Author Topic: Under 50's need not apply... reviving 1960s radio control ! (Read 29184 times)

Phil_G · « **Reply #120 on:** March 06, 2011, 13:43:09 PM »

Quote from: Pup Cam on March 06, 2011, 12:56:56 PM

Boldness doesn't start until Shaun's post #100 for me as well. It's not my fault guv', honest (AFAIK )

It was my fault, duff sig, sorted now

strange it didnt affect all my posts tho...

Quote from: Pup Cam on March 06, 2011, 12:56:56 PM

Really must re-commission the old CG Skylane from the 60's using Phils modules.

Do it! ya know ya wanna...

Phil

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #121 on:** March 06, 2011, 18:51:22 PM »

Quote

It was my fault, duff sig, sorted now strange it didnt affect all my posts tho...

Phil, It looks better leave it emboldened

and everybody stop worrying about fat or thin font

..

This is a single channel thread

not a discussion on the benefits of a stylised Helvetica

Oh, and I think I caused it with all those question marks before the Tadpole script.... But I can live with the guilt.....

Cheers,

Shaun

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #122 on:** March 15, 2011, 00:18:47 AM »

Has anybody in oldie-radioland got the circuit diagram / instructions that came with the amplifier kits for Bonnermite etc Reed actuators to effectively make them Transamites..

Both types of amp diagrams are needed, self neutralising and progressive .

I need to repair some of the mobile museums duffers to complete our reed sets.

I have an incling that it may have been published in an early RCME as well.

Even better would be some working Actuators as we are running out of bits at a rate of knots.

Cheers,

Shaun

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #123 on:** March 15, 2011, 15:07:31 PM »

Thats the trouble with posting when you should be sleeping.. I meant to say Bonner Duramite not Bonnermite ooops

Shaun

Alan H · « **Reply #124 on:** March 15, 2011, 18:27:45 PM »

Shaun, there was a complete service reference for Bonner Transmites published in RCM back in the 60's. Covers mechanical and circuit issues. If interested PM me your email address and I will email you scans.
Alan

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #125 on:** March 15, 2011, 19:29:02 PM »

Hi Alan,

Thanks for taking the time to reply..
If you could let me know what dates the articles are in the mags I have a mate who has a few from the 60's and it would save your time scanning them if he had them.

Cheers,

Shaun

Alan H · « **Reply #126 on:** March 16, 2011, 02:25:27 AM »

Hi Shaun, It was "The Transmite servo a complete service reference" from RCM. I only have scans as I don't currently have the original magazine in my possesion. The article is undated but would be mid 1960's
Alan

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #127 on:** March 16, 2011, 10:12:50 AM »

Hi Alan,
A fellow forumite has kindly sent me the scans for the article, but many thanks for the offer .

Regards,

Shaun

Phil_G · « **Reply #128 on:** March 18, 2011, 02:50:57 AM »

Finally got a day off (well, it was my Brithday!) my 2 lads took me for a slap-up breakfast at Squires bikers cafe, then later I took the resurrected Junior 60 down to the park. This model is fitted with my 2.4ghz Reeds Emulation radio but only on rudder, elevator & throttle. So it was a 'first time' in several ways but the J60 behaved very well given the wind today and the radio was perfect. Its 40-odd years since I flew reeds and I'm normally a mode-2 flyer but other than a couple of moments when my fingers got lost, mostly when I needed throttle, all was good. Glad it was a sedate model for the first trial! Probably as well no-one else was there to take the mick either... but at least I'm getting the hang of one-man videos!
Here we go:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38vrO1fxlJQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38vrO1fxlJQ</a>
Cheers
Phil

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #129 on:** March 18, 2011, 19:02:55 PM »

Phil,

We just need to fly 2.4g Galloping Ghost and we have successfully turned the clock back on 40 years of development.. Brilliant isn't it..

Cheers,

Shaun

GeeW · « **Reply #130 on:** March 19, 2011, 00:16:24 AM »

Love the closing shot which suggests going chasing the Sharkface....just like the old days then?
Look forwards to seeing the galloping ghost vid when the time comes.

