Topic: panorama tonight

might be worth watching as its about crb checks which i gather have changed in relation to our hobby

Watched it and alarm bells are ringing as predicted.

J

I ve been told in the last week that i need one to carry on as an instructor. apparently its a condition set by the insurance. Chairman has spoken to manny and its what he says

Missed it.  Precis anybody? 

(I'm guessing the "transferability" provisions previously talked about [which would enable people with CRB clearance in other walks of life to be cleared in the hobby] have been spiked?)

Mike

I ve been told in the last week that i need one to carry on as an instructor. apparently its a condition set by the insurance. Chairman has spoken to manny and its what he says

surely only if you teach under 16s without a responsible adult there? Our club rules specify that all under 16s have to be supervised by a parent or guardian.

so do ours but apparently its changed or changing

so do ours but apparently its changed or changing

then thats pretty much the end of kids learning to fly.....

then thats pretty much the end of kids learning to fly.....

Unless you make the youngsters instructors

[BBC Iplayer link]

Thanks Phil 

Just watched it through and my understanding is that if you are teaching a kid/va to fly and your lessons are more than a week apart, you dont need to register.

If a club ruled that instructors teaching kids/va should alternate week on, week off with another instructor, none would need to register, ie no-one instructs a kid/va more than once in 8 days.

I don't know, just postulating, isn't that feasible for 99% of "teaching a kid" cases?   

Phil

Unless you make the youngsters instructors

Not so leccy, an example was given in the program of a 6th former who had a part time job as a lab tech in the school where he was studying, he had to be CRB'd and will have to jump through the new hoops too by 1st November.

J

on a personal note i have declined to be cleared. not because i have anything to hide but i think its total madness and utter 80110cks that i refuse to take part in. the club can get the AI removed from my insurance and i will carry on teaching adults only. i wonder how many more instructors will say the same.

on a personal note i have declined to be cleared. not because i have anything to hide but i think its total madness and utter 80110cks that i refuse to take part in. the club can get the AI removed from my insurance and i will carry on teaching adults only. i wonder how many more instructors will say the same.

Just be careful, I don't wish to be the profit of doom here but the legislation also covers vulnerable adults. The definition of a vulnerable adult is vague to say the least and if your club excludes them then theyre in breach of discrimination.

So much for playing with toy aeroplanes in the middle of a field, the world UK has gone mad.

J

Firstly, I undertake as a Volunteer Instructor a twice weekly RC and engineering Club within a School, have done for three years now, being CRB checked before and of course since this scheme was positioned. I have also helped the school with entires in the Shell Eco Challenge Schools Class, and am currently leading 4 teams doing the British Schools Karting Championship, the next stage of which is this Wednesday, and will take up 8 hours of my day.

I'm not a particular advocate of the scheme as like all huge schemes, it'll have it's anomolies and issues, and it has to be said will always be targetted and rideculed by some just because it exists.

Personally though I'm pretty appalled that people are already withdrawing from the root "product", which is helping the next generation get a good start in life and experience a wide range of interesting, skill enhancing activities.  

Who suffers here?

If you think a possibly misguided and probably flawed but neverthless extant scheme is going to stop me from helping kids enjoy life and at the same time develop their skills, you don't know me very well!

on a personal note i have declined to be cleared. not because i have anything to hide but i think its total madness and utter 80110cks that i refuse to take part in. the club can get the AI removed from my insurance and i will carry on teaching adults only. i wonder how many more instructors will say the same.

I have always been of the same opinion, fokker- I have always said that I dont teach kids unless they have a parent there, and the club has made rules to suit that- kids have free membership, but a parent must be a member. However, I dont think we can beat the system, and I have to decide whether to hang up my buddy lead or take the CRB. Its the kids who suffer, and I cant keep moaning about young thugs and vandals if I dont do my bit to keep 'em off the streets. I will be dragged, kicking and screaming, into a system I, also, think is total b0ll0cks. On the vulnerable adult thing, what sort of vulnerable adult would you like to see controlling a 70mph missile? If someone is not mentally capabable of driving a car then they have no business flying a model. When are we going to get a bit of simple common sense back into this once great country?

On the vulnerable adult thing, what sort of vulnerable adult would you like to see controlling a 70mph missile? If someone is not mentally capabable of driving a car then they have no business flying a model. When are we going to get a bit of simple common sense back into this once great country?

Bob you need to be so careful with comments like this, you can be from the outside a normal human being but still fall into the vulnerable adult class.

J

Bob you need to be so careful with comments like this, you can be from the outside a normal human being but still fall into the vulnerable adult class.

J

so just what are we talking about here? Is there a definition, or do we have another 'catch all' rule?

