Topic: What the hell's going on around here?

I think that the moderators on here have got it just about right at the moment.

I made up my mind when I joined the forum that I would not use the ignore button- so far, I have managed, but it has not been easy! 

Try it, it's very calming.

Steve

Such stringent moderation can only make more work for the moderators to keep on top of it all when self moderation by the posters is what is realy needed

Self moderation would be best, but to be frank if that worked the world would be a far better place, not just the forum!

How about an automatic 'report to moderators' setup that doesn't actually report it to a real person until say five presses? Maybe with a safety net that if a post gets ten reports it gets hidden until a mod looks at it?

I don't know the actual thresholds, that would be down the mods experience. The lovely lovely superbeings that are our beneficial moderators from whom all good things spring, obviously. Or did that sound too suck-uppy?

theres also a bit of a big brother effect, and i mean the TV show not the 1984 version.

we had a little community of people that all kinda knew each other and so things went on quite well.
as rcmf gets more popular you attract more people and just like BB adding more housemates it changes the balance, esp when one of the newbies is quite active, outspoken or just doesn't gel right in, it causes conflict until the new lines and pecking order are drawn
and then it starts again.

if you go with strict moderation, q&a's only you will loose those who do hang around here in more of a social capacity, and some of those are the best question answerers here
can't go with less, ever seen youtube comments!!

how about ice hockey rules, let them bash it out till ones got the advantage over the other then the ref steps in lol

having been in the middle of a fair few disagreements here  i don't let them carry on to other threads, it's a different topic, i only disagree with you there.
the mods do seem to be quite fair in letting us sort things out ourselves, step in too early and both parties are left still pent up and felt unfairly dealt with.

I am in the same boat to a large extent.  More recently I often start replying to a post, and then delete it and say to myself, "eh, what's the point? "

I've been thinking about this thread Wiz, and about other RC forums (particularly the European ones which I try to follow with the help of Google Translate).  I'll leave RCG off the list, as they have a very laid-back moderating policy, and as a result threads on that forum can degenerate into hogwash very quickly.  Most of the European forums have very strict moderation policies (esp. the German one - I wonder why ?), and they pounce on anyone going even slightly off topic. RCMF is somewhere in-between, and differs (I think, I may be wrong) in having "off topic" boards that will inevitably lead to more acrimonious discussions than the "on topic" threads.  Even in "on topic" threads, the general moderation policy can be classified as "lenient", and I understand why (as explained in the OP).

What I am getting around to saying, is that sadly, possibly a much stricter moderation policy may be the only way to go, with personal comments/slights/insinuations/ put-downs totally banned.  It may be necessary to pull back and be totally authoritarian about this for a while, and then perhaps thereafter start relaxing things to the point where a few discussions go off the rails.  That might allow for a better understanding as to where the line in the sand regarding moderation should be drawn?

Woodstock
Whilst I appreciate that you are commenting with a view to improving matters, there are two downsides to what you are suggesting.
Firstly, as has already been said, the increased workload on the moderators.
Secondly - the definition of 'personal comments/slights/insinuations/ put-downs' is going to be something of a judgement of Solomon. It may well be that one man's light-hearted banter is seen by another as an unacceptable insult. Clearly, there is a level of personal attack which is unacceptable, but my view of this forum is that most folk - in fact the large majority - recognise this and do not transgress.
Mike

theres also a bit of a big brother effect, and i mean the TV show not the 1984 version.

we had a little community of people that all kinda knew each other and so things went on quite well.
as rcmf gets more popular you attract more people and just like BB adding more housemates it changes the balance, esp when one of the newbies is quite active, outspoken or just doesn't gel right in, it causes conflict until the new lines and pecking order are drawn
and then it starts again.

if you go with strict moderation, q&a's only you will loose those who do hang around here in more of a social capacity, and some of those are the best question answerers here
can't go with less, ever seen youtube comments!!


having been in the middle of a fair few disagreements here  i don't let them carry on to other threads, it's a different topic, i only disagree with you there.
the mods do seem to be quite fair in letting us sort things out ourselves, step in too early and both parties are left still pent up and felt unfairly dealt with.

Mike

We did at one point introduce "karma" where members could effectively self-moderate another member. Once a karma score had reached a certain level, the member in question received a warning.

Don't know if you ever saw that Simpson's episode where the family all went to counselling and were all wired-up to give each other a shock?  Well it was a lot like that!

