Topic: Camel/direct driven ZG62

Hello all,

I've got a question for you dawn patrollers  
There are a lot of direct driven ZG62 planes at your Dawn Patrol

Has anyone thoughts about a direct driven ZG62 on a 1/3 Mick Reeves Camel?
The largest prop would be a 26x8" then
(it just sticks out of the cowl  )

Could the ZG62 alone pull a 17kg Camel?

I'm using the ZG62 with Torquemaster now but I was just wondering how this would work without the torquemaster
I could use the stock silencer and maybe even spare 700 grams of ballast  

The thing is I sometime have a hard time starting the unit, the ZG62 PCI alone should go better I guess(?)
Other thing is that I also may swap the ZG62 to my Tiger Moth sometimes, getting the reduction on and off is some extra work then...

Just like your thoughts about this

Thanks in advance,
Ralf

My first camel had the Zenoah 80 twin which was fine power wise, as was the direct drive Z62 in the Morane Saulnier.

Having got the BUSA Pup now with a Z38 on a reduction drive I think that is the way to go. My current Camel has a 3W-100 which i haven't flown yet, may actually be retrofitted with the Z38 unit pretty soon... 

Main issue on tye direct drive is the little prop (24"), means you can't slow the plane up too much as the "waft" disappears.... Unlike the 32" on the DD unit...

hi Ralf

   i cant realy see a problem with the direct drive 62, my pup weighs about the same as your camel and flies at 1/3 to 1/2 throttle most of the time, the prop size needs to be right for the engine so 24x8  26x6 should be fine, remember that an airscrew (thats what it is on the front) pulls your aeroplane along so how much prop sticks out beyond the cowl is not as important as having the correct one and the engine set up well, (i have a 62 tuned to run a 28x6 prop these big 2 strokes like to work) but stuey is correct it wont slow as much and needs to fly slightly quicker to kep waft over the tail but it is only a bit and only noticable when flown alongside a gear equiped plane.

  cj.

As some of you know I have just taken the geared 38 out of my pup and fitted a 80 twin. I did that as I had trouble with the 38 on the reduction drive and I needed to sort it quickly. On the twin with the smaller prop I find that at slow speeds there is considerably less control with the tail surfaces compared to that 32x18 prop wafting over it.
When I can afford to buy a new 38 for the reduction drive then it will go back in. It is most defiantly a nicer set up, although I enjoy the twin.

Simon

Hi Ralf

I have flown my Camel with the 38 and TC reduction, plus also Captain Beaky's 62 + Torquemaster Camel, plus Pups on direct 62 and 80 twins. The 62 will definately fly the Camel with issue, but you will see a difference in the controls. In my honest opinion, the 38 is the best set up I've used, followed by the geared 62, then the direct 62 or 80 twin. There seems to be very little in it between a 62 and an 80 for these models. On your Camel, you say it is hard to start, are you using the easy start box? Captain Beaky's Camel was a pain to start, now he has fitted the easy start it starts very easily. His problem was mainly that it was hard to choke well enough, since the carb is on the bottom with his installation, so when choking, most of the fuel simply fell out of he carb!! The easy start box has certainl ransformed the way is starts.

Ian.

Hi all,  
Thank you very much for the replies  ,
to be honest I hadn't thought about the lesser propwash over the tailsection  

That's a good reason not to use a direct ZG62

I'll keep using the Geared 62 then  
Sometimes it's hard to start, probably indeed due to the choking
I use the ZG62 PCI, the new one with the electronic ignition, that should be an easy starter
when you choke too hard the sparkplug gets wet and it will not start
(engine inverted), wait 5 minutes till it vaporizes and then it starts soon
With my setup it isn't easy to dismantle the sparkplug without removing the cowl and other stuff  
Didn't think of that while engineering the engine compartment  , (well, lesson learned then)

I think I have to get to know my way in seeing when the choking is at the best point to start
TC advises to start with closed choke till you hear a grunt, then open choke and start
Works well if there is already fuel in the hose, not so in my case where the fuel must come from the tank (app. 10 cm below carb. level)

For starting I use a thick glove (for garden use)
With the Camel I also have difficulties not to crash into the Vickers guns while starting, they are so close to the prop  
Perhaps I'll think of a solution to remove them before starting and replace while running (?)

Ian also thanks for the PM-comment on the bigger prop (32x10-12"), I'll order a 32x12" and see what happens
(I'm flying the 30x12" now with satisfaction)


Good to hear that most of you like the geared ZG38 for the Sopwith's
I know 3 Pups here in Holland who fly this unit to satisfaction
One is about 18kg and does fly well, but struggles with a little more wind

I also know 5 TC Tiger Moths who fly this geared ZG38, some of them would like to have more power in it
This seems curious because the Moth's are mostly about 13-14 kg, while the Pups are mostly 14-16 kg's
(perhaps it is the bigger cowl?)
Do you Dawn Patrollers have enough power in it to fly loops without diving?

