Topic: panorama tonight

THen those clubs are hugely short sighted. From my own club, we find an attrition rate in fliers-ie those who, for various reasons, leave each year, of 10-15%. If there are no new fliers to replace them, then in a few short years there will be only a few members in those clubs. Whatever the problems placed upon us by a snooping, nanny state, we HAVE to keep on instructing, which is why I have agreed to be checked. The alternative is a hobby increasingly based around foamy park flyers. I do agree with your sentiments, tho- its a hobby, and we dont get paid to teach, so why bother if it places us under suspicion? Its a sad old country these days.

Did it occur to you that there may be those who are not keen on herds of people not of their chosing getting to read the details of what they may have done 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago ? As you rightly say it's all disclosed whether it has any relevance to the job in question or not.

Did it occur to you that the majority of people do not have a criminal record and therefore it wont be a problem and furthermore, the ones that do, the club should treat it with sensitivity. I would think the majority of criminals will not apply for a CRB check in principle so not a real problem.

So do you really have complete trust in everyone who may see this sort of information ? No chance of anything like "Who'd a thought it of boring old XXXX, he used to nick stuff when he was a lad. Just wait for the next time he starts on the 'yoof of today'."

It should really be looked at by a small number, not the whole club and treated confidentially, suggest secretary and chair.

Just checking round a few of my old clubs and there are now 3 who won't do any training, you need an A cert to join. and a couple more who won't take any junior members even if they don't need training. I don't like it, it seems more than slightly short-sighted, but I can understand it.

So do we risk child abuse instead?

J

At my club juniors have to always been accompanied by a parent or guardian.  There is no requirement for any certs (it's a slope soaring club so no-one has any anyway).  I think we only have one or two juniors anyway, but it isn't really encouraging is it.  As we fly at a country park, kids do often take an interest in what we are doing, but it seems to mostly be an old(er) man's game. 

At my club juniors have to always been accompanied by a parent or guardian.   

It appears that that is not good enough now.......

Did it occur to you that there may be those who are not keen on herds of people not of their chosing getting to read the details of what they may have done 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago ? As you rightly say it's all disclosed whether it has any relevance to the job in question or not.

As far as I am aware no one in the club gets to see anyones record, the person who has been CRB'd gets a form through the post to say they have been checked.

It appears that that is not good enough now.......

in what sense?   We can't exactly CRB every member (over 100). We don't offer any formal training anyway, so that is not really an issue.

no one but me has ever had any info re MY CRB check, dont forget that this system however flawed is intended to give YOU protection too, against any false claims made against you, some thing you wont have without your crb check

  cj

no one but me has ever had any info re MY CRB check, dont forget that this system however flawed is intended to give YOU protection too, against any false claims made against you, some thing you wont have without your crb check

  cj

I don't see any protection for the individual only a statement of fact with the CRB and the ISA being a loaded gun pointing at you waiting for someone to pull the trigger.

J

I don't see any protection for the individual only a statement of fact with the CRB...

At  9mins 25 seconds into the program, Jeremy Vine states "... 3 years later John began working for a new company. He was asked for a clean CRB certificate, it was then he found all the (unfounded) allegations listed against his name... in black & white they looked terrible. He was sacked."

So the CRB isnt always factual?    [here's the link again... ]

Phil

At  9mins 25 seconds into the program, Jeremy Vine states "... 3 years later Johan began working for a new company. He was asked for a clean CRB certificate, it was then he found all the (unfounded) allegations listed against his name... in black & white they looked terrible. He was sacked."

So the CRB isnt always factual?    [here's the link again... ]

Phil

I'm not sure about this aspect of the program and I do wonder if they have got it wrong or not the full story. My understanding is that a CRB check is just that - a check with the Criminal Records Bureau. If you don't have a crimnal record they have nothing to report.

Here's what the CRB say:-

'A CRB check can provide access to a range of different types of information, such as, information held on the Police National Computer (PNC), including Convictions, Cautions, Reprimands and Warnings in England and Wales, and most of the relevant convictions in Scotland and Northern Ireland may also be included. (The CRB reserves the right to add new data sources).'

This suggests that IF the program is reporting correctly that it was a CRB report then it woul;d seem the gentleman in the report must have had a Convictions Caution, Reprimand or Warning. I stand by what I said a CRB will only help the individual if they have a clean record.