How about an automatic 'report to moderators' setup that doesn't actually report it to a real person until say five presses? Maybe with a safety net that if a post gets ten reports it gets hidden until a mod looks at it?

dunno about 5 till it gets reported, yes if it's just a few muppets grumbling about a fake vid about a hamster blowing up  but should only take one person to report a serious attack on someone

a lot of these things happen late at night when people are tired but theres not many around to step in.
what about tying in the swear filter? if theres too many words stared by the filter out like t**t, or even just stars put in by the poster themselves it could be auto flagged

more than 5 report posts could auto hide the thread it till it's looked at.

if gerry was feeling really clever the reply feature could first come up with a warning ( like it does when someone else posts while you type ) that your message contains quite a lot of filtered words, do you really want to post this.

i've written a fair few rants posts that i've then cleared and not posted. you need to write it, get the anger out, but it doesn't need to be posted.

We did at one point introduce "karma" where members could effectively self-moderate another member. Once a karma score had reached a certain level, the member in question received a warning.

Don't know if you ever saw that Simpson's episode where the family all went to counselling and were all wired-up to give each other a shock?  Well it was a lot like that!

is that what the feature was about!!

lol thats a great episode

We did at one point introduce "karma" where members could effectively self-moderate another member. Once a karma score had reached a certain level, the member in question received a warning.

Don't know if you ever saw that Simpson's episode where the family all went to counselling and were all wired-up to give each other a shock?  Well it was a lot like that!

Yep, saw that episode.

That's not really self-moderation, as being referred to here though, it's group moderation. Self-moderation is encompassed in the phrase "Think before you hit send (or post)". If you imagine the post as being addressed towards you, by the person whom you are addressing and ask yourself whether you would appreciate such a post, and post accordingly, then that's a start along the road to real self-moderation.

more than 5 report posts could auto hide the thread it till it's looked at.

This.

It would take the heat out of it without the mods having to look at every 'sir, he pulled my hair' report.

The difficulty with any automated system is that there is a wide range of people on here,from me who (I think) is virtually un-angerable, to those who get upset because a thread talks about something that isn't their specific choice. You can't auto-moderate it without either stultifying it or making it a free-for-all.

FWIW, having been on here for a year or so, I think it's done just about right. And I've been on a lot of forums and Usenet groups for a very long time, and seen the whole spectrum of posters.

Is there a sub-ban level of warning? a couple of days, or a week, in a visible 'sin-bin' perhaps, where you can read but not post?




(Also, what's happened with spacing in these posts? I put blank lines in as needed but they get doubled up when it appears in the thread... )

from me who (I think) is virtually un-angerable,

yer, think i'm a bit like that, i don't get offended, and i know most of what i put is just taking the wee, but to someone who doesn't think like me it's just an attack. i don't always manage to remember that

as a side note as to how many reports it should take, i would also think thats dependant on where it is, 1 report in the autogyro section ( sorry boys  ) would be like 20 in the pub.

Is there a sub-ban level of warning? a couple of days, or a week, in a visible 'sin-bin' perhaps, where you can read but not post?

yes, i know well 


last thought, the quick reply box. it no longer has smiles, so any quick reply could be loosing the cues as to how it should be read.
yes you can hit preview and add them, but that doesn't work in QUICK reply, it's called quick for a reason.

Also, what's happened with spacing in these posts? I put blank lines in as needed but they get doubled up when it appears in the thread... )

shush, this new template is squished up enough as it is 

I notice a few members saying that a stricter moderation policy would place an unacceptable work load on the mods.  How about we rather hear from the mods in that regard?  BTW I AM a mod, and I have no problem with that.  I don't see it being a long term drag on my time, but just an interim phase, as I described.

As to how one defines what is or is not acceptable, that's what mods do all the time, isn't it?  The current rather laissez faire approach is actually more difficult to define than a stricter "no broken windows" approach.  Less work, I would think.

umm, we've lost all that personal tag lines and stuff under our avatars, mine said a fair while ago "he's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy"
told you all you need to know really.

Is there a sub-ban level of warning? a couple of days, or a week, in a visible 'sin-bin' perhaps, where you can read but not post?

Yes, and this is what has been used, a 7 day posting ban.

I think we are perhaps overreacting somewhat, some have been somewhat tetchy just recently and I have noticed I have had to use a few more "Cool it" posts than normal, however it's rare I have had to use them anyway so a couple more is neither here or there.

I wouldn't normally comment on a specific moderation action and this may get moderated by the big boss man, but in this instance I am going to.

A post was made that was (in my view) totally unjustifiable and unacceptable, it was removed almost straight away as I happened to be reading the thread at the time, a note was left to the poster to the effect that it was unacceptable, we would normally hope that would give the poster a pause for thought and nudge them towards self moderation, in this case it didn't and it was followed up with a post that if anything was worse, so action was taken.