Gordon

Phil_G · « **Reply #131 on:** March 19, 2011, 00:30:06 AM »

Yeah the new Sharkface wasnt a success that day - way too much rudder, too fast for me, thumb too slow - walk of shame and a bent motor shaft, otherwise ok. Thought I'd leave the shot in, just to balance the ups & downs of the day

Well pleased with the reed set though, flew it all afternoon.

Not decided on the best way of doing GG yet. Presently thinking of using 2 servos, each doing half of the emulation, with the overall combined effect exactly as it used to be. For me it has to be an accurate emulation or its not worth doing! Either way, it will be a while...
Cheers
Phil

Phil_G · « **Reply #132 on:** March 31, 2011, 17:05:25 PM »

The original is built on veroboard but I drew up a prototype PCB for the reeds encoder the other night, made a couple, posted one to Shaun, he just rang, he's absolutely buzzing cos he's built it up into his old RCS Comp 10 and its all working, hes promised photos later.

It seems to be generating a bit of interest... 6 definite requests so far... nutters, every one of em

Phil

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #133 on:** April 01, 2011, 17:18:30 PM »

Here you go mate..

The first DSM2 2.4g Reed set ever in the whole wide world

Ohh... that's other than yours ! Ah.. but then yours isn't DSM2 is it ?

Restoring the front label was a labour of love.. took 3 hrs with Photoshop.. Yeah, maybe I do need therapy.. Ken Sheppard was right

Works a treat thanks to my mate the wizard of the PIC, and all things electroniciffary and RF-ory.
And yes I'm going to be the first person in the world to fly REED EDF with my multiplex Twister as soon as this orrible weather stops.Maybe this weekend...

Cheers,

Shaun

Under 50's need not apply... reviving 1960s radio control !

Phil_G · « **Reply #134 on:** April 01, 2011, 17:37:45 PM »

No mines a Frsky module & rx... it needs a panel label - how about "Freedsky" ?
Thats a really neat conversion, puts mine to shame

I think I'll convert the old Orbit 10 after all.
Cheers me dears
Phil

PS Reeds emulation encoder spec to date, for anyone interested:

The encoder has a nice PCB with headers for the battery, switch, 2.4g module and one header per toggle switch. It can be built with up to 12 channels although this doesnt equate exactly since on a period reedset, trims were on separate channels driving a separate trim servo. It pretty much emulates the old reed sets as near as dammit, with simultaneous servo-slow on all channels to match the speed of the old bonner duramites. It also has a range-check 'sweep' mode, servo reversing throughout, trims & reversing saved to flash, etc. Its all written in pic assembler.
I used the up/down toggle switches intended for car electric windows. They're a bit 'clicky' but work fine and the toggles are the same physical size as the old Orbits etc. The case is a die-cast aluminium project box from Maplin.
Theres some detail on www.singlechannel.co.uk but there is much more to add as time permits.
Cheers
Phil

Patmac · « **Reply #135 on:** April 01, 2011, 17:52:37 PM »

Quote from: Phil_G on April 01, 2011, 17:37:45 PM

No mines a Frsky module & rx... it needs a panel label - how about "Freedsky" ?

If you converted a Black Prince you could call it "FrEDsky"

GeeW · « **Reply #136 on:** April 01, 2011, 19:10:08 PM »

Reeds, he's ABSOLUTELY BARKING I'd say.......

Phil_G · « **Reply #137 on:** April 07, 2011, 03:28:22 AM »

Right, finally got around to doing a PCB for the reeds emulation set, gave it to Shaun who used it in his RCS pictured above. I thought I could make it more compact, so did another, smaller one.
The one on the pic is the new one but has a couple of drill-skips, pretend they're not there please

Click the photos to embiggen them.

Heres a couple of made-up boards, its all connectors with each toggle on a 3-wire servo-lead, plus one for the module with power & ppm, one for the on/off switch and one for the battery. Theres a buddy output header too. I'm using a Frsky DIY but the pcb has the schottky so suits almost any module except native JR (Futaba-fit Spektrum modules are ok).

Functionally its exactly the same as the veroboard one I've been flying for a while now, the firmware is perfectly usable as it is but I'll be doing some more development for a little while, just niceties.