J

 

So a CRB check does not just include convictions, it never has. It always included the less formal Reprimand, Warning and Caution, all added to your record without any involvement by the courts e.g. when the nice policeman says "You don't want this going to the courts, just sign here and it's all done with". I suspect that many people who get a police caution like that don't even realise that it's going to stay on their record for ever and cause you to refer to them as "criminals" :(.

And now the ISA checks have been extended to include suspicions and allegations which didn't even get that far. I.e. there was no evidence, no charge, no admission, no caution just someone suggesting that X might have done something.

Like so many things this government has done the ambition is great but the execution is diabolical. I suspect the main problem now is that so many ordinary people will no longer have anything to do with anyone else's children. This leaves clubs/organisations etc desparate for volunteers and may also leave them prey to just those people who are really keen to get close to children and who can pass/fool an ISA check. I wonder who they might be ?

Steve

The ISA will give people the opportunity to make representations and "put their side of the story" before making a decision to bar someone.
Independent Safeguarding Authority
(see 6th bullet point)

There is an appeals process against an adverse decision by the ISA.
Onward appeals and appeals to the Upper Tribunal
(2nd paragraph)

In theory it sounds OK, but how all this works out in practice remains to be seen.

Dick

slowly and/or badly in my experience of all things government.

The ISA will give people the opportunity to make representations and "put their side of the story" before making a decision to bar someone.
Independent Safeguarding Authority
(see 6th bullet point)

There is an appeals process against an adverse decision by the ISA.
Onward appeals and appeals to the Upper Tribunal
(2nd paragraph)

In theory it sounds OK, but how all this works out in practice remains to be seen.

Dick

We have a half decent legal system, if there's sufficient evidence to have suspicion let the courts hear it not some bloody case worker taht presents evidence to another board of case workers to decide your fate. This will turn around and bite children on the backsides, it's complete and utter mess and should be disolved immediately.

J

Just goes to show, warped mind in teh ISA and you're stuffed, who vets the ISA anyway?

J

Just goes to show, warped mind in teh ISA and you're stuffed, who vets the ISA anyway?

J

exactly.

is it just me thats lost the plot with this country and the way things are and likes to kick out and dig their heals in and say enough is enough.
we have cameras watching us on the roads and fining us for every mistake they catch us for cameras watching our streets more than any country in the would we car nt have a decent labour strike without the goverment saying its against some anti terrorist law they dreamt up the day before to stop it. we get fined for the slightest thing like standing your car on your own drive and forgetting to tell the dvla the tax has expired.this and countless other ways to get money from you. everything the goverment does dos nt seem for anyones benefit but a way to make more cash from joe blogs. our politicians were milking us dry with expenses and still would be if they had nt been caught out what a shame they got caught . then we ve got the mitigation litigation culture and thats what in IMO these crb checss are about . its not about protecting little jimmy its an insurance company covering its ar5e.
if i was 15 years younger i would seriously consider getting out of here. my sister lives in canada and what a difference in culture and way of life shes found

is it just me thats lost the plot with this country and the way things are and likes to kick out and dig their heals in and say enough is enough.
we have cameras watching us on the roads and fining us for every mistake they catch us for cameras watching our streets more than any country in the would we car nt have a decent labour strike without the goverment saying its against some anti terrorist law they dreamt up the day before to stop it. we get fined for the slightest thing like standing your car on your own drive and forgetting to tell the dvla the tax has expired.this and countless other ways to get money from you. everything the goverment does dos nt seem for anyones benefit but a way to make more cash from joe blogs. our politicians were milking us dry with expenses and still would be if they had nt been caught out what a shame they got caught . then we ve got the mitigation litigation culture and thats what in IMO these crb checss are about . its not about protecting little jimmy its an insurance company covering its ar5e.
if i was 15 years younger i would seriously consider getting out of here. my sister lives in canada and what a difference in culture and way of life shes found

no, its not just you.

like i said before Fokker, laws are either for covering someone's ars3 or for getting money out of the tax payer.

or both like in this case. More people working for the govt. We're putting communism to shame!

cover the roof of big ben and the houses of parliament in gold and we could be in another place. only thing is the goverment could nt afford it but i m sure they would find a way to

is it just me thats lost the plot with this country and the way things are and likes to kick out and dig their heals in and say enough is enough.

Yes and if your not doing it made any difference to the goverment it might help.