I notice a few members saying that a stricter moderation policy would place an unacceptable work load on the mods.  How about we rather hear from the mods in that regard?  BTW I AM a mod, and I have no problem with that.  I don't see it being a long term drag on my time, but just an interim phase, as I described.

As to how one defines what is or is not acceptable, that's what mods do all the time, isn't it?  The current rather laissez faire approach is actually more difficult to define than a stricter "no broken windows" approach.  Less work, I would think.

Personally I'm waiting to see what is said then draw my conclusions from how the members feel it should be done.

Wiz is spot on though this place is rapidly losing it's class and I for one don't post nearly as much as I used to.

There are far too many opinions and not enough solutions around here, this has been said to me by a number of members who just sit on the sidelines and watch rather than contribute as they feel if they offered a solution they would get shot down. Not a very friendly situation i'm sure you'll agree.

Anyway off to watch again

Steve

There are far too many opinions and not enough solutions around here, this has been said to me by a number of members who just sit on the sidelines and watch rather than contribute as they feel if they offered a solution they would get shot down. Not a very friendly situation I'm sure you'll agree.
  yes my sentiments too.

If a forum ever got to the stage where "too many opinions" was viewed to be a bad thing by the administration, then that forum really is in deep, deep trouble.

Especially since, in this hobby, "solutions", such as they are, are almost always  opinions and it is not unusual in asking a question of ten modellers to receive eleven opinions/solutions, because at least one modeller changed his/her mind midway through the answer.

If a forum ever got to the stage where "too many opinions" was viewed to be a bad thing by the administration, then that forum really is in deep, deep trouble.

Especially since, in this hobby, "solutions", such as they are, are almost always  opinions and it is not unusual in asking a question of ten modellers to receive eleven opinions/solutions, because at least one modeller changed his/her mind midway through the answer.

I would agree, Leccy. The answer usually comes from DEBATE....

I would agree, Leccy. The answer usually comes from DEBATE....

But a debate is at least structured and there is an outcome at the end. Here a debate turns into a slagging match and no one wins.

People used to come on here to solve problems they were having within the hobby (I'm sure Wiz will state this is why he setup the place). Now it's just a place to watch the fights and amuse oneself by putting people down not the idea of the forum in the first place.

Perhaps it's time to remove ALL none model related sections? it does seem to me these ore the ones "usually" that cause the problems?? Just an idea

Oh and before anyone suggests these are the thoughts of the admin...........no these are MY thoughts

Steve

But a debate is at least structured and there is an outcome at the end. Here a debate turns into a slagging match and no one wins.

People used to come on here to solve problems they were having within the hobby (I'm sure Wiz will state this is why he setup the place). Now it's just a place to watch the fights and amuse oneself by putting people down not the idea of the forum in the first place.

Perhaps it's time to remove ALL none model related sections? it does seem to me these ore the ones "usually" that cause the problems?? Just an idea

Oh and before anyone suggests these are the thoughts of the admin...........no these are MY thoughts

Steve

No, we get a lot of interesting stuff from the pub and other sections- take Fokkers post about his caravan, or the Maz posts about her life and times- and there many like that. You are talking about altering the forum, when its certain members who would benefit from alteration.... you are bound to find grumpy gits anywhere, I'm sure a slap on the wrist works very well!

But a debate is at least structured and there is an outcome at the end. Here a debate turns into a slagging match and no one wins.

Debate doesn't need to be structured and there will always be an outcome. Sometimes the best ideas come from unstructured debate and the interaction of opposing views. The outcome will vary from extremely valuable to useless but as long as it is done in a positive, non-confrontational way I don't see a problem. Everyone learns something - even if it is only that there are umpteen different opinions or ways of doing something!

Richard

I've just been looking at the moderation log, and to be honest there isn't a lot of moderating going on, most of it seems to be admin stuff such as moving threads to correct locations, tidying up threads and deleting pointless non offensive posts.

I think if we follow 3 simple rules we can't go too far wrong.

1 Don't set out to cause offence.

2 Don't set out to be offended as the previous poster was hopefully following No1

3 In "technical threads" don't post pointless posts.

But a debate is at least structured and there is an outcome at the end.

This isn't a formal debating society and I'm sure that nobody would wish it to be one. The outcome that emerges during a thread in which solutions/opinions/alternatives are discussed is that, at any point, the questioner can take which particular solution they prefer, or any combination of the alternatives, and adopt those. It's wonderfully open-ended and need not ave an end outcome, in a truly linear sense. That is the very essence of discussion.