One of these boards is going into my Orbit 10 tomorrow, pics to follow.
Cheers
Phil
Jeez, just noticed, its 3:27am. Bed time!

Brian Cooper · « **Reply #138 on:** April 07, 2011, 10:47:33 AM »

Blimey.... that RCS 10 channel reed outfit takes me right back to my childhood in the 1960s.
One of these radios was my first multi channel outfit --- when I was 12.

It was a great radio and never missed a beat.

I remember testing the ground range, courtesy of a pair of walkie talkies to keep in contact with the guys who were watching my model, and it was still working when I got to the boundaries of our field --- which was 1 mile away.

B.C.

quorneng · « **Reply #139 on:** April 23, 2011, 01:24:35 AM »

Given this topic is sponsored by MacGregor it seems only fitting to show my TerryTone outfit.
Kit built with a home made TX case.

Note the huge space required for the HT and LT batteries.

At least the RX had 5 of the new transistor things so only needed a 3V supply.

No crystals so heaven knows what frequency. You just tuned the 'pots' until you had maximum range.
I suppose it might still work.

Phil_G · « **Reply #140 on:** May 19, 2011, 00:07:41 AM »

My Dad built a similar non-crystal controlled transmitter from a Practical Wireless article. Tuning to frequency was with beehive trimmers like yours. This enabled us to tune it 'elsewhere' and fly two superregens at once

Meanwhile, here's Dougs mini-Sharkface (80%) all ready to go on 2.4g Single Channel:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYKry2lnLL8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYKry2lnLL8</a>

Cheers
Phil

no1dieselman · « **Reply #141 on:** May 19, 2011, 10:27:26 AM »

Thanks for posting that Phil.

My reeds set was completed and fully functional - however the switches I used started failing after a few minutes use, so it is on hold until better switches are sourced - pics and vids will be done when completed.

Anyway, my mini Sharkface will be the flying testbed for the reeds project, should be easier with only two channels to worry about. (i have never flown reeds before)

Doug

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #142 on:** May 19, 2011, 11:48:08 AM »

Knocked up a couple of new test rigs for the Museum..

First one is the IVY Mk 2 Hybrid Valve and Transistor ( actually it was the Ivistor circuit, sold to replace a relay) Carrier Wave set.. Works a treat now I've found a source for 22.5v batteries... It was inconsistant with 2 PP3's in series. The other batteries are 1 x 1.5v dry cell for the valve heater and 3 x 1.2v niCads for the escapement.

If you look at the rudder you can see it's a full depth one. Phil Smith of Veron fame, devised this linkage method for the Mini Concord, Impala etc so a more elegant fin shape and full depth rudder could be used instead of the normal cut off rudder design that almost was universally used on escapement linkages.
The other is the one I always wanted as a kid but was way out of my price range. Sold by Ripmax, the R MK cascaded system gave the following..

1 x Press Right
2 x Presses Left
3 x Presses UP
4 x Presses Down
5 x Presses cycled the 3 position motor actuator.
The motor function is a bit tricky to switch reliably as firstly you needed to key it accurately, then hold it for the correct amount of time to move to the next state ( high , med. low , med etc.)
Batteries on this one are 2 x 1.2v Nicad's centre tapped for the Rudder and the same for Ele, a 1.2v NiCad for the motor and a 9V PP3 for the Rx.

This is the reverse of the Bonner Cascaded Escapement system that gave similar functions but you used a quick blip for the throttle ( this was standard practice with just about all other single channel systems) and the 5th position could be used for switching a further esc / actuator for flaps or retracting undercarriage.

Shaun

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #143 on:** May 19, 2011, 14:16:52 PM »

Hi Doug..

try these switches.. they are pretty robust but a firmer action the original Bulgin style Reed set ones..

http://cpc.farnell.com/arcolectric-switches/c1770oo/switch-dpdt-ctr-off/dp/SW02806

http://cpc.farnell.com/_/js-510glc/toggle-switch-spdt-on-off-on/dp/SW03351
I certain these are the centre bias off ones.. you would need to check.

