Topic: Dynamic 60

And more congratulations already than the new F3F world record got in a month! Lol

 

Blimey!
What's F3F?

Adam, you haven't sneaked a WR without even telling us?.....

 

I just started building mine... 

Some more arriving soon...

Z

I just started building mine... 

Some more arriving soon...

Z

quantify, soon . . . 
 

They are leaving Joe's early next week I believe...

Z

Any White 80s amongst them?

Every colour mate.

Z

Hello All

Anybody published any throws as yet?

Also interested in that balls people are using? and where they got them.
I would like to find the same balls as used on the 80 as I have lods of sockets for them. Any Ideas? preferably with m2 threads as I have a tap for them.

Hey Will

Get in touch with me tomorrow mate. Few things to let you know about on your build from Joe.

I will be putting them into a short build doc over the weekend.

The balls that you want are the Thunder Tiger balls. If you can't find them elsewhere I'll sort you some out.

Cheers

Z

Something like this?
http://www.fast-lad.co.uk/store/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=control+ball&x=0&y=0

I thought I bought my ball links from here but cant find them now. Don't remember what heli they come off.

What about throws? Any throws as yet?

I have managed to package a ds095 in the fin. hope to get some servo wire today so I can glue it in place this evening. Elevator horn installed.

Hey will.

   It's not necessary to have to use the thunder Tigre balls, any decent m2 from your local model shop will do the job. Think mine are radio active ones, come in packs of 10 with balls sockets screws nuts etc. Nice and tight too.

   I'll measure my throws at the weekend if it warms up.

Hey will.

   It's not necessary to have to use the thunder Tigre balls, any decent m2 from your local model shop will do the job. Think mine are radio active ones, come in packs of 10 with balls sockets screws nuts etc. Nice and tight too.

   I'll measure my throws at the weekend if it warms up.

iii, i am your butterfly,whats all all that about homey?

Hey will.

   It's not necessary to have to use the thunder Tigre balls, any decent m2 from your local model shop will do the job. Think mine are radio active ones, come in packs of 10 with balls sockets screws nuts etc. Nice and tight too.

   I'll measure my throws at the weekend if it warms up.

The point I was making is that I wantes something compatible with what I already have. After breaking one on by d80 I bought a pack, so whay by more.

But after my visit to midland helicopters today, there are only 2 sizes they they use. This is the smaller, and they are visibly diferent. I picked up 2 diferent variants. One with balls, screws and nuts (That sounds sexual) and the other the ball has a thread, but unlike some it doesnt have a hex between the ball and the thread it as a female hex in the ball so is quite compact.

They also have push rods of different lengths with threads on both side. They come in m2 and m2.3, where m2.3 is better for the ball links but m2 is what most of our clevis's are. So I got a pac of m2  and m2.3 and 100mm and 110mm to have a play with.

I think these will be too long, but can be cut in half and be used in 2 different places.

Also spoke to them about arms, On hellies they use really thick servo arms to stop the arm rotating, and aluminium. And they think they should have one to fit a hyperon, but as they dont know the spline they could be wrong.

Seems with a bit more time, there could have been more things that could be brought onto 0slop ds machines.

[quote   ........ One with balls, screws and nuts (That sounds sexual)
[/quote]

As in ..........

What
Eats
Roots
Shoots
&
Leaves?

Panda.

I reccomend not using any ball links on the D60. It does not require them to get 90 degree flaps and just over complicates the build. For the wing, I have found it best to use all four arms the same length. It is the arms with the shortest inner hole. I believe it is the double arm and the 4 way arm. The single arm has the hole too far out. Use the inner hole and a clevis to clevis setup and the build will be a snap and you will have more than enough flap. If you grind the clevis to clear the output shaft on the servo then you will have more than 90 degree flaps so it is not necessary. Also, the covers do not fit well around the ball links. They are a waste of time on the D60 IMO. Best to keep it simple I think.

Wow, where you been Joe. Hows the new workshop coming along? all moved in?

Thanxs for taking the time to pop in here and share your thoughts.

Rick has mentioned some weights for tip balasting 1/2 pound in each tip if memory server. Is this correct? what weights have you flown with D60.

I am building mine as a mid spec, Not for heavy days (60 mph over the top) or the light days, but somewhere inbetween, maybe 30 mph to 40 mph over the top (Well that is a good day in the peaks) so was thinking 1/4 pound in each tip?

Will

P.S. gona stick with the balls, just cos I have them, and can make tighter linkages with them. Planning to drill my own hole, and open up the servo to travel (If only on the flaps) need to glue the horns in and have a play.