For sure is that the 32x18" is the best choice for an 1/3 WW1 bipe
Thanks all for your replies  
Cheers, Ralf

I too had a hard time starting  my g62 with MR drive.  It would start fine when cold; but wouldn't start at all when warm.  Tried all the usual fixes, but none worked.  Turned out I had a very small gasket leak between the cylinder and the crankcase.  Replaced the gasket and have had no problems ever since.

John

Thanks John,

That sounds familiar with cold and warm start, maybe I'll check that gasket
I don't see any leakage on mine though 
When warm mine doesn't want to be choked otherwise it just will not run 

What propsize are you using on your drive?

Cheers, Ralf

I'm building a 1/3rd M.R. Camel at the moment.
Going to use a 120cc 4-stroke petrol engine.
Bench testing with a Menz 32x12 gives 4000rpm max and a super slow idle.

Do you guys think this will fly the plane well? 

The engine comes complete with a hand held gear reduction starter, powered from a 12v car battery (not included).
At a show last year, there was a 1/3rd Camel powered by a reduction drive Z62. The owner couldn't start the engine and eventually gave up. I lent him my electric starter and it started first time every time. No worries about where the prop was timed or choking - it didn't need any. The starter turns it over at around 1000rpm, so the engine self primes. 

Steve

Steve

We currently have a few MR's Camels in the DP running on geared Z38's/Z62's and straight 80/100 twins
All fly the model well, but the most impressive for me is the geared 38, swings a big prop and sounds great.
So you should be fine as you will need nose weight, and the 32x12 will be a better scale size.

Steve

Ralf

I am using a 30x12 zoar prop on the G62.  It tachs at 42-4300 at the prop.

John

Ralf

I am using a 30x12 zoar prop on the G62.  It tachs at 42-4300 at the prop.

John

John, I assume your 62  is geared on that prop.

Steve

Ralf

I am using a 30x12 zoar prop on the G62.  It tachs at 42-4300 at the prop.

John

If that's on a gear reduction unit, what rpm is the actual engine doing.
Sounds like it must be up around 9k. 

Going to use a 120cc 4-stroke petrol engine.
Bench testing with a Menz 32x12 gives 4000rpm max and a super slow idle.

Do you guys think this will fly the plane well?  

Hi Steve, shall fly well Iassume  
(got myself a 50cc 4-stroke on a 13,5 kg Tiger Moth which is very well powered  )

Have you please got any pics of the starter, its very interesting!

@John, thanks, I'm also using a 30x12" but I'll try a 32x10"

@Steve, 1,75x4300=7525rpm  

Thanks, Ralf

Going to use a 120cc 4-stroke petrol engine.
Bench testing with a Menz 32x12 gives 4000rpm max and a super slow idle.

Steve

So what's this engine then?  is it a conversion or off the shelf item?  got any pictures of it, does it have a wet sump?

So what's this engine then?  is it a conversion or off the shelf item?  got any pictures of it, does it have a wet sump?

The engine was developed for the UAV's that I build and fly (thats my job   )
The UAV engines are fuel injected, but the manufacturer's have produced a carb version for R/C aircraft.
There is no sump, it runs on two-stroke petrol, the oil content is 4%.

Ralf,
I don't have a picture of the starter, or a camera here at the moment.
I can take a photo and post it if you like.

Steve

Details

This is a picture of a UAV engine, the model aircraft version is virtually the same.

That's a fine looking engine Steve  
How much does it weigh?
120cc for a single cilinder is huge, how about vibrations while running?
What type of silencer are you using and is it silent (enough)?

Sent you a mail with my email for the pic

Thanks, Ralf

That looks a hefty lump    (not an issue with a camel) What's the key way on the shaft do you need to have a key in the prop mounting hole?

Someone didn't use the image gallery tag correctly 

That looks a hefty lump    (not an issue with a camel) What's the key way on the shaft do you need to have a key in the prop mounting hole?

Looks like the prop driver fits there


Mark

The R/C version of the engine weighs 8.1lbs.
How does that compare to the other engines mentioned here?

As I said, the one in the picture is a UAV engine. The key on the shaft is for the Generator which fits to the front of the engine.

On the R/C version the key locates the prop driver, which is not in the picture. The prop is secured by a bolt, in the same way as the Zenoah engines.

Other differences are, in the picture there is a temperature sensor fitted to the head and a timing pick-up on the side of the crankcase for the EFI. Neither of these are on the R/C version.

Vibration levels are very low due to a fully mass balanced crank.
The silencer is being custom made by the engine company.

Price?  
The ZG62 with Torquemaster weighs almost the same, but CG is more backwards

Ralf

Price? 
The ZG62 with Torquemaster weighs almost the same, but CG is more backwards

Ralf

Price is £800 or £940 with the starter. It's Brit built as well.   