Cheers,

Shaun

no1dieselman · « **Reply #144 on:** May 19, 2011, 15:01:10 PM »

Shaun,

Thanks for the info - it is always difficult buying these things mail order. I have quite a selection of useless momentary pushbuttons that I bought for the single channel projects, but finally found a reliable one with click action that I was after.

I found a load of junk, sorry intertesting vintage radio control bits and bobs that might be of interest to you - I'll bring them over to a club night soon, I need to see Phil to get rev. I on my single channel chips..

Doug

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #145 on:** May 19, 2011, 16:02:34 PM »

Hi Doug,

I have a one or two of the Toggles left ( the ones with the retro red On labels on) you can have them to try out if you like..

Bring on the junk...... I managed to bring the RMK Rudder actuator back to life with bits from my junk box....

regards,

Shaun

no1dieselman · « **Reply #146 on:** May 20, 2011, 14:51:46 PM »

Hi Shaun,

I will take you up on your offer of the toggle switches, thanks. Should be at the June club night getting the latest rev in my PICs.
I found one or two of the large RMK servos last week - I'll bring them over. Are you still after some of the 5 and seven pin MacGregor connectors? I have some somewhere.

Doug

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #147 on:** May 20, 2011, 16:54:37 PM »

HI Doug,
We have some more switches for you. I gave Phil some 5 or 6 and he's not using them so we should be able to give you enough to sort out your reed Tx..

Re the MacGregor Plugs.. I'm always after them. I've standardised on them for the test rigs so I can easily swop and change Rx's and also it makes it easier to test new arrivals.

The RMK bits would be greatly appreciated as 40 year old plastic tends to be fragile and Anything that can help keep the demo sets working would be great.

Cheers,

Shaun

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #148 on:** May 25, 2011, 16:12:47 PM »

Last test rig for a bit.. I need to get on with some serious balsa bashing now..All 110" of it

This demo rig shows a total home built approach to Galloping Ghost.

The Rx is the RCM&E Supertone.... Superhet ,kit built with the additional transistor switcher to replace a relay. Big isn't it but the construction was fairly involved , loads of components been a superhet Rx, so the designer made the PCB bigger to help less experienced constructors.

The Actuator is the almost universally adopted Mighty Midget motor. Here in its simplest version driving a torque rod that caused the rudder and ele to deflect.. The Wirework at the back was known as the Bird Cage. The rubber band on the motor gear was to assist in centering. Crude but effective.

The small circuit board at the front with the big Red LED was known as a POD.. pulse omission detector. It was a way of providing a quick blip to a secondary actuator to provide high / low throttle. The actuator would have been wired in place of the LED.... I'm running out of Fred Rising clockwork ones now.

Dave Boddo was a big fan of GG as was Pete Holland, who wrote a superb book on the subject called Low Cost Proportional. It is full of info, circuits to build etc. That's where I got the design for the POD from.

So there you go .. Fairly Proportional Rudder , Ele and sequential throttle all from a single channel Tx with a pulser added on.

Oh.. the 2 rubber bands at the bottom of the silver post near the motor are just spares

Phil_G · « **Reply #149 on:** May 27, 2011, 01:26:26 AM »

Quote from: no1dieselman on May 19, 2011, 15:01:10 PM

I need to see Phil to get rev. I on my single channel chips..

'I' ? 'I' ? 'I' is Sooooo 'last year' ...

I've just done a minor change, this will be revision 'J' and I'll bring a few to the club.
The change only affects Sequential mode, and its a further safety enhancement.
Version 'I' replaced the motor-run timer automatic startup with a manually triggered motor start in sequential mode, which is 'primed' once you've set a run timer.
There was however no indication that the motor was primed ready for a run until you'd actually triggered the startup sequence.
Version 'J' trills whilst the motor is primed, and as per the previous version, holding the button for 5 secs triggers the rapid pipping as a countdown to motor startup. Throughout the 'primed' time, the countdown & the ramp up to full power, rudder operation works normally for a last pre-flight check - in other words everything happens concurrently as always (its a busy little pic!).
I know I've said this before, but I really think 'J' will be the final version

I cant think of anything more to add without losing the realism of the S/C escapement emulation.
This quicky video helps explain:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caz2TgYK7ZE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caz2TgYK7ZE</a>
Cheers
Phil

no1dieselman · « **Reply #150 on:** May 28, 2011, 15:49:10 PM »

Soo last year eh?

