Topic: panorama tonight

remeber the applicant would also get to see the details and would have the option of discussing it with the club officials IF he/she felt it appropriate.

that also allows for incorrect information being held on record - which also happens.

Chris

It should be down to the club to make the decision, one club might find a reformed drug dealer acceptable whilst other may not.

J

get 25/30 kids in a class.

When i went to Comp in the 70's our class sizes were on average 33 pupils. Teachers prayed for classes of 25, and they did not have " teaching assistants"

My wife has an enhanced crb check and its quiet interesting. At her school allthe staff have been told that they will be rechecked under the new system and depending on what they out they may lose their jobs or be re assigned.

My wife has an enhanced crb check and its quiet interesting. At her school allthe staff have been told that they will be rechecked under the new system and depending on what they out they may lose their jobs or be re assigned.

Thats about right, same here too!

J

It should be down to the club to make the decision, one club might find a reformed drug dealer acceptable whilst other may not.

J

The insurers might not agree.

Pat, I think you will find that it is the BMFA who make the decision, albeit to the insurance companys rules.

So someone in the club will get to know rather than no one as you stated?

No, all anyone in the club sees is the certificate to say you have clearance, they do not get to see your criminal record.

The problem then is, if you are refused for any reason, everyone gets to know you have been refused, and then you are suddenly 'the pervert'.......

The problem then is, if you are refused for any reason, everyone gets to know you have been refused, and then you are suddenly 'the pervert'.......

Hopefully you only get refused if you have a history of being dangerous to kids, in which case it doesn't really matter. However there will be hiccoughs with any system.

hopefully it's easier to pass a CRB/ISA check to be a club instructor than it is to put an advert on the BMFA classifieds site.......

hopefully it's easier to pass a CRB/ISA check to be a club instructor than it is to put an advert on the BMFA classifieds site.......

Almost as easy I would say, but then again it's very easy to put an ad on the classifieds site.

Hopefully you only get refused if you have a history of being dangerous to kids, in which case it doesn't really matter. However there will be hiccoughs with any system.

as long as I am not one of the hiccoughs......

Patmac you are right shows what happens when you try and just remember these things. So with regard to Ian Huntley prior to his employment in Soham.

Social services looked into four separate complaints of him having had sex with underage girls - one was just 13 - and an allegation of indecent assault on a 10-year-old.

The police were involved in all but one of these cases and also investigated three separate claims by women who said Huntley had raped them.

He was also charged with a burglary, although the case was dropped when it came to court.

In spite of all this, Huntley emerged without a conviction - only the burglary charge was placed on the police national computer and that was on the orders of a judge.

He applied for the caretakers job at Soham using the name Ian Nixon although he did say that he was formerly known as Ian Huntley. The checks that were made only looked at the Ian Nixon name and the school say that they would not have employed him if they had known about the burglary charge. One of the Chief Constables was relieved of his post as a result of the investigation. Social Services said that they only worried about the victims.

Patmac you are right shows what happens when you try and just remember these things. So with regard to Ian Huntley prior to his employment in Soham.

Social services looked into four separate complaints of him having had sex with underage girls - one was just 13 - and an allegation of indecent assault on a 10-year-old.

The police were involved in all but one of these cases and also investigated three separate claims by women who said Huntley had raped them.

He was also charged with a burglary, although the case was dropped when it came to court.

In spite of all this, Huntley emerged without a conviction - only the burglary charge was placed on the police national computer and that was on the orders of a judge.

He applied for the caretakers job at Soham using the name Ian Nixon although he did say that he was formerly known as Ian Huntley. The checks that were made only looked at the Ian Nixon name and the school say that they would not have employed him if they had known about the burglary charge. One of the Chief Constables was relieved of his post as a result of the investigation. Social Services said that they only worried about the victims.

IIRC the Home Sec at the time David Blunkett wanted to sack the Chief Constable in question but was frustrated in this & I think he took early retirement a few months later.
I don't think Huntley would have got the job if the info had been in place when the CRB checks were been carried out. Also I think his job at the time would only have warranted a standard check whereas now it would require an enhanced check. 

