only a small hill works in all wind strengths from almost no breeze upwards.
    I have been learning to ds for 5 years now, the best advice I can give is to be on the right type of hill in the right conditions, its fairly easy to put some circuits together then. Basically, link up with some people that know what they are doing, or come fly with me if your desperate.

Mark

I am sure some of your mates can do it.... how hard can it be?


George

the best advice I can give is to be on the right type of hill in the right conditions.

OK, so I'll give up any ideas of doing DS then..............................   


 

OK, so I'll give up any ideas of doing DS then..............................   


 

Er No Dan the Brave, get out there and have a go dude!
Givin up is for Pussies!
 

I have had several go's at DSing and found its easy to do the roundy roundy bit , Its the getting speed into it consistently is the hard bit , So go chuck it off and have fun
Oh and I didn't have anything like the model your now equiped with ( a pmp bedlam )

Lee

Organise to go with at least one other person, preferably one that has experience DSing. Your brain says NOOO when you dive over the back the first time, and I found my thumbs did the bail-out for me.
It was much easier and safer with competant friends