Topic: Identify this WW1 aircraft please

Hello

I am tracing my family tree and came across this photo of a unknown relative and am trying to identify the aircraft type.



I suspect it is either a BE2c or an Armstrong Withworth?

BE2C looks spot on to me 

The curved tailfin makes it either a late Be2c, a Be2d, a Be2e - Be12s are out as serial nos A1261 to A1410 were allocated to the Be2, subtypes not specified in my source...

So you would rule out an Armstrong Whitworth?

It's just that the serial number doesn't look like its from a Be2?

See my modified post above. The final digit is not visible in the picture.

A137 would have been a Morane BB, which this plainly is not, seeing as it has a Be2 tailfin.

Yes - unfortunately the last digit is not visible.

So the serial could be from a Be2?

The other picture I have shows the same guy with what appears to be bad burns -

A.137 is a bit of a mystery.A-116 THRU A-315 inclusive are serial numbers allocated (200 of them) to a batch purchased by General HQ Royal Flying Corps, B.E.F France  of a number of different A/C. A-137/8 and 9 Allocted to three Morane Bi planes . ALL 200 numbers were given exclusivly to Morane or Nieuport types. Ideas anyone?......regards Ken

Ken
It looks like it is a 4 digit number - A137?

There is the possibility that we are both right, seeing as Armstrong-Whitworth did build Be2s under licence. I haven't got a list of specifically AW-built Be2 serials so can't confirm whether A137x was one of them.

Looks like your relative got away lightly with his relationship with the Be2 - they proved fatal to many.

got to be A.1377. Which fits in nicely with a batch of 50 A.1361 THRU A.1410 Built by Wm Denny &Bros of Dumbarton         Ken

PS a Be2e    BATCH     REGARDS kEN

You can just see the edge of the last digit, it has a full left hand edge that is curved at the lower end for sure. The number could be a 0 or a 6

I reckon its a Be2e

Ian.

Thanks for that - it has to be a BE2 then with possibly a serial number of A1370 or A1376- will try to get more info.

Most of the B.E.2e machines were trainers and 51 Training School had B.E.2e A.1350 on their strength. I dropped an email to their history team to see if they also had any A.137* Serial numbers on their rosta.

Is there any way of knowing his rank from the first photo?

He is a 1st or 2nd lieutenant in a standard Jnr Officers jacket.RFC. Tho it is impossible to know just from the photograph, the probability is that he joined the RFC direct and was not an army officer transfer as the tendancy for ex army types was to retain their old regimental uniforms including their headgear. This affectation carried through till wars end even tho the RFC and the RNAS were amalagmated into the RAF on 1st April 1918.Looking at the photo you get the impression that far from being a candid shot there is an element of stageing in the make up of its composition and the Be2e behind him looks extraordinarily neat, and as the A prefix was superceeded by the letter B in late 1916 and the life of a/c in those times wasnt very long may suggest a date in the mid 1916 era.The fact that the A/C was hangered also suggests that the photo was taken in the UK. All this I realise is pure supposition based on best guess or probability, but till more info comes to light thats the best we have to work on.     regards Ken

Ken - thanks for that - if I find anything else from tree relatives I'll post it up.

Please do that,its a thing I find so interesting, and I am sure so do others......Ken

Please do that,its a thing I find so interesting, and I am sure so do others......Ken

Absolutely
Mike

The latest tree find is a picture of the gravestone of my step grandfather's brother - it could be him - need to look for another photo of him

It is a sad fact that it is far easier to trace someone who died in the conflict than it is to trace a person who survived . Capt Watkins RFC died aged 61 in 1953.There is however the fact that even then on his grave marker he is reffered to as capt Walker RFC.This may well indicate he was invalided out before april 1918 before the formation of the RAF.There is no way at this time to acertain the extent of his injuries tho it is noticeable in the second photo that he is in a wheelchair indicating possible leg, or back damage.Agreed it is all conjecture, And therefore is the interest. regards Ken

This is all very interesting stuff, please do keep us informed

Another thing about the first pic. It doesn't seem to be sat on its undercarriage. It may be just the angle, but following the longeron lines and other lines in the pic, on both aeroplane and background, the nose end just doesn't seem like it off the ground much

Ian.

Ian
Well spotted - I never noticed the angle of the fuselage was wrong.

As far as i can tell he was Captain Henry Herbert Watkins who was my grandmothers second husband's brother. Her first husband, who was my grandfather, died in WW1

I have another photo which I think was Henry Herbert in later life, but I'm just not sure if it is him - do you think there is a likeness? He seems to have the same chin dimple?

This is all very interesting stuff, please do keep us informed

Another thing about the first pic. It doesn't seem to be sat on its undercarriage. It may be just the angle, but following the longeron lines and other lines in the pic, on both aeroplane and background, the nose end just doesn't seem like it off the ground much

Ian.

And there appears to be a wing stowed against the wall in the background..............  Dr Watson.......

Ian
Well spotted - I never noticed the angle of the fuselage was wrong.

As far as i can tell he was Captain Henry Herbert Watkins who was my grandmothers second husband's brother. Her first husband, who was my grandfather, died in WW1

I have another photo which I think was Henry Herbert in later life, but I'm just not sure if it is him - do you think there is a likeness? He seems to have the same chin dimple?

Lew ..... If you study the wrist of the gentleman later in life you can clearly see Keliod scarring on his wrist and back of the hand, this type of scarring results from severe burn injury, that ties in with the bandaged hands in the wheelchair pic...................

OK - another good clue. That would confirm it then as the same gentleman.
thanks.

Just wondering now if the photo of the BE2 and Henry was maybe taken after the crash/fire.

And there appears to be a wing stowed against the wall in the background..............  Dr Watson.......

