Topic: panorama tonight

The new legislation and “authority” is here.
Independent Safeguard Authority - Home

I get involved with this through teaching Karate in a club where the membership includes a large number of children, so of course have to be CRB checked regularly. It is honestly no big deal.

If you go on “child protection courses”, one of the first things you learn is to protect yourself against false accusations – e.g. always ensure there is someone else (preferably another adult) around as a witness, etc.
If you stop and think about it, this also protects the child – it works both ways!

Anyone teaching kids (and vulnerable adults) has always been open to risk of accusation/prosecution. All the current publicity/legislation does is make it clearer what the risks are - nothing has really changed – just a new form and a new name.

I can’t let this stuff stop me getting on with my life – I just do what I always did but perhaps with a bit more thought.

Dick

For God sake you'd think people were asking for your life in paper format..

Is one form - I really dont see the issue.

The main check as far as I know if if your listed or have been on the sex offenders register - which you can be admitidly for fairly minor issues for a short period of time.

Though I have to say i'm not totally sure what the implications are though my past is not by any streach whiter than white.

I had a very "entertaining" childhood with 3 or 4 brushes with HM constabulary, and that hasnt stopped me having 2 consecutive Enhanced CRB's 2 years appart.

Chris

So she doesn't visit friends houses? her school has a good filtering system? the youth club ditto? Doesn't have a mobile phone with text/internet?

There are more ways than you might think!

J

I did say "as long as she is only accessing them at home". However, she does have a mobile but, at the moment, uses it very little (£10 lasts her about 3 months) and she doesn't use computers at friends, only Wiis.
Again this legislation dosen't help in these situations.



Tom

I did say "as long as she is only accessing them at home". However, she does have a mobile but, at the moment, uses it very little (£10 lasts her about 3 months) and she doesn't use computers at friends, only Wiis.
Again this legislation dosen't help in these situations.



Tom

My point exactly.

J

The main check as far as I know if if your listed or have been on the sex offenders register - which you can be admitidly for fairly minor issues for a short period of time.

That may be the main check and that's not so bad but then there's the complete Criminal Record Bureau check (including all spent convictions) and the check of police files for cautions and any intelligence or suspicions etc. So they may well be looking at all the details of your past but have just decided that they're not important enough to bar you at the moment. Next week they may decide on different barring criteria and hey presto you're out. Note, the ISA and/or the current minister can decide from time to time who they feel like barring, no further legislation required.

So is it still paranoia when they really are out to get you :( ?

Steve

well, as one of the waverers, I refused- yes on a principle- to have the check. I am now thinking of having it, as it seems my instructing days are over otherwise, and that would be a shame, I have taught hundreds, of all ages, to fly, and feel I should continue. What I am annoyed (outraged?) at, is that everyone is treated as a possible abuser, and that seems wrong. The CRB check simply means you have not been caught yet. It does not mean you are safe to be with kids alone, as John pointed out, you still have to protect yourself with witnesses. I imagine a certain glam rock singer would have passed a CRB check in the past....so, really, just what USE is it?

so that when something bad happens the witch hunt can't include the powers that be.

so that when something bad happens the witch hunt can't include the powers that be.

and I thought I was the cynic!

how dare you!

The bit about suspicions and "soft evidence", to me mind is pretty clearly linked to the Soham Murders. i.e why was Huntley allowed to work near kids when there were previous "suspicions" or arrests against him, but not convictions (correct me if I am wrong any body).

I hate to see British justice go the way of the American legal system (e.g based on base ball (3 strikes and you're out??!) and other nonsense).  

The fact that we can all remember and name individual cases were children have been killed etc just goes to show how (un)common they actually are at that level of criminality.

As I say if everyone is pre-checked then the "powers that be" (tin hat alert! ) have done all they could have done in effect.  Don't get me wrong that is not really the governments fault as it's always the same way after a bad event - e.g why didn't somebody do something before hand with their crystal ball.  

It does strike me that most legislation these days falls broadly in to two categories - arse covering and extracting money from the tax payer.

No it wont stop people lying if they want to - but there really isnt anything else you can do - after all when your watching police camera action on TV the boys in blue always ask - "have you had anything to drink tonight sir ?" when pulling over a suspected drink driver.

Dont recall that many saying " oh yes officer 7 or 8 pints.. Why ?"......

They then set about proving their case.

Chris

how dare you!


It does strike me that most legislation these days falls broadly in to two categories - bottom covering and extracting money from the tax payer.

you got that 100% correct that is all it is
no matter what you do you are watched not long and you will have a bar code tattooed on your arm
Ron

What I am annoyed (outraged?) at, is that everyone is treated as a possible abuser, and that seems wrong.