By your own admission you'd do it for your job - just not for your hobby, How on earth is that going to make the goverment stop ?

The only people it will effect are you and your club. One will loose of great instructor which would be a very great shame.

Until the CIA come up with a way to quickly read your mind so we can see easily and cheaply who's the pedophile we only have this system, imperfect as it is.

Chris

Yes and if your not doing it made any difference to the goverment it might help.

By your own admission you'd do it for your job - just not for your hobby, How on earth is that going to make the goverment stop ?

The only people it will effect are you and your club. One will loose of great instructor which would be a very great shame.

Until the CIA come up with a way to quickly read your mind so we can see easily and cheaply who's the pedophile we only have this system, imperfect as it is.

Chris

While I do agree with your sentiments, Chris, (and yes, it is the only thing we have) I reckon the whole thing has gone way over the top, and would be amazed if it has thrown up ONE paedo. They are a bit cleverer than that.

is it just me thats lost the plot with this country and the way things are and likes to kick out and dig their heals in and say enough is enough.
we have cameras watching us on the roads and fining us for every mistake they catch us for cameras watching our streets more than any country in the would we car nt have a decent labour strike without the goverment saying its against some anti terrorist law they dreamt up the day before to stop it. we get fined for the slightest thing like standing your car on your own drive and forgetting to tell the dvla the tax has expired.this and countless other ways to get money from you. everything the goverment does dos nt seem for anyones benefit but a way to make more cash from joe blogs. our politicians were milking us dry with expenses and still would be if they had nt been caught out what a shame they got caught . then we ve got the mitigation litigation culture and thats what in IMO these crb checss are about . its not about protecting little jimmy its an insurance company covering its ar5e.
if i was 15 years younger i would seriously consider getting out of here. my sister lives in canada and what a difference in culture and way of life shes found

It is interesting that the English are perceived by "us continentals" as a fair minded, tolerant , traditionally orientated culture to be envied. It was only when I stopped living in England that I realised that slowly but surely the state was peering into your life more than you thought. I am in accord with the above and although it is difficult for my english relatives and friends to understand, the rest of Europe take a very sceptical view on  controls on personnal data such as bank accounts, surveying cameras etc on the excuse of anti - terrorist legislation.

It is interesting that the English are perceived by "us continentals" as a fair minded, tolerant , traditionally orientated culture to be envied. It was only when I stopped living in England that I realised that slowly but surely the state was peering into your life more than you thought. I am in accord with the above and although it is difficult for my english relatives and friends to understand, the rest of Europe take a very sceptical view on  controls on personnal data such as bank accounts, surveying cameras etc on the excuse of anti - terrorist legislation.

well said an interesting. I think generally we are fairminded and tolerant. The government just need to f**k off out of everything we do and things would be fine. 

what this government has done and continues to do is to ensure a they have a vast number of voters.

This is another quango , another group of people employed and paid for by the public purse who are unlikely to vote for a party that campaigns to cut public spending.

what this government has done and continues to do is to ensure a they have a vast number of voters.

This is another quango , another group of people employed and paid for by the public purse who are unlikely to vote for a party that campaigns to cut public spending.

you've hit the nail on the head sir.  
My thoughts exactly.  

UK Public Spending As Percent Of GDP for United Kingdom 1900-2010 - Central Government Local Authorities

I guess Grubber still has a way to go to beat the war years, but other than that he's heading in the "right" direction.     If you look at the figues only 1974-1976 and the second world war beats the current staggering figure of 46.40%!

Nothing to worry about though!

I have no problem with CRB, it shows your potential customers / employers that you have a clean record or that any previous misdemeanours may not affect what you do now (their choice). As I said before, in my club if your CRB showed you'd nicked a can of coke 10 years ago it wouldn't worry me, if on the other hand you were involved in drug dealing than thats a different matter
IMHO there are no 'good' reasons to refuse a CRB check.

J

For starters, I am not refusing to be CRB checked. I will not request it. Another thread mentioned being in girls changing room, yes I have, for legal purpose too and also in the female toilets. Does not change anything does it? I will NOT fill in any form to "prove" I am not a danger. Not my loss, just our Nations children having another one less of many experienced ADULTS assisting them.

For starters, I am not refusing to be CRB checked. I will not request it. Another thread mentioned being in girls changing room, yes I have, for legal purpose too and also in the female toilets. Does not change anything does it? I will NOT fill in any form to "prove" I am not a danger. Not my loss, just our Nations children having another one less of many experienced ADULTS assisting them.