That wing appears to have night fighter / home defence roundels with the white bit painted out in PC10

Ian

This may well be a BE 12b, which was basically a single seat variant of the BE 2 with a 200 Hp Hispano..... it was developed specifically as a home defence night fighter......... The plot thickens.........

Another thing about the first pic. It doesn't seem to be sat on its undercarriage. It may be just the angle, but following the longeron lines and other lines in the pic, on both aeroplane and background, the nose end just doesn't seem like it off the ground much

Ian.

It was common practice to lift the tail up by placing a saw-horse below the rear fuselage. This would be done prior to checking/adjusting the wing and tail rigging angles as they would always be measured from a standard horizontal fuselage position. As the machine is in a hangar or factory building it is possible it is undergoing such maintenance checks or has just been assembled?

This may well be a BE 12b, which was basically a single seat variant of the BE 2 with a 200 Hp Hispano..... it was developed specifically as a home defence night fighter......... The plot thickens.........

Between Ken and myself it has been established that the serial number definitely falls within a block of Be2 machines. Ken has confirmed the serial to be specifically a Be2e.

Between Ken and myself it has been established that the serial number definitely falls within a block of Be2 machines. Ken has confirmed the serial to be specifically a Be2e.

Care to ellaborate Martin, what has the serial turned out to be? Agreed on the use of trestles for rigging purposes, but the Be in the pic surely isn't on a trestle since the rear end is almost at the normal sit height with the skid on the ground. If the main undercarriage was removed, the nose lowered onto a stand, the tail would raise slightly since the skid is some way forward on the fuselage.

Ian.

It is established that the serial is A-137?. This being so "it follows that it MUST be between A-1370 to A-1379. this being so it is within the 50 Be2e serials ordered, ie A-1361 to A-1410.............indeed the earlier order, again for 50 A/C were also also for Be2e types (A-1311 to -1360) though this batch were built by Napier & Millar of Old Kilpatrick

It is established that the serial is A-137?. This being so "it follows that it MUST be between A-1370 to A-1379. this being so it is within the 50 Be2e serials ordered, ie A-1361 to A-1410.............indeed the earlier order, again for 50 A/C were also also for Be2e types (A-1311 to -1360) though this batch were built by Napier & Millar of Old Kilpatrick

It can definately be narrowed down to two machines, either A-1370 or A-1376

Ian.

having magnified the pic quite a bit, iwould go for the lastdigit to be a 6, to me it appears the centre of what can be seen seems to be slightly lower than centre on the 7, and a 0 would be on centre, sad i know but   WE NEED TO KNOW

  cj

Hi...I have put the 2 photos of younger and older person side by side and I dont think itsthe same person i'm afraid..

The biggest give away is the position of the ears in relation to rest of face..

The pilot's nose for example extends much lower than other when compared to ears (yes i know ears get bigger as u get older but look at centre of ear...)

would be good if someone could resize faces in photoshop till they match, fade one of them and then superimpose on top of other..

this is all geting a bit CSI...top thread!!

Jez

I'm thinking it is the same person, the chin features are the same. The ear thing is all about viewpoint. On the younger pics, the photographs are taken from a higher viewpoint and the head is slightly facing the ground. On the older pic the camera is much lower since you can see under the chaps chin. This will make the older chaps ears appear to be lower.

I've cropped the Be2e pic and removed the perspective, which shows more clearly the last digit. This digit goes out of shot above half way up so we can eliminate the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 and 9, leaving just 6 and 0 as the only possibles.

Ian.

I'm thinking it is the same person, the chin features are the same. The ear thing is all about viewpoint. On the younger pics, the photographs are taken from a higher viewpoint and the head is slightly facing the ground. On the older pic the camera is much lower since you can see under the chaps chin. This will make the older chaps ears appear to be lower.

I've cropped the Be2e pic and removed the perspective, which shows more clearly the last digit. This digit goes out of shot above half way up so we can eliminate the numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8 and 9, leaving just 6 and 0 as the only possibles.

Ian.

I've also tried sizing the two faces to the same size and superimposing. I think they could well be pictures of the same person, allowing for the different viewpoints. The relationship between the cleft in the chin, the mouth and the nostrils seems about spot on. The eyes/eyebrows also seem pretty close, allowing for the limitations of my attempts to precisely align the tilt of the two heads. . I agree that the apparent difference in the location of the ears may well be simply the differing viewpoints. The ears of the older man stick  out rather more and appear thicker, but that could be, firstly perspective - the shot of the older man is from closer range, and secondly the general thickening of features one tends to see with increasing age.
I'm not claiming that these two pictures are definitely of the same person, but O do think that there is a good chance that they are.
HTH
Mike

I've just sent for the service record from the National Archives which may give some more clues

Description Name  Watkins, Henry Herbert
 
Date 07 December 1892
Catalogue reference AIR 76/532 
Dept Records created or inherited by the Air Ministry, the Royal Air Force, and related bodies
Series Air Ministry: Department of the Master-General of Personnel: Officers' Service Records
Piece Watkins, Geoffrey - Watkins, P A
Image contains 1 document of many from this series

OK - I have downloaded the National Archive document and here is a linkt to it which I hope you can open

http://www.weaver19.eclipse.co.uk/Henry%20Herbert%20Doc.pdf

It is a bit tricky to decipher but it looks like he flew Be2c, d & e as well as Bristol Scout and was wounded in France

Fascinating document.

He has time on Re7s and 8s, Curtiss, presumably JN-4 trainers? Maurice Farman Longhorn and Shorthorn, and Armstrong Whitworth, specific type undecipherable, as well as the Be2 and Bristols already mentioned.

Wounded 28 days into the battle of the Somme, spoke French and German, must have had quite a story to tell.