Not sure I see it that way, imagine finding out your child has been abused by a known abuser, it is a fact that abusers will try to get themselves in to a position of trust with children. I'm not sure what else could be done other than ensure anyone in a position of trust isn't a known abuser. Thats all the CRB check can do. It is as much as can be reasonably expected. Having to have CRB checks done is a good thing, it's the implementation that is at issue surely?

...American legal system (e.g based on base ball (3 strikes and you're out??!)...

Personally - I like this!  It only applies to 'serious crimes', and IMHO if you repeatedly commit serious crime you don't deserve to be on the streets.

As to the CRB, it is a sad indication of the way our society is going wrt over-legislation, but is done with the best intentions.  I'm all for protecting kids and if you are serious about being an instructor in the modelling game, I believe you should jump through the hoop and get the check done.  The hobby will be better off without the types who refuse the check 'on principle' - these guys have lost sight of what being an instructor is all about.

I believe you should jump through the hoop and get the check done.  

As it happens getting the CRB done through the BMFA is probably easier than jumping through a hoop, and free too!!

a lot of adults are scared of children now. doesn't seem right to me.

its not so much as scared of children, its what the kids can come out with.

Put it this way.. i told my eldest off.. she threatened to call childline.. she actually rang them up. i didnt know it was them on the phone when i took the phone out of my daughters hands as she was crying and i thought maybe some prat was giving her grief on the phone.. all i could hear down the phone was heavy breathing so i then started giving the person on the other end of the phone grief calling them a heavy breathing pervert and if they called my daughter again id call the police!!.. didnt i feel a t1t when my daughter butted in to say shed called childline to talk about her dad as that was what our row had been over.

Kids are told all their rights at school.. its drummed into them.. bullied etcc..call this number..speak to so and so..and thats good for genuine cases, but you will get some kids who will make anything up to get a teacher into trouble.

I found on that programme , the bloke John who worked wih Autistic kids.. his case was awfull it takes a special kind of person to work with autistic kids.

I didnt see the programme, Maz- I suppose I am of the opinion-'it has nothing to do with me and why should I have people prying into my past when I am just doing something without charge to help others'. I may look at it differently if I had young kids, I agree. Maybe if we had a suitable punishment for these crimes (answers on a postcard please, or the bleeding hearts will be on to us) then the problem would be much smaller. I have decided to ask our Sec to contact the BMFA with regard to applying for the check as soon as practical, before the Spring is upon us. Not 100% happy about it, but thats our Britain, isnt it?
 

Ok, so, Just say for instance that 40 or 50 yrs ago, In the 1950's & 1960's, you ran with a wild gang of kids, who did stupid stuff like stealing cars, & spotlights & stuff from cars, & some 'mindless', vandalism. Classed in those days as, i think, 'Petty larceny', you were convicted, fined, & served, a year on probation, but have never done anything since, coz you learned your lesson.

NO IT'S NOT ME ! But i do know a guy who would love to start teaching kids to fly models, ( I gave up teaching flying, to anyone, about 5 yrs ago ). My mate is worried that his "murky" past might just come back to haunt him.

Would the legislation as it is, go against him ? Or Is there some sort of "Statute of Limitations" in there, or is it going to be held against him forever ?
Cheers.
Ray

I had the same worries when I applied for my first CRB “ticket” a few years ago and had to declare my “dodgy” past.
Tell your mate not to worry.  The system is only concerned (currently) with questionable issues with children.

For example, I got done about 30 years ago for making my own .22 calibre machine gun. . . Yes, really. 
 I only made it for my own personal amusement and I was very proud of it when I finally got it working properly.  It had a magazine which held 45 rounds and it spat out the (home made) bullets at 15 per second --- and I had three magazines. 

Serious stuff, eh….!   But it seems they didn’t mind me making a machine gun …… as long as I hadn’t shot kids with it.   

B.C.

I had the same worries when I applied for my first CRB “ticket” a few years ago and had to declare my “dodgy” past.
Tell your mate not to worry.  The system is only concerned (currently) with questionable issues with children.

For example, I got done about 30 years ago for making my own .22 calibre machine gun. . . Yes, really. 
 I only made it for my own personal amusement and I was very proud of it when I finally got it working properly.  It had a magazine which held 45 rounds and it spat out the (home made) bullets at 15 per second --- and I had three magazines. 

Serious stuff, eh….!   But it seems they didn’t mind me making a machine gun …… as long as I hadn’t shot kids with it.   

