Topic: Multiplex Evo 9

Back in the real world where people actually have some experience of flying gliders with crow brakes, you will find that the amount of elevator compensation required is surprisingly similar between different models, even with what seem like different set ups/wings/control surface sizes etc.

The obvious thing to do with the Evo is to assign the elevator "compensation" to the digi adjuster and adjust it in flight. On my maiden flights I always get the crow set up worked out pretty soon in the flight. Well certainly the amount of down elevator. Sometimes you need to adjust the amount of flap and/or aileron to get it to fly nicely with the brakes out (or partially out), but you need to get it down first time.

You will find that large down flap elevations (say 60 degrees plus) cause a permanent (often large) pitch change in the nose which is why you need an input from the elevator.  It's never entirely linear, but usually it's fairly even after a bit of fiddling with the set up.

by the way what sort of surface deflections are you getting at the moment? I tend to assume we crow brakes we are talking about a LOT of down flap and a bit of up aileron. but obviously the more even the ratio the less the pitch change tends to be.

On the models I've had with crow setups (real models, in the real world, with which I've had real experiences  ) I have always set crow to full up aileron and full down flap - usually needing a smidge of down-elevator rim in compensation. I generally use the crow brakes as an "all or nothing" thing, so I operate the crow function from the stick-top button (KTa widget) in momentary mode so that I can dab it on and off as required.

On e-soarers I also generally set the throttle to closed from the same widget (can't think of any occaision when I'd need to use crow with power on).

The two models I've had with six-servo (flap/aileron/blade-airbrake) wings had the airbrakes coupled into the same control.These needed neutral or slight up-elevator compensation.

On hotliners I don't use the button, but have a "landing" flight phase in which the throttle stick operates the throttle over the upper half of the travel and the crow brakes over the lower half, to give me a progressive transition from full brake through to full power on the one stick. This is useful, but I freely admit that to some extent this is complexity for the sake of complexity - I do it because I *can* rather than out of any pressing need to do so.

PDR

by the way what sort of surface deflections are you getting at the moment? I tend to assume we crow brakes we are talking about a LOT of down flap and a bit of up aileron. but obviously the more even the ratio the less the pitch change tends to be.

Flaps are about a 60 degree angle, ailerons are set to 75%.

what's the model?

Slightly off subject again but I didn't want to start a new post.....

I've decided to use some MPX 6 pin connectors for the 1st time to cut down on the excessive wiring, but the wing is a 2 piece so I'll use 1 on each wing, male 1 side , female the other so they can't be connected wrong. I presume that it doesn't matter which pins the ailerons and flaps are connected to as long as they correspond on the opposite plug. Is it best to solder the 2 neg and 2 pos wires to 1 piece of wire to help with the soldering on to the pins? Hope the description makes sense. I've got this as a guide Attachment browser: 114_1460.JPG by hydrogin - RC Groups

no it doesn't matter as long as the pins match on both sides.

You can pair the negatives and positives. I don't though. There isn't really a lot to go wrong with them.

excuse me?  Where do I mention the nose going up or down? 

When you offered it as an explanation for the trim changes with the statement:

"ailerons will make the wing go down not up. Flaps make the wing go up. More down flap than up aileron means down elevator."

HTH,

PDR

that is what happens though. I'm offering advice on what happens with large flap deflections. Anyway the proof will be in the flying. Down elevator will be needed.

MPX connectors done...LOADS easier than I 1st thought. Space looked tight between the pins but actually there was loads of room.

they are not too bad. They are a sturdy connector and i think are designed for repeated reconnection. Beats servo leads anyway!

Well I maidened the Topmodel Gem tonight using the Evo 

It isn't fully setup yet, no dual rates, no camber change and no elevator to aileron (or is that the other way round  ) , but other than that it's done. I don't think it needs full span ailerons but the difference was very noticable. I haven't sussed how to apply the elevator compensation to a dial for crow in flight yet, it was a little out  but still controllable.

Jeez, flaps are mint. If I was confident enough to bring it in straight at me at head height I feel I could have just caught it. Roll on the weekend.....

flaps are rather good!

I'm about to build the Typhoon I ordered 'a bit' ago, and want to use the offset flap install. To do the offsetting, do I just go to servo calibration and centre each servo from there? Cheers....

I'm about to build the Typhoon I ordered 'a bit' ago, and want to use the offset flap install. To do the offsetting, do I just go to servo calibration and centre each servo from there? Cheers....

you can do that, but there is a curve that does the job.  I think it's called "single sided with offset".

you can do that, but there is a curve that does the job.  I think it's called "single sided with offset".

Ok, looked through both manuals, and the Evo tuturial  can't find 'single sided with offset' option  . This is only the 2nd glider I'll be setting up with the Evo, and I'm still getting used to it, and I've forgotten most of how I did the 1st one anyway . Can you point me to where this option is?

 Cheers

i might be wrong about that. If you look at the options for mixer inputs in the manual, one of them is something with an offset.