Hey Will

Thanksgiving over there just now, so I'm guessing Joe's tied up.

Anyway, his spec on tipweight for the D60 is actually 10oz per tip, not 8oz (1/2 lb).

Using the Joe's method of installing it that I have outlined to you, it's really easy to add more, hence my telling you to start out with 8oz rather than the full flavour 10.

However, I would say that your idea of 4oz is probably too little to give you much advantage. Remember my D40 had 3oz per tip and felt great. If you want to be conservative with your tipweight but still be able to feel the advantage from it, I'm guessing that you're probably good to go for something like at least 6oz. You can always put more in later, but start with something that will make a difference.

You are already used to flying something with a little weight in the same conditions as others, given that you always managed to fly your heavier D80 in the same conditions as the rest of us before I modded mine to weigh the same as yours, so I think you are certainly able to handle a more aggressively built D60 as well 

Right now I'm still the only Dynamic owner to have tried two models with tip weight out and with tip weight in, and I can honestly tell you all that there really isn't a downside. My D40 felt just the same on the front and felt soooo good on the back before I stacked it. The D80 feels just the same frontside and during the landing phase, but feels really nice and steady in the DS circuit with the tip weight in. I really recommend putting something with a little purpose in there!

Z

Well balls are giving me grief
The problem is that the the linkage is m2.3 and the clevis is m2, so you need some kind of adapter. and it makes it all a bit long.

Details

So I tried 2 clevises and got the length to aim for, now to get there.
My bet is I will need some ball links that use m2 as I have never heard of a m2.3 clevis.

Details

some Dims For Other Builders
I Have put my flap horn 5mm from the trailing edge.
Haven't done the ailerons yet.

Details

Details

All the horns for the wing are designed and work best at 9MM forward of the TE. I would put them there. Add 10oz per tip. You wont regret it. still lands soft and flys fine in 20+ winds. Less than 10oz is no good. Trust me, it doesnt feel heavy or sluggish. It will weigh about 83oz all up empty. Make a 13 to17oz block of lead for the fuse. Shoot for 100oz for the big days. Mine is currently at 112oz. I flew one at 116oz with no issues. FWIW, the fastest D40 uses 8oz per tip for span loading. 10oz is nothing.

All the horns for the wing are designed and work best at 9MM forward of the TE.

Would that not put the horn 3mm forward of the hinge line?
Well if we have to grind it out so be it!

Make sure the chord of both ailerons and flaps are the same before you go measuring from the trailing edge. Or you could end up with a few mm diference from the hinge lines.

   

Hi Will

It looks like you've already had a snoop around a heli shop but in case it's useful to you, I took some photos of my heli linkages and a schematic in case you consider ball-links at both ends to get round your setup conundrum. There are different diameter and length rods available for different helis. Mine is a T-Rex 450 so it's one of the smaller examples (715mm rotor diameter). The measurements of the linkages are shown in the diagram. The ball-links are M2 and you'll see my tail servo has a metal arm (this isn't standard, I just had one left over from my MCT build). The metal arm is threaded and the ball screws directly into it but I put a nut on the back anyway with locktite to lock it all good and proper. The linkage rods on the rotor head are only 1.3mm diameter. The bigger helis have similar components... only bigger. I'm sure you'll find something you can use. I know how i'm going to link up my next glider. It's just frustrating when it delays a build. I hope you get it sorted.

These guys here are a good supplier and they deliver next day. The bloke that runs the business is called Raj and he's really helpful. I'm sure he'd help you find suitable sized rods etc over the phone.

http://www.align-trex.co.uk

http://www.align-trex.co.uk/ball-link-h45045-p-247.html

These ones here are for a TRex 550 and are 1.96mm rod diameter: http://www.align-trex.co.uk/stainless-steel-linkage-h55049-p-1591.html

This is where I got my M2 metal servo arms: http://www.rcworld.co.uk/acatalog/Servo_horns_and_screws.html
The main difference between the M2 and M3 metal arms is the thread size in the holes, otherwise I think they're identical.

I forgot to mention, when clipping on ball-links, the lettering goes on the outside. (one side has lettering, the other doesn't)

Steve

Hasnt Joe dropped the ball links on the D60's now in favour of clevis's all round ..?

As someone with a few span-loaded planes, & a D40 to build, I'm very interested (as I'm sure are others) in the particular load recommendations contained in this & other Dynamic threads.