I know that all AKAs are registered in the PNC even if someone gives a joke one like Donald Duck when first apprehended. So even if he hadn't volunteered the name Huntley it should have been picked up by a standard check. 

that i dont agree with, class sizes are alreay big enough.. you can already get 25/30 kids in a class.. and you want more??

smaller class sizes means any problems with a child can be picked up easier as the teacher will have more time to notice these things. Plus there can be less disruption.when my 8 yr old was in a class of 25 when she was 5/6 the teacher kept telling me there were no probs..running battle i had with that school..to the point where they told me, she was up to speed in one neeting..then finally they admitted she wasnt. Now look where she is, in a class of about 10/15.. and all the problems she has were picked up literally within a couple of weeks after she started her school she is in now.

There arent enough teachers as it is, so your proposal for bigger class sizes, will mean the children and the teachers will suffer.

Which is nowt to do with ill intentioned "bad" adults which my slightly tongue in cheek comment refered to. No illwill meant Maz. I said what i did as the end does NOT always justify the means as you pointed out.

Hi

Just to clarify, when an application is made via the BMFA, the actual checking is done by a third party.
The third party then send the applicant's disclosure certificate direct to the applicant, all the BMFA are told is that the process has been completed successfully, or that there were problems.

The BMFA would then inform the member's club.

Hope that helps.

Nige

Pat, I think you will find that it is the BMFA who make the decision, albeit to the insurance companys rules.

No, the BMFA have no authority to make the decision.

The problem then is, if you are refused for any reason, everyone gets to know you have been refused, and then you are suddenly 'the pervert'.......

Anyone who is likely to be refused will also know this before they think about applying for a disclosure so are unlikely to make it known they are about to apply or won't apply.
The CRB checking doesn't just apply to protection from paedophiles. 

Hi

The insurers make decisions about what risks they will, or will not cover, not the BMFA.

Obviously, the BMFA work with the insurers to negotiate the very best arrangements they can for model fliers.

As the BMFA provide advice and guidance to aeromodellers on matters like insurance, its easy to assume that the BMFA decides, but its the insurers who make the underlying decisions.

Nige

Lets get this straight, then. I apply (to the BMFA, through my Sec) for a CRB check. This goes to a 'third party' whoever that may be, they then check and decide if I have a 'problem', they then tell who? Does this go to the BMFA or the insurance company, and, if there is something wrong, I get a copy? If I dont get a copy, then I can not argue that any problem is untrue? Who is this 'third party'? Do the insurance company then inform the BMFA, or the other way round? And as all insurance companies talk to each other these days, will that 'problem' be available to any insurance company I apply to in the future? Anybody know? PS- you may have noticed that I have a suspicious nature- comes from being shafted by people I trusted....

ack i hate it when i write a reply and it dissapears. 

anyway.. as i said .. its a good question bob.,and one in which id like to know the answer.. i may get asked it when ive gotta tell peeps they need a crb check.


<copied just in case.  >

they dissapear? I thought it was me being modded!

Lets get this straight, then. I apply (to the BMFA, through my Sec) for a CRB check. This goes to a 'third party' whoever that may be, they then check and decide if I have a 'problem', they then tell who? Does this go to the BMFA or the insurance company, and, if there is something wrong, I get a copy? If I dont get a copy, then I can not argue that any problem is untrue? Who is this 'third party'? Do the insurance company then inform the BMFA, or the other way round? And as all insurance companies talk to each other these days, will that 'problem' be available to any insurance company I apply to in the future? Anybody know? PS- you may have noticed that I have a suspicious nature- comes from being shafted by people I trusted....

These questions have all been raised, answered & discussed ad infinitum. I suggest you do a little googling yourself to get the facts from the websites of government & organisations that are registered to do the work instead of relying on opinions & prejudices. 
Key words to use would be "disclosure" & "CRB".

they dissapear? I thought it was me being modded!

naw.. crappy connection.. at the mo, if a page stops loading..i open a new one.so far got 5 open on rcmf, 4 are continuously connecting but doing nowt..