Gives me an idea, keep my old obsolete PIC, and start a new web site, The Vintage 2.4 gig single channel users. This will really show up you users of new fangled modern gear!

Doug

GeeW · « **Reply #151 on:** May 28, 2011, 21:47:19 PM »

Excellent no1dieselman.

I don't want any of that new fangled 2.4gig reedy nonsense thank you very much!
Give me a good old bang-bang with none of your buzzers and bleeps every time!!

p.s. Still waiting for a suitable day to maiden my 2.4 S/C glider on the slope...didn't fancy it last Weds with 25kts of wind for some reason......

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #152 on:** June 19, 2011, 11:35:09 AM »

******HELP PLEASE ********

Hi. I urgently need some of the following valves and bits to repair some of the exhibits in Phil's and My museum collection.

DCC 90 ( 3A5 )
DK 91
DK 92
DL 92
DL94 ( 3V4 )
DL 96
HiVAC XFY 34
HIVAC XFG 1

OC 71 & OC 72 Transistors

3 to 5K ohm relays (preferably siemens high speed type but anything will do)

Any old but good Hunts capacitors various values

Cheers

Shaun

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #153 on:** July 14, 2011, 18:08:36 PM »

Hi, I had a couple of hours so I decided to build another transmitter..... Latest technology... not quite...CE approved....... ha ha ha.
It featured in April 1963 RCM&E, it was a little different in being a pulsed carrier wave Tx, but not flown on a pot, that was used for trim. The 2 buttons gave full or no signal.

3 batteries, 9V for the transistor pulser,90v & 1.5V for the Valve Transmitter.

90 volt supply from my now standard ,valve battery pack, of 10 9V PP3's in series

It can also be used as a single channel carrier wave Tx using the push to make button and the pulser turned off.

Built it,guessed the settings for the tuning cap, fired it up and it was transmitting on approx 27meg Red freq... I must say , I was a little surprised as I was sure it would need some fettling to get it working and I also didn't know how good the valve was as it was an ex equipment pull.

The case was a cheapo Maplin Ali box, modded and painted with some grotty old Hammerite I had laying around.

The coil looks distorted in the PCB close up picture but it is dead true....... an optical confusion ! Wierd...

Starting the Aeromodeller Carrier Tx & Hybrid Rx next as featured in Simple Radio Control By Hundleby & Ives

Found a great company that still has stocks of old Valves, transistors, Caps etc, so it helps with some of the more obscure bits......

Shaun

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #154 on:** July 14, 2011, 18:26:05 PM »

Also knocked this gizmo up.... Useful to see if any new aquisitions for the museum are working quickly. It's a Wavemeter. Basically used back in the day to tune your Tx to something like 27mHz. As can be seen from the inner pic, virtually no components, 2 caps ( one variable), 1 diode, a coil and a meter and bobs your test gear.

It was a project in Radio Controlled Models, a book by F J Camm from the late 50's

You would set it up by tuning it to a known accurate Tx and then leave it for future use. It can also give you an indication of the power output by how far the meter needle deflects but you have to have the aerials ( Tx & Wavemeter) in exactly the same place everytime otherwise the results can vary wildly. Yet another Maplin Ali Box.. The paint used was supposed to be crackle finish... It didn't crackle very well. I think probably a few light coats may give a better result...

Shaun

GeeW · « **Reply #155 on:** July 14, 2011, 18:54:51 PM »

Excellent stuff Shaun. Real electronics with hand warming valves to keep the digits warm in the winter!

All from the days when 'micro-electronics' meant you could actually lift it on your own!

Gordon

Phil_G · « **Reply #156 on:** July 17, 2011, 01:11:00 AM »

Revision "P" has all the previous features¹ plus a choice of 4 speeds for the inbuilt, simultaneous servo-slow, you can vary it from very slow to just a tad too fast.