B.C.

what else would you use it for?

Please excuse me if i am being a bit dense!

Does this legislation only apply to instructors and commitee members?

What about the rest of us who just go and fly now and again, and maybe come into contact with the odd junior flyer? It seems to me that most kids can out fly us in a few months anyway, so they wont be needing an instructor for long!

So what if...you are flying at your local field, with some of your mates, and a few juniors...and then everyone goes off down the pub, leaving you on your own with a junior (could be a 17 year old, with his own car!)...

Are you commiting an offence, if you are not CRB'd?

again, sorry if I have got this wrong!!

Well I must admit this country is doomed. I have been flying models for 31 years, teaching people/kids to fly for maybe 27 of these. It does just make you feel like saying Bo****ks to it all. I do feel sad that there may be a shortage of help now for kids due to this ruling.
Just my 10 penneth.
Richard.

I absolutely agree, a few in our club refused CRB's on principal..... makes one think!

J

That I am sorry is something I object to, and I wil say why. I have taken lots of kids swimming, fishing, boating, Highland Dancing, and Judo. I will not take part in crb as the very thought insinuates I am a danger without any grounding in fact and would have to prove I am not.

Well I must admit this country is doomed. I have been flying models for 31 years, teaching people/kids to fly for maybe 27 of these. It does just make you feel like saying Bo****ks to it all. I do feel sad that there may be a shortage of help now for kids due to this ruling.
Just my 10 penneth.
Richard.

thanks Richard my feelings exactly. i ve been flying about 15/16 yrs and teaching for all but 18months of them. Im the silly sod that will give up his time on a cold day to teach someone when no one else is flying but i must admit over the last few years teaching has become a bit of a chore and i don t enjoy it as i used to. Call me selfish if you like.
If i needed a crb for work i would nt hesitate but at the end of the day this is a hobby and its just one step to far for me in this nanny / police state
also as others have said i m just not comftable with it

That I am sorry is something I object to, and I wil say why. I have taken lots of kids swimming, fishing, boating, Highland Dancing, and Judo. I will not take part in crb as the very thought insinuates I am a danger without any grounding in fact and would have to prove I am not.

Oh do give over.

Its not you proving you are or are not a treat to anyone - if the Club proving we have checked to make sure.

And as a club cannot check with your crimal record directly - this is the only way.

Chris

As I said, I see no other way but to fall in line and have this check, but I am in total agreement with pylon, the country is doomed. How the hell did I survive as a kid? How did any of us survive without CRB? it IS b0ll0ks.

Please excuse me if i am being a bit dense!

Does this legislation only apply to instructors and commitee members? .............
So what if...you are flying at your local field, with some of your mates, and a few juniors...and then everyone goes off down the pub, leaving you on your own with a junior (could be a 17 year old, with his own car!)...

Are you commiting an offence, if you are not CRB'd?.............

Quote from the ISA site:-
"We will assess every person who wants to work or volunteer with vulnerable people. Potential employees and volunteers will need to apply to register with the ISA."

So it appears that if you are just on the field at the same time as a junior you do not have to be registered - only if you are teaching them on a regular basis.

However if you are on your own with a junior the new legislation changes nothing - you have always been in a dodgy situation. BUT it didn't worry you before so why should it now?

If anyone really has doubts about their situation why not ask the ISA - I did. Contact details:-
Independent Safeguarding Authority

Dick

That I am sorry is something I object to, and I wil say why. I have taken lots of kids swimming, fishing, boating, Highland Dancing, and Judo. I will not take part in crb as the very thought insinuates I am a danger without any grounding in fact and would have to prove I am not.

Thats a bit like saying I've driven a car for years without having a crash therefore I'm not going to take a driving test. It's a measure of a standard, frankly I find arguments like this ridiculous. If you care about children and want to help them a CRB is a no brainer.

J

However if you are on your own with a junior the new legislation changes nothing - you have always been in a dodgy situation. BUT it didn't worry you before so why should it now?

Because now (or more accurately 1stNov), a single phone call malicous or otherwise can end my career, thats why. No proof needed just an accusation.

CRB is fine, at least you have a fair opportunity to defend yourself in court, if a court finds you guilty then fine but the latest ISA stuff is scary IMHO.

J

I wish some of you would get a grip, how many of you have HPi checks done on cars? a CRB check is no different, any offences that are on record will be disclosed, the fact that you nicked a can of pop in 1955 won't matter from our point of view, if however you were in the girls changing rooms (assuming you're a bloke) at the swimming pool while a school session was in progress may be a different matter. CRB is simple, quick and seems fair to me for all sides.