The single sided with offset is set in the individual mixer definition menu (eg "AILERON+"), which is in the menu accessed by the top left button (on the two rows of buttons along the bottom of the TX front face).  The symbol used is like a little spade pointing down, with a horizontal line through it...

Andy

Well I sorted the offset flap install  . Not that hard but did stretch me a little. I've followed the MPX tutorial and set up the mixes as stated in there for a FH sailplane, but I've got an issue. When deploying crow, 1 aileron goes the wrong way. If I use switch N as per programming suggests, then the aileron which goes down swaps from left to right. Camber changing flaps were the same but I seem to have sorted that although I don't know how. Getting pretty frustrated now, think I might delete the mixes I created (as instucted in the tutorial) and start again as something just isn't right. After an hour or so I start to feel like this    and have to leave it alone. Does anyone else think the tutorial is slightly out re:programming or do I need more time to adjust to the MPX way?

Which software version do you have in your evo?

PDR

Latest, which ever that is. 35mhz upgraded to MPX 2.4g.

I think that'd be v 3.41, but I've slept since then.........

The latest for the M-Link Sx is v 3.04. I updated mine a couple of weeks back.

In which case there will be some differences - the tutorial was written for the initial software and updated to include the changes in all the version 1.xx versions, but hasn't been maintained after that. The "Pro" versions (2.xx) and 2.4G versions (3.xx) have some differences and improvements which could change the behaviour in 4-servo wing programming. I suspect you may have fallen foul of the way that versions 2 and above have removed the need for the left-right rule in servo assignment, but without the full detail of what you've done it's hard to advise.

I'm assuming you have a 4-surface wing with inboard flaps and outboard ailerons, and you're trying to implement full-span "camber" control (all four move together as flaps), ailerons and possibly crow brakes - is this correct? If so what mixers have you defined and how have you assigned the servos, controls and widgets to them?

PDR

I followed the tuturial from p55 regarding setting up a FH sailplane. If you don't have the tuturial at hand I can post the mixes but unsure how to descibe the functions (symmetrical/asymmetrical etc)

I remember having the same trouble when I first setup the Gem, however that model snapped it's wing and I deleted the setup, although I stuck with the preset Glider option rather than creating any mixes for the Gem. Line of thought was to revert back to preset Glider menu, ignore the Aileronx, Flapx mixes that were created and just use the Aileron+/Flap+ that are preset, fumble around a bit and hopefully get it right. If I compare Aileron+ to the Aileronx that the tutorial says create, there are differences that I think are the cause of the problems I'm having. But I'm not 100% sure this is the best way either.

Ok, I've reverted back to the standard + mixers. I've got camber changing flaps on the E slider working and  full span ailerons on the I switch (off/on).  Flaps work on the left stick but I can't get crow to work. If I set a value (50%) to Aileron - Spoilers then the Ailerons move in the right direction but become offset, even though the value is set as travel. This means that when the flaps are in the neutral position the ailerons are both down by the set value (50%). Any ideas anyone? I'll continue to 'fumble' about but I'm about to reach meltdown.....

I think I know what the problem is re:crow. Because I've done the offset flap install as posted on here by isoaritfirst, when you mix ailerons to spoilerons for crow, it appears that it ignores the recalibration of the flap offset and sets the ailerons to what would be the natural neutral position of the flap servos, i.e. 40-50 degrees down. Can't seem to find a solution. Anybody got any ideas other than re-installing the flap servo's? Would an additional mix coupled to a switch to activate the crow solve this? I'm going to post on RCGroups too as I'm pretty desperate to sort this without re-installing.

Way hey...sorted 

Seems that I the problem was I used a mix (flap+) which offset the flaps back to the trailing edge. TX ignored this factor and put the Ailerons in line with where the flaps would be without the offset. I tried recalibrating the servo's centre and everything works spot on. Even happier as I sussed it myself, feel like I'm starting to understand the 'MPX way' 

Although I've got the D/R for aileron and elevator on switch I, I'm wondering if it might be useful to assign D/R automatically for crow. But I'd also like to have D/R seperately too (or am I making things too complicated?)
Would creating 2 mixes, 1 for aileron - aileron and 1 for elevator  - elevator, with say 60% travel on each which are then assigned to the swich that activates crow do this? I'm using the N switch to activate refex/camber (switch up) or crow (down). Cheers.

You could do this simply by having different throws in two different flight phases, or by assigning the rates function to the same switch as the crow function, or by doing other things with bespoke mixers. I'm not 100% sure what you're trying to do though, so it's hard to advise!

PDR

All I'm trying to do is give automatic dual rates while crow is active/deployed, while still having dual rates available on a seperate switch.

What do you mean by "automatic dual rates"? Do you mean you want a reduced rate when crow is deployed or what?

Do you currently have any flight phases set up?

[we're nearly there!]

PDR

Yes I'm after having dual rates when crow is deployed.