Interesting that it's the same weight as a ZG62 with Torquemaster. Sounds like I should have a very nice set-up in my Camel. 
Not sure what you mean by 'CG is more backwards' though.
Should I be expecting to add weight to the nose/tail?


Steve

Not sure what you mean by 'CG is more backwards' though.

Hi Steve,

The CG of the torquemaster unit is lying more backwards due to the reduction drive in front of the cilinder
Yours has the cilinder with it's weight more in front so that's a benefit 

I also think your engine is a very good candidate for the Camel   

My Camel uses 1200 gram ballast in the nose    with the standard kit tailplane
Maybe you can lose some weight at the tail and save in noseballast

Have you got any progress pics??? 


Ralf

Hi Steve,

Have you got any progress pics???  


Ralf

Hi Ralph,

I haven't taken many photo's. But heres one of the Fuselage.
Should be painting soon.

Details

Steve

Wow Steve,

Looks lovely 
Very interested in the progress,
Please give us some more pics in the near future 

Thanks, Ralf

Wow Steve ..... Please give us some more pics in the near future 

 

What Ralf said!    More photographs please it looks lovely.

Alan

 

What Ralf said!    More photographs please it looks lovely.

Alan

I want more too Steve, superb stuff

Ian.

Wow, thanks for the compliments Guys. 
Will post more pictures as progress is made.

Cheers,
Steve

A few pictures of progress so far, I need to get on with it 

http://www.rcmf.co.uk/4um/MGalleryItem.php?id=24827

http://www.rcmf.co.uk/4um/MGalleryItem.php?id=24828

http://www.rcmf.co.uk/4um/MGalleryItem.php?id=24829

Couldn't get the images on here, had to use the link option.
Also I noticed the pictures from my other posts have disappeared, anyone know why?

Steve

that's lovely, shame there isn't a scheme using all over linen as it looks amazing in the air. I have a 1/4 camel in linen and am reluctant to paint it in PC10... 

that's lovely, shame there isn't a scheme using all over linen as it looks amazing in the air. I have a 1/4 camel in linen and am reluctant to paint it in PC10... 

I know what you mean, I'm seriously thinking about using Olive drab. 
 Not very scale, but much better looking.

That's looking very nice:

Well done that man  

Your next assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to find out why the images (that were there) have disappeared from two of my previous posts 

That looks really good Steve!  

I made a small modification to the undercarriage, maybe you can benefit from this  
The first landings were nice but the roll out was bad, and even had a groundloop with it  

Reason: when the wheels 'dive in' the bungees, the axles move to the backside of the A-frame (UC)
This causes toe out on the wheels  
So the plane will not be running straight, it will start to 'waggle' and this can cause a groundloop
(I assure you, you don't want this on a plane like this, this means re-rigging and so on  )

I've put some plastic covers on the back leg of the A-frane to prevent the axle from moving backwards, this really helps a lot  

With this the Camel is easy to land  

Hope you can benefit from this, (it sure crashed my ego  )

Greetz, Ralf

(for the record, I made last weekend 4 perfect flights with my Camel
the Torquemaster with ZG62 worked perfectly and started nice.
I had removed a little tension off the belt, which works out well)

Looks great Steve.   

Those lovely delicate wire trailing edges are such an improvement on the chunky plywood trailing edges on my Tripehound

Looks like it's nearly all down hill from here!

Alan

Looks really good. How are you going to operate the ailerons as I see nothing in the ribs yet to accommodate it.

Simon

Looks really good. How are you going to operate the ailerons as I see nothing in the ribs yet to accommodate it.

Simon

I decided to deviate from the plan and fit the aileron servo's in the lower wings. Didn't like the original idea with one central servo driving all four ailerons.

Ralf,

Thanks for the tip on the undercarriage.
I already noticed there was nothing holding the axle straight and made my own mod, it's different to yours, but has the same effect.
I made up some nylon spacers that fit on the axles, one where the axle goes through the 'A' frame and the other at the inboard end.
These keep the axles straight however much the suspension deflects.
Always good to hear other peoples solutions 

Steve

O.K. last weekend I spent a whole good flying day trying to start my ZG62/Torquemaster 
It just wouldn't start 
Battery OK and nothing changed from the weekend before when I had 4 great flights

Gerhard Reinsch (Toni Clark) advised to use a non-resistor spark plug, the Champion CJ-7Y instead of the RCJ-7Y
I'm gonna try this one 

Do you know if a starter spring like this one would work on a reduction drive?



Would the spring be strong enough to get the reduction round?
Should the belt slip when using this spring?

Anyone familiar with this spring in combination with a reduction drive? 

Hope you can help me, my arm and shoulder are still hurting from a whole day starting 

Thanks, Ralf