I understand your protest but consider the outcome, for the sake of 10 minutes filling a form youngsters are going to lose out big time. If you really want to help youngsters (and I think you do) take 10 minutes out of a 30 minute session, fill out the form, job done. Protesting by not doing it will acheive nothing at all.

J

Im sorry, but if a bloke was to be around my 3 girls, be it in changing rooms or the toilets, i would want to know that they were safe, how would i know that the bloke in there with them, wasnt preying on them?? specially for my 8 yr old who is autistic and wide open to suggestion. I would want to know that the person in there with them, was checked and deemed safe.

Maz, I understand what you are saying, but I doubt these checks make any difference. I believe statistics show these animals, on average, commit 200 offences before they are caught. They are very clever at hiding their acts. Also, don't forget they are not all blokes.


   Tom

Maz, I understand what you are saying, but I doubt these checks make any difference. I believe statistics show these animals, on average, commit 200 offences before they are caught. They are very clever at hiding their acts. Also, don't forget they are not all blokes.


   Tom

I agree entirely, ISA is bad news, CRB does at least check for 'previous'.

J

I agree entirely, ISA is bad news, CRB does at least check for 'previous'.

J

I suppose from Maz's point of view, any check is better than none, but does that then give a false sense of security? A paedo who has never been caught (and there are loads of them) would welcome a CRB check! Gives them a legitimate reason to be around kids. Personally, I would view it as a car MOT- the car was deemed safe a month ago...
I agree with John that, until there is a better way, there is not much else we can do, and, intrusive as it is, we should have it done. (instructors, that is.) However, I do not blame anyone who refuses. The thought of going through with it, thinking you are a good, clean living person, and then finding out that someone in the past, made an unsubstatiated claim against you, totally untrue, but on your record, could be devastating to the point of suicide.

Maz, I understand what you are saying, but I doubt these checks make any difference. I believe statistics show these animals, on average, commit 200 offences before they are caught. They are very clever at hiding their acts. Also, don't forget they are not all blokes.


   Tom

Very true, the younger the child, the less likely to be able to explain/say anything.. then fear creeps in that no one will believe them if they did say anything anyway.

But my girls, id like to be kept as safe as possible.. my 8 yr old has no concept of stranger danger, and no concept or idea of what can happen to a child. she is a very vulnerable girl, and any check in my eyes,is better than none.

Very true, the younger the child, the less likely to be able to explain/say anything.. then fear creeps in that no one will believe them if they did say anything anyway.

But my girls, id like to be kept as safe as possible.. my 8 yr old has no concept of stranger danger, and no concept or idea of what can happen to a child. she is a very vulnerable girl, and any check in my eyes,is better than none.

All we have to do is hang a few of them, the rest would crawl back under the stones where they came from. Can I ask you Maz- if someone (a stranger to you) had had a check, would that then make you trust them? Legitimate question, just curious.

All we have to do is hang a few of them, the rest would crawl back under the stones where they came from. Can I ask you Maz- if someone (a stranger to you) had had a check, would that then make you trust them? Legitimate question, just curious.

I don't know Maz's answer but for me I would be more comfortable than someone without a clear CRB check.

J

I don't know Maz's answer but for me I would be more comfortable than someone without a clear CRB check.

J

Thats a bit worrying though John- surely it is an 'I have never been caught' check? Its a strange thing, trust, you usually trust someone from your family, but that is the commonest place for abuse. I think that 'trust no one' comes into play, especially with Maz's youngest.

Thats a bit worrying though John- surely it is an 'I have never been caught' check? Its a strange thing, trust, you usually trust someone from your family, but that is the commonest place for abuse. I think that 'trust no one' comes into play, especially with Maz's youngest.

I didn't say I would be happy, I said I would be more comfortable with someone that had a clear CRB check. I accept it doesn't mean theyre not a danger.

J

All we have to do is hang a few of them, the rest would crawl back under the stones where they came from. Can I ask you Maz- if someone (a stranger to you) had had a check, would that then make you trust them? Legitimate question, just curious.

I would trust them more than someone who hadnt been checked. I do that everyday, all those with kids do when we send our kids to school, when they go on school trips, when my kids go on trips organised by the young carers association, i dont know all these people, but i feel more comftable knowing they all have been checked and cleared.