I've got flight phases set up but not a 'landing' phase

Sorry - I'm being thick! Do you want LOW rate when crow is deployed, or do you want to have TWO RATES that you can switch between when crow is deployed? (surely you want two rates win normal flight as well?).

Assuming that you want to have the rates autmatically reduced when you deploy the crow then there are many ways you could do this. One way would be to assign a LANDING phase to the widget (switch) that you use for crow (you can assign multiple controls and functions to a single widget). This landing phase would have its own trims, travel and expo settings.  So if you normally had full rate as 100% and low rate as 50%, and you want it to automatically go to 50% rate when crow was deployed, you could set the LANDING phase travel to 50%. Low rate would then become "50% of 50%" (ie 25%) but whether this is suitable depends on whether you regularly use low rates in "normal" flight. But there are other ways of doing it as well.

FWIW I usually assign brakes to a stick-top button so that I can dab on-and-off as I wish, but I gather I'm unusual in this.

PDR

Ok, I've currently got dual rates (aileron and elevator only, no need for rudder IMO) on switch I. It can be switched between on and off whenever.

Crow is on the left stick. (switch N in down position)

Reflex/camber is on slider E. (switch N in the up postion)

What I want (or think I want) is when switch N is down (crow active), the travel on ailerons and elevator reduced.

I usually fly most of the time with high rates, but I don't want to think about needing to operate another switch (switch I) to reduce travel for landings.

So....if I assign the 'landing' phase to switch N in the down position and set the servo's up for reduced travel for that phase, that'll do the job? I might not like it when I've done it but it might work out ok.

I still think my original idea of 2 mixes (aileron-aileron and elevator- elevator) with reduced travel which would then be assigned to switch N in the down position WOULD have done what I wanted but admittingly it use 2 mixes where the landing phase is simpler.

I just didn't consider the landing phase as an option TBH.  I'm still working out what the Evo can actually do, the way to do it and the layout of switches etc that feel right for me.

 Cheers

Right - I understand now, and yes that is a way of doing it. But now that I understand I think there may be a simpler, or at least more clinical, way. You currently have (I'm guessing here) mixers for aileron and elevator (to give you flap/crow/camber and elevator trim compensation with flap & spoiler). If these mixers have a spare input (you can have up to five) then you simply add a second aileron input to the aileron mixer and a second elevator input to the elevator mixer. You can then set the second input with smaller travels. You switch between these inputs with the software switches (mix 1, 2 of 3), and you simply assign the software switches to your crow widget (switch N) to switch inputs. This will work in the same way as the flight phase method, but doesn't suffer the hickup that any trim you need in normal flight will have to be added again in the landing phase (trims are flight-phase specific and cannot be made "global").

But one other thought that might make me prefer the flight phase method - rather than reducing the THROW I'd be tempted to just use more expo when in crow mode. This will soften the control response for normal stick movement, but still have full control authority available if required for (say) battling in through turbulence on a windy day. Expos are flight-phase specific (I think - but I'd have to check) so you can set different expo levels for normal and landing phases.

£0.03 supplied,

PDR

PDR

Aaah...additional mixes, another way of doing it  . Wouldn't have thought of that either. I think your suggestion of more expo is a better one tho, as the control surface movements on the ailerons is only 7mm up high rates and suggested aileron mix for flaps is 5mm up. Ok it's measured at the tip, but when I've just set it up,  the throws looked as if they might be too low/soft when in flight.

Cheers for throwing different programming options at me, shows me just how good the Evo is and I'm really glad I got 1.

Cheque's in the post 

I'm sure there are probably other ways of doing this as well, but those are the ways that spring to mind. I use various combinations of the above on my hotliner so that I can switch between "launch mode" (throttle stick gives normal throttle action but with a curve that gets to full throttle at 40% stick, brakes inhibitted, down trim for vertical climb), "glide mode" (less down trim for fast cruise, throttle stick connected to nothing, throttle servo locked at zero, brakes on stick-top button for emergencies) and "landing mode" (neutral elevator trim, upper half of throttle stick travel operates the throttle, lower half operates brakes).

The evo is very flexible, and has an almost infinite range of tunable options. A pal of mine does DLG competitively, and the set-ups he uses in his models involviung different flight phases, auto-bunt at the top of the climb, integrated slot and flight timers etc etc make everything I do look hopelessly simplistic!

PDR

After using Mpx 3030 for some 16+ years now, I am finding trying to sort out a Pro16 like a Rubic cube .

I don't like this Global Mixing Idea at all.

Is there an instruction manual that  is legible to the average 70 plus modeller?

PM me an email address and I'll send you a copy of the last version of Jody's Evo Tutorial. This wasn't updated beyond the version 1.xx software, but it's very understandable because it starts with the basic concepts and then discusses how they are applied to specific model types. Once you've read the tutorial the manual itself (for software versions 2.** and 3.**) becomes much easier to understand.

PDR

Does anyone know if I can use a Cockpit SX with a buddy lead on to my Evo 9 to try and teach my son to fly, or would it need to be another Evo?