The transit speed in the existing revision (rev N) (which was matched to the old Bonner Duramites) equates to speed "2" on this one, "1" is a bit slower, "3" is a bit faster, "4" a bit faster still. In other words if you set this version to speed "2" it feels the same as version "N" which has been tested & flown extensively for several months now.

The transit speed is controlled by a pot but although it only selects one of 4 speed settings, the change does seem very linear. You can see the effect best in 'range test' mode where the servos sweep end-to-end automatically - vary the pot and you can see them speed up & slow down. And the best bit is the existing PCB is so easy to update - just a 3-pin header to add, then plug a 10k pot into it. Looks really neat.
I'll do some pics & a video soon.

Cheers
Phil

PS Doug, when you come over, bring your reeds pcb & I'll do the changes.

¹ The encoder is built on a small PCB with headers for the battery, switch, 2.4g module and one header per toggle switch. It can be built with up to 12 channels although this doesnt equate exactly since on a period reedset, you only had elevator trim and that needed two separate channels driving a separate trim servo!
It has progressive throttle and auxiliary channels, proper simultaneous servo-slow on all functions to match the speed of the old bonner Duramite reed servos, individual servo reversing throughout, trim on all channels as well as the standard 'reeds' elevator trim, (cheating, but why not?), and trims & reversing are saved to flash. It has a second aileron output (to avoid a Y lead), is fully simultaneous (of course it should be limited to bi-simul, but again... why not?). It also has a range-test 'sweep' mode for single-handed range checks. It incorporates the schottky PPM isolator for Futaba & DIY modules and has a trainer/buddy/sim output.
Its written entirely in assembler and it pretty accurately emulates the old reed sets of the 1960s.

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #157 on:** July 19, 2011, 17:35:48 PM »

This is getting bad.. I seem to have contracted oldgear constructoritus

Here is the Aeromodeller RX, I built last night...It didn't work straight off.. needed a mod as detailed in the instructions, but then... it still didn't work properly.

Then I remembered that the relay, (been new old stock, an ED Beep relay) needed adjusting . It's now clicking away like a good one.. Massive range.

Interesting not using a PCB, just old school point to point wiring. You need to plan ahead so you don't, obscure tags you need later on in the construction. Thanks to a mate, he found a packet of tags for me deep in the depths of his shed from when he was a lad, it is just brimming with authenticity.

Aeromodeller TX is next.... Its very similar to the ABC one, less the pulser, but designed as a ground based unit, able to hold bigger batteries..

pchristy · « **Reply #158 on:** July 20, 2011, 20:33:39 PM »

I love it!

But tell me Shaun, where did you get the PPM used in your wavemeter?

--
Pete

2.4G Shaun · « **Reply #159 on:** July 20, 2011, 21:39:12 PM »

Hi Pete,

not that I'm the selfish type, but I'll PM you my secret supplier. they are running out of bits quickly i.e. .. B7G valve base and screening cans.. only 2 left now..

I've found a veritable cornucopia of new old stock to rebuild the flakey tech of years gone bye....

Actually I was pretty stunned with the output of the ABC c/w transmitter I recently made.. It nearly bent the needle around the stop on the wave meter when I pressed the go button.

I'm currently trying to find a 4 hole valve socket for a Hi-Vac XP1.5 hearing aid valve to build a FS Meter from a 50's design.

The build list is growing exponentially at the moment.

* Phils Orbit 2.4g reed conversion
* Aeromodeller Tx (ground base)
* Galloping Ghost TX ( low cost propo book)
* Dual GG Decoder ( Low cost propo book)
* Rameco Mini c/w Tx (Xtal controlled)
* A couple of Ivistors ( transistor switch , relay replacements)
* Aerotone mini Rx ( aeromodeller 1959)
* Relayless c/w Rx ( RCM&E 1964) drives a Mighty Midget motor directly for pulse operation.
* 2 Valve TX from an early 50's design
* Telephone Dial sequence coder for an ED ground base set I have

I have to stop finding new projects for the museum...

Just knocked up a flyball actuator tonight.. I always wanted to see how effective they actually are. I'm going to use it with the ABC pulser Tx and the Aeromodeller Rx.

Shaun

Author Topic: Under 50's need not apply... reviving 1960s radio control ! (Read 29184 times)

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