Vulnerable Adults:
Who is a Vulnerable Adult

lol - "Harm" is a form of abuse.  Nice and clear that then! 

Persoanlly - I dont see what the fuss is about.

Yes its a bit much.

But its only a form - Stopping instructing becuase of its a bit much too.

Chris

Persoanlly - I dont see what the fuss is about.

Yes its a bit much.

But its only a form - Stopping instructing becuase of its a bit much too.

Chris

I absolutely agree, a few in our club refused CRB's on principal..... makes one think!

J

I absolutely agree, a few in our club refused CRB's on principal..... makes one think!

J

are you sure? that attitude alarms me as it's exactly the kind of bogey man on every street corner, dail mail, ester ransen thinking that the system was born out of..............  

I'm not trying to be narky about it, but I think you do have to be rational about these things.  You have to consider it in the wider context, that people get fed up of the government (interference) and sometimes there is a straw that breaks the camels back or people just get to the point where they can't be bothered any more.

Or maybe they just think the scheme is cr@p and don't want to get involved.......?

I'm sure a lot of people out there have minor convictions or warnings for misdemeanours (maybe committed in their youth etc).  Doesn't mean they are dangerous. (I don't have any btw!). I'm sure you could say this won't make any difference to CRB, but seeing as the govt seem unable to run a bath never mind a major computer system, people don't want it do they.  

I'm not donning my tin foil hat, but ones doesn't get sick of it all.  You can't drive down the road, open a bank account, buy some paracetemol etc etc without the hand of the govt. down your back nowadays.  

To help me please.... and to get through the heat and emotions

Why would you not register yourself through the CRB?  

To help me please.... and to get through the heat and emotions

Why would you not register yourself through the CRB?  

I mean, there is a requirement to have a passed the "b" in my club to be able to instruct, could you say the same there, "I am not instructing because I am not bothered to go through the B test" ?

I mean, there is a requirement to have a passed the "b" in my club to be able to instruct, could you say the same there, "I am not instructing because I am not bothered to go through the B test" ?

i'm sure some people would take that stance.  It doesn't make me emotional, i'm just saying there are usually reasons behind what people do and you have to also consider the wider context outside of modelling (or insert activity).

I absolutely agree, a few in our club refused CRB's on principal..... makes one think!

Somehow I suspect it isn't making "one" think "It's good that at least some of us have principles". Instead it's probably the sort of snide thinking that makes it very clear why this is a bad idea. Particularly since this new scheme can get someone barred if there have simply been "suspicions" noted about them. It's certainly not necessary to have been convicted of anything.

I rather preferred the old-fashioned idea of being "innocent until proved guilty" not this new scheme of "innocent until we've heard a suspicion you might be guilty of something".

Considering the rate at which teachers, social workers etc. get falsely accused of all sorts of things I can easily see why they're not too happy about it. But they can't avoid it, we can and I'm pretty sure many people will.

Steve

We've just had to have ours renewed at work ( IT ) although we are NEVER in charge or left alone with children we do wander around schools and therefore might come into solitary contact with a child.

Took about 10 mins to fill the form in - in fact it took longer to find my birth certificate to send it off than to fill in the form.

I'm aware though it does stirr up emotions, people feel as though there privacy is being invaded. Of course as a parent of two young flyers i'm also quite glad that this is happening.

Last year in another hobby - some members we glad of this sort of protection.

Chris

so is it simply (not wishing to understate the importance) just a case of not wishing to be seen to have a suspicion against me?

I am not aware of any and would like to know if there were though....

the programme doesnt cover everything in the new legislation.

Im sure the mods were sick of me harping on about this legislation months and months ago before it hit the news.  

If you are percieved to incite a child to harm another, you will be put on the barred list. Bit like your kid coming home, saying little johnny hit me.. you tell your kid, well if he does it again, hit him back!! there you go.. youve just incited your child to harm another and if it got out.. wham.. your on the barred list.

This legislation wont stop abuse in the home.

I personally have no problem being vetted, but this legislation, may end up doing more harm than good.

but this legislation, may end up doing more harm than good.

I suspect you may be right, but why Maz...

What are the disadvantages.. Is it fear of the unknown?

a lot of adults are scared of children now. doesn't seem right to me.

I suspect you may be right, but why Maz...

What are the disadvantages.. Is it fear of the unknown?

it may be fear of the unknown.... but with the new legislation.. say for instance you really really annoyed me, i could report you as acting suspiciously with a kid, and then you would be investigated.