Joe: do your recommendations "per tip" mean just that or are they amounts intended to be distributed along the span?
I suspect the latter, for a number of reasons including the likely difficulty of physically stuffing 8 oz of lead shot/epoxy mix into the tip of a D40!
If across the span, what (approximate) distribution?
I've never loaded otherwise than up against a main spar.

Make sure the chord of both ailerons and flaps are the same before you go measuring from the trailing edge. Or you could end up with a few mm diference from the hinge lines.

   

I've just been out and measured all the models I have in the workshop and all the surfaces are identical chords at their roots, so based on that I don't think that there's a worry. Would agree though that it's best to measure from the hingeline, as this is the location that is relevant to the linkage geometry.

Z

As someone with a few span-loaded planes, & a D40 to build, I'm very interested (as I'm sure are others) in the particular load recommendations contained in this & other Dynamic threads.

Joe: do your recommendations "per tip" mean just that or are they amounts intended to be distributed along the span?
I suspect the latter, for a number of reasons including the likely difficulty of physically stuffing 8 oz of lead shot/epoxy mix into the tip of a D40!
If across the span, what (approximate) distribution?
I've never loaded otherwise than up against a main spar.

Graham - you definitely don't do it with lead shot mate. It's too inaccurate and hard to control.

The method that Joe uses is as follows:

Lead sheet is carefully measured into strips, around 10mm wide. The number that you use and how long they are depend on how much weight you want to get into the tips. Once you have decided on the lengths and number, carefully tape them together with just ONE thin tape around at either end. This ensures that the lead sheets can still move against each other and bend easily once taped together. Use your dremel to put a few little keys into the front edge of the lead sheets where they will but against the shear web.

Then you feed them into the wing via the servo well and once they are in position, start firing some thick cyano down there to bond the assembly to the shear web.

The key advantage to this method is that you know exactly where the lead is going. You can make sure that the lead sheets are identical in length and weight before they go into the wing, and because they are the same shape right to left, their weight distribution is also identical. Then you can easily control exactly where they go in the wing as you feed them in, this ensuring symmetrical weight distribution. Once in the bend left in the lead will mean that it contacts the wing lower wing skin at either end, and the upper wing skin in the middle, as well as the shear web all along the front edge. Plenty of bonding area. My D80 was actually done using this method AFTER the servos were installs - super convenient and very quick as well. Lead shot and epoxy is a nightmare compared and you can't control it once it is in the wing.
Get some nice new lead sheet 1.2mm thick.

Cheers

Z

Thanks for the description, Zim.

My span loading so far has all been retro fit so, not being (sadly!) D80s with loads of space in the servo wells, it's all been dropped in via a hole drilled in the wingskin & distributed along the spar with improvised tools. Has worked well, though it's handy to remember not to re-seal the hole each side before balancing the wing.
My only concern has been the localised stiffening of a wooden spar - but anyone whose seen the wingbend on my Opus V would reckon that concern misplaced!
Only used 3 hour epoxy, to avoid excessive heat generation during cure.

Will certainly adopt your method on newbuilds.
And with mass added to aft side of the spar, decent point adhesion between lead & spar ought to suffice

Still wincing at the amounts you guys are adding............!

Graham you should find that you can retro fit to anything using this method. Although the D80 does have large servo wells, at the aileron station they are completely filled with the 20mm servo that we put in there! So in order to get it in as a retro fit I had to take back the lip that the servo cover sits on almost back to the wing skin itself - leaving just 1mm for the cover to sit on for the 25mm where the lead plate slides in. I think I did my D80 with 5 layers of lead, so the gap that I had to work with was around 6mm. it's a really great method really. I'm pretty sure that it would work just fine as a retro fit on anything, as you only need 2mm to get that first sheet in! And come to think of it, you don't necessarily  need to put them in at the same time - you could put one in, fix it in position, then put the next in etc, so all the while you are working with a gap between the well skin and the servo of 2mm max.

Cheers!

Z

right, I found the answer. Hirobo to a m2 ball joint, and it all seems to work quite well.

Details

What I am strugeling with is why people are building as they are.
I tried clevis to clevis, but could not get a decent lock out condition doing it the way Joe described.
I have had to relieve the drag spar, the wiper and the exit (Recess where the fairing sits), This is to help achieve 90° flap down, and just a couple of mm up.

Details

45mm between centers

Details

I have made a new hole, using an m2 nut as a template. holding it up against the hub and then drilling through with a 1.5 and taping m2.

Details

I am now happy with my programming, and horn placement (hole is over the hinge) and the movement.

Now to glue them in, but first find a good solution for the flaps.