Lets get this straight, then. I apply (to the BMFA, through my Sec) for a CRB check. This goes to a 'third party' whoever that may be, they then check and decide if I have a 'problem', they then tell who? Does this go to the BMFA or the insurance company, and, if there is something wrong, I get a copy? If I dont get a copy, then I can not argue that any problem is untrue? Who is this 'third party'? Do the insurance company then inform the BMFA, or the other way round? And as all insurance companies talk to each other these days, will that 'problem' be available to any insurance company I apply to in the future? Anybody know? PS- you may have noticed that I have a suspicious nature- comes from being shafted by people I trusted....

The insurance do not get anything, they have simply said clubs have to have a child protection policy, the BMFA came up with some very easy to follow guidelines, one of which involves CRB checks. If your check doesn't come back clear (which is highly unlikely as you wouldn't submit for it if it was likley) you can then investigate why and challenge any "mistake" on it.

Lets get this straight, then. I apply (to the BMFA, through my Sec) for a CRB check. This goes to a 'third party' whoever that may be, they then check and decide if I have a 'problem', they then tell who? Does this go to the BMFA or the insurance company, and, if there is something wrong, I get a copy? If I dont get a copy, then I can not argue that any problem is untrue? Who is this 'third party'? Do the insurance company then inform the BMFA, or the other way round? And as all insurance companies talk to each other these days, will that 'problem' be available to any insurance company I apply to in the future? Anybody know? PS- you may have noticed that I have a suspicious nature- comes from being shafted by people I trusted....

I suggest you read post No 175.
The Insurance company are not involved, in the check or results.


  Tom

These questions have all been raised, answered & discussed ad infinitum. I suggest you do a little googling yourself to get the facts from the websites of government & organisations that are registered to do the work instead of relying on opinions & prejudices. 
Key words to use would be "disclosure" & "CRB".

And there was me thinking that this was a forum for discussion.    The question raised (on this thread) was whether the BMFA looks at your record, or a third party, or the insurance company. Right. I have trawled through the 'flow charts' on the BMFA website (who thinks up this gobblydegook?) and find this:
first, the club does a formal interview and verifies the identity of the applicant, who has filled in an application form. They send this to the BMFA who then 'initiate a CRB check'.  They then decide whether to refuse or accept. There is no mention of insurance companies or third parties. So from that I glean that the only people who see your record are BMFA staff. I would imagine that the BMFA staff are not at liberty to reveal any details, even to the applicant. You either pass or fail.
Just read Big As' reply- there is nothing mentioned on the website that I can see about challenging the decision.

Which level of disclosure is requested by the BMFA, Basic, Standard, or Enhanced?

And there was me thinking that this was a forum for discussion.    The question raised (on this thread) was whether the BMFA looks at your record, or a third party, or the insurance company. Right. I have trawled through the 'flow charts' on the BMFA website (who thinks up this gobblydegook?) and find this:
first, the club does a formal interview and verifies the identity of the applicant, who has filled in an application form. They send this to the BMFA who then 'initiate a CRB check'.  They then decide whether to refuse or accept. There is no mention of insurance companies or third parties. So from that I glean that the only people who see your record are BMFA staff. I would imagine that the BMFA staff are not at liberty to reveal any details, even to the applicant. You either pass or fail.
Just read Big As' reply- there is nothing mentioned on the website that I can see about challenging the decision.

Of course it's a forum for discussion but not the same things over & over.
The insurance company is only interested in the CP&VA policy terms being met.
It would be a criminal offence to reveal an applicant's confidential records or to retain unnecessary copies or handle them without reasonable security.
If you had a look at any of the agency websites you would find that they have a process to deal directly with you in event of a disputed record. IIRC they will actually ring you when they realise a check can not be passed. This is primarily intended so as not to cause any delay in a job application so might not be how a BMFA initiated disclosure is handled.
 

Just read Big As' reply- there is nothing mentioned on the website that I can see about challenging the decision.

Why would there be? That would be down to you to sort out with whichever quango has the duff info on you. I suggest you give the BMFA office a ring and ask to speak to either Dave Phipps or Manny and I am sure they can answer any questions you may have.

Personally I think there is a lot of worry over not a lot going on. If there is nothing on your "record" to worry about get CRB'd and carry on passing on your knowledge and experience, if you thin k there may be a problem, don't. Simples!!