J

Because now (or more accurately 1stNov), a single phone call malicous or otherwise can end my career, thats why. No proof needed just an accusation.

How is that any different to how it has always been?

How is that any different to how it has always been?

because i believe now, any accusation will stay on your file, whereas before, it had to be a conviction.

because i believe now, any accusation will stay on your file, whereas before, it had to be a conviction.

Ok, so the accusation stays on file, surely so will the fact that the accusation was "malicious"?

How is that any different to how it has always been?

If I made an accusation about you and children, the ISA would review and investigate it. Even if they find no case to answer or I withdraw the allegation it would still appear on your record that an allegation was made. Now, apply for a job working with children after this, what do you think would happen?

You don't get the opportunity to defend yourself in a court of law, one unfortunate teacher of Autistic children had an allegation made against him which was later withdrawn and it still remains on his ISA record, he hasn't worked since.

The potential in a school for a disgruntled pupil to mess with your career is scary and no, it's not always been like this, innocent until proven guilty used to be the way. One accusation, you're guilty until proven innocent but then you only get back to less guilty.

J

Ok, so the accusation stays on file, surely so will the fact that the accusation was "malicious"?

That doesn't seem to be the case.

so, guilty even if proven innocent? Thats not the country I want. Pylon is right about this, its b0ll0x. As I said, I am going through with it, kicking and screaming, but dont anybody say that 'its not a problem', because the whole situation with the ISA and everything is ridiculous, one phone call destroying a career? We need to get a grip on this country, before we lose whatever justice we have left. As for the CRB check being there for our benefit- well, no its not. When it comes to a situation where we can not go to the law of the land for justice (for instance with the CSA-the other'SS') then our freedom is lost.

so, guilty even if proven innocent? Thats not the country I want. Pylon is right about this, its b0ll0x. As I said, I am going through with it, kicking and screaming, but dont anybody say that 'its not a problem', because the whole situation with the ISA and everything is ridiculous, one phone call destroying a career? We need to get a grip on this country, before we lose whatever justice we have left. As for the CRB check being there for our benefit- well, no its not. When it comes to a situation where we can not go to the law of the land for justice (for instance with the CSA-the other'SS') then our freedom is lost.

I have no problem with CRB, it shows your potential customers / employers that you have a clean record or that any previous misdemeanours may not affect what you do now (their choice). As I said before, in my club if your CRB showed you'd nicked a can of coke 10 years ago it wouldn't worry me, if on the other hand you were involved in drug dealing than thats a different matter.

IMHO there are no 'good' reasons to refuse a CRB check.

J

I have no problem with CRB, it shows your potential customers / employers that you have a clean record or that any previous misdemeanours may not affect what you do now (their choice). As I said before, in my club if your CRB showed you'd nicked a can of coke 10 years ago it wouldn't worry me, if on the other hand you were involved in drug dealing than thats a different matter.

IMHO there are no 'good' reasons to refuse a CRB check.

J

Fair enough John- I suppose what I am mostly angry about is the situation where someone can be accused, and even if you PROVED it malicious, then you are effectively, soiled goods.

if however you were in the girls changing rooms (assuming you're a bloke) at the swimming pool while a school session was in progress

J

How the hell did you find out? 

Fair enough John- I suppose what I am mostly angry about is the situation where someone can be accused, and even if you PROVED it malicious, then you are effectively, soiled goods.

Thats NOT CRB mate, CRB will only show convictions, it's the ISA that can tarnish you without conviction or the opportunity to defend yourself.

J

How the hell did you find out? 

Hope the ISA aren't monitoring 

J

As I said before, in my club if your CRB showed you'd nicked a can of coke 10 years ago it wouldn't worry me, if on the other hand you were involved in drug dealing than thats a different matter.

IMHO there are no 'good' reasons to refuse a CRB check.

Did it occur to you that there may be those who are not keen on herds of people not of their chosing getting to read the details of what they may have done 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago ? As you rightly say it's all disclosed whether it has any relevance to the job in question or not.

So do you really have complete trust in everyone who may see this sort of information ? No chance of anything like "Who'd a thought it of boring old XXXX, he used to nick stuff when he was a lad. Just wait for the next time he starts on the 'yoof of today'."

Just checking round a few of my old clubs and there are now 3 who won't do any training, you need an A cert to join. and a couple more who won't take any junior members even if they don't need training. I don't like it, it seems more than slightly short-sighted, but I can understand it.

Steve