I personally have no problem being vetted, but this legislation, may end up doing more harm than good.

the only good it is doing is seeing to be doing some thing it will not stop any child abuse
Ron

the only good it is doing is seeing to be doing some thing it will not stop any child abuse
Ron

I have an 11 year old daughter and I do worry about her. This legislation does not reduce that worry one tiny bit. I believe the vast majority of abusers are not known, so being checked does very little, if anything, to reduce the risk. I believe the biggest risk, to her well-being, comes from her peers anyhow.(drugs, drink and smoking etc.)
I have no problems with being checked. I also have no problem with a National database of DNA/ fingerprints, which might be more helpful in catching lawbreakers, as my only act of lawbreaking consists of sometimes going a little fast in my car.
Unfortunately this legislation will deny kids access to many activities, as clubs, not just model-flying ones, are refusing to deal with them, or will only if a parent is present. This will increase the problem of them being vulnerable to their peers.

  Tom


 

What are the disadvantages.. Is it fear of the unknown?

Well, for example, at a wedding reception I went to the toilet, a little lad around 4 years old was quite distressed, he could undo the buttons on his trousers and asked for help, he was desperate to go for a pee. So there I am, I work in a scholl and have enhanced CRB check do I help him? or do I get his dad? I was about to go and get his dad when another lad walked in, I felt a little easier at helping then.

Sometimes when I'm at school I stay on after school to do some photoshop work, a couple of girls asked if they could come and watch and learn, I said sorry, no. I feel unsafe in an IT suite with 2 teenage girls purely because of child protection and the ability to have it used against me. If I could have CCTV in the room where I work I would, for my own protection.

The new legislation only requires a rumour or accusation to put you out of work, life changing stuff on someones accusation.

Children very much at arms length until I retire and then  I will relax my guard a little.

J

I have an 11 year old daughter and I do worry about her. This legislation does not reduce that worry one tiny bit. I believe the vast majority of abusers are not known, so being checked does very little, if anything, to reduce the risk. I believe the biggest risk, to her well-being, comes from her peers anyhow.(drugs, drink and smoking etc.)
I have no problems with being checked. I also have no problem with a National database of DNA/ fingerprints, which might be more helpful in catching lawbreakers, as my only act of lawbreaking consists of sometimes going a little fast in my car.
Unfortunately this legislation will deny kids access to many activities, as clubs, not just model-flying ones, are refusing to deal with them, or will only if a parent is present. This will increase the problem of them being vulnerable to their peers.

  Tom


 

IMHO one of the biggest threats are the social networking sites like facebook which has been used on more than one occasion for grooming IIRC.

J

Ok, so, Just say for instance that 40 or 50 yrs ago, In the 1950's & 1960's, you ran with a wild gang of kids, who did stupid stuff like stealing cars, & spotlights & stuff from cars, & some 'mindless', vandalism. Classed in those days as, i think, 'Petty larceny', you were convicted, fined, & served, a year on probation, but have never done anything since, coz you learned your lesson.

NO IT'S NOT ME ! But i do know a guy who would love to start teaching kids to fly models, ( I gave up teaching flying, to anyone, about 5 yrs ago ). My mate is worried that his "murky" past might just come back to haunt him.

Would the legislation as it is, go against him ? Or Is there some sort of "Statute of Limitations" in there, or is it going to be held against him forever ?
Cheers.
Ray

IMHO one of the biggest threats are the social networking sites like facebook which has been used on more than one occasion for grooming IIRC.

J

At least I can monitor them, as long as she is only accessing them at home.

  Tom

Well, for example, at a wedding reception I went to the toilet, a little lad around 4 years old was quite distressed, he could undo the buttons on his trousers and asked for help, he was desperate to go for a pee. So there I am, I work in a scholl and have enhanced CRB check do I help him? or do I get his dad? I was about to go and get his dad when another lad walked in, I felt a little easier at helping then.

Sometimes when I'm at school I stay on after school to do some photoshop work, a couple of girls asked if they could come and watch and learn, I said sorry, no. I feel unsafe in an IT suite with 2 teenage girls purely because of child protection and the ability to have it used against me. If I could have CCTV in the room where I work I would, for my own protection.

The new legislation only requires a rumour or accusation to put you out of work, life changing stuff on someones accusation.

Children very much at arms length until I retire and then  I will relax my guard a little.

J

I know how you feel. A toddler falls over in the street and I am frightened to pick it up, or a lone youngster is crying in a supermarket and you have to go and find an a shop assistant to come with you to find out what is wrong(usually because they have been separated from their parent).


   Tom

At least I can monitor them, as long as she is only accessing them at home.

  Tom

So she doesn't visit friends houses? her school has a good filtering system? the youth club ditto? Doesn't have a mobile phone with text/internet?

There are more ways than you might think!

J