Details

Details

Sorry, I haven't been here for a few days. Here is how I build em.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1237181&page=12

Joe

Thanks for that Joe, very straightforward with such clear instruction.

Just one issue - the price of lead.
Hardly surprising it costs an arm & a leg when you've got half the world's annual output strapped across a chair in your workshop.

Interesting.

Just ground out the flap horn.
This build is not getting any better, becoming a bit of a dogs.
More to the point, with the back of the horn at 9mm from the trailing edge, the front of the horn is about 2mm past the hinge line, on top of this the horn sweeps forward.

Which pits the hole well (Maybe 5mm) in front of the hinge line.
My 5mm to my calcs should have put it over the hinge line, which is to your drawings.

not sure what to do with this build, keep trying to do the correct thing, but well.

On top of that #2 is looming ever near ( my second child due on the 18th) so I am not to go flying, and some I think we are going to be in for a cold winter, so may take 3 months before I see a slope again, so what the point.

I also think the quality of the dynamics is up for questioning.

Will

P.S. The negativity will subside in a while, just a bit premenstral at the moment.

Wow Will - very negative post! I think the quality of the Dynamics comes up for questions when they do not fulfil their design goal - to go fast and be unbreakable in the air. Their record as the world record airframes in all of their span categories seems to show that they are doing that job quite well. Added to that, pretty much everyone who owns a Dynamic has their fastest ever personal speed recorded with it. I've always said to people, if you have a quality question call me first. I just got done with a bit of a teacher/ pupil session with Joe on Skype the other night and I am getting more and more equipped to help people get the best out of their builds and so on thanks to Joe's time in helping me understand the best way to get things done and working perfectly.

As for your geometry. I think there is a little bit of misunderstanding on your part here. You seem very concerned about having the flap horn hole over the hingeline. That is not what you need. What you need, as Mike's diagrams show really well, is a 90 degree angle formed by the run of the pushrod, through the horn hole, and then down to the hinge line. With the angle of the pushrod formed by the cross over linkage used on the Dynamic's flaps, the horn hole MUST sit in front of the hinge line to form this correct geometry.

The aileron, on the other hand, is different. Because a cross over linkage is NOT used, the run of the pushrod means that to get the right angle from the horn hole to the hinge line and from the horn hole down the run of the pushrod - well this puts the aileron horn in a place where the hole IS pretty much over the hingeline. But that's purely coincidental. Mike's diagrams explain that far better than I can with words.

But the important principle is that having your horn hole over the hingeline is a red herring. It's the angle formed by the pushrod run through the horn hole and then down to the hingeline that matters - this should be 90 degrees.

To be completely truthful about it, you cracked on really quickly with your D60 build and unfortunately you got there a couple of nights before Joe published his build online on RCG so you didn't have the benefit of his measurements. That's not your fault. So please come round tomorrow, bring your wing, and I'll give you a new set of flap horns, and if you like I'll get the old ones dremeled out and tidied up for you and install the new ones whilst you're here. I'm sure that your D60 build doesn't need to end up, in your words, as a bit of a dogs. I'd like to help - just give me a call.

Cheers

Zim

Will

Im really surprised you have a issue with the quality of the Dynamics, i have had 2 D40,s and a D60 and i have been really impressed with the quality of all 3. I think the build problems you are having with the D60 are getting to you   but when it done i think you will be very happy, mine flies like its on rails frontside, havent had a chance to get it around the back now daylight hours are limited.

Keep at it mate you will get there.

chris

Comon Wil    youve done a D40 and  D80 ...........get ya finger out ...............

Anybody got a cg yet?

The CG for the D60 is 62mm back from the LE at the fuse sides.

All this information btw is on the RCG D60 build thread. But I have just pulled it all off there and put it into a nice concise PDF which consists only of Joe's posts and some extra salient information.

I've just emailed it to you. Unfortunately it's too large to post on here. All D60 buyers will now get this emailed to them when they purchase, and if anyone wants me to email it to them to see what is involved in putting one together, then please let me know and I will with pleasure.

Mike Johnson has read his set now that he's picked up his D60, and his comment was that the instructions will make it as easy as a paper plane to put together! So hopefully this will help other builders as well!

Z

cheers for that rick

had seen that on the other side, but was wondering if there was some changes.

hope to finish the fuz today, and glue the wing servos once I have the servo programmer to open the flap servos.

Was feeling brave today and decided to go all the way and put 10oz in each tip. Wing now comes in at 1.4kg similar to that of my Mini dragon DS.

have the aileron linkage sorted and hope to glue the servos in tomorrow (family allowing).

need to get this bird in the air.

Still no throws posted.