Here a debate turns into a slagging match and no one wins.

Again, that reveals a fundamental problem with putting discussion into the framework of a debate with an outcome - the idea isn't that there is a winner, or an ultimate and terminal outcome. The idea is to discuss, hence these being termed discussion forums.

People used to come on here to solve problems they were having within the hobby (I'm sure Wiz will state this is why he setup the place).

I'd hope that wasn't the case, for it surely wasn't the original ethos of the forum and the existence of such things as build threads would tend to disprove that. The forum was set up to discuss lots of different aspects of the hobby. It'd be a poorer place if it were restricted to just a problem solving venue.

Now it's just a place to watch the fights and amuse oneself by putting people down not the idea of the forum in the first place.

Hardly. There are loads of threads which are not even slightly problematical and historically there always have been. Just because there are some problems then throwing out the baby with the bathwater is not appropriate.

Perhaps it's time to remove ALL none model related sections? it does seem to me these ore the ones "usually" that cause the problems?? Just an idea

It's a frequently expressed one, in any website that has an off topic discussion forum. It doesn't recognise that very often the most veherement and deepest seated disaggrements are actually in the on-topic areas. My own take is that the thing I find most distasteful is where disagreements in the former spill over into the latter. That. to me, is a very bad thing, and to be discouraged. I appreciate that is very much a personal opinion.

In proposing closing down all of the off-topic areas - which are generally the actual life blood of forum members getting to know each other - then the likelihood is that one is left with either that spill over of off topic content into the modelling arena, or a very sterile and uninteresting discussion forum.

Now it's just a place to watch the fights and amuse oneself by putting people down not the idea of the forum in the first place.

Steve

I don't see it that way at all...

Perhaps it's time to remove ALL none model related sections?

Steve

I came across another modeling forum where it was strictly forbidden to discuss any topic which didn't have trains in it!!
I'm off over to PC Help now...got a question cos I'm stuck with something  

I made up my mind when I joined the forum that I would not use the ignore button- so far, I have managed, but it has not been easy!

Try it, it's very calming.

Steve

It can also be deemed as being ignorant. 

we had a little community of people that all kinda knew each other and so things went on quite well.

One thing which would be an instant help to those outside said community would be if more people signed their first name to posts, its friendlier and a reminder that the recipient is a person too. Maybe a real name would discourage the 'curt' comments that an anonymous 'handle' attracts?   I've come to no harm by signing 'Phil'
Slowly I have learned a few names here but some I'll probably never know because they're never aired 
Its nothing more than an observation, this is a superb forum and much appreciated.
Cheers
Phil

I think I proved my point

Off to do something better 

I think I proved my point

Off to do something better 

Troll!

I've just been looking at the moderation log, and to be honest there isn't a lot of moderating going on, most of it seems to be admin stuff such as moving threads to correct locations, tidying up threads and deleting pointless non offensive posts.

I think if we follow 3 simple rules we can't go too far wrong.

1 Don't set out to cause offence.

2 Don't set out to be offended as the previous poster was hopefully following No1

3 In "technical threads" don't post pointless posts.

Could we add stay on topic, the number of times manufacturer 'A's tx is being discussed and then the thread is invaded by others spouting about their tx is best because..... If someone asks teh merits of a range of tx's fair enough but if the thread is on a specific tx then deviating to other makes should be off topic and thus moderated. This sort of thing does tend to start a bit of a flame war at times.

J

If a forum ever got to the stage where "too many opinions" was viewed to be a bad thing by the administration, then that forum really is in deep, deep trouble.

Especially since, in this hobby, "solutions", such as they are, are almost always  opinions and it is not unusual in asking a question of ten modellers to receive eleven opinions/solutions, because at least one modeller changed his/her mind midway through the answer.

Absolutely agree
Mike

Could we add stay on topic, the number of times manufacturer 'A's tx is being discussed and then the thread is invaded by others spouting about their tx is best because..... If someone asks teh merits of a range of tx's fair enough but if the thread is on a specific tx then deviating to other makes should be off topic and thus moderated. This sort of thing does tend to start a bit of a flame war at times.

J

I'd lumped that in with No3. keeping it simple!! 

. Now it's just a place to watch the fights and amuse oneself by putting people down not the idea of the forum in the first place.

Steve

Steve
Admittedly I don't read all the threads, but I do read a fair number and I simply don't recognise what you are saying as the norm, which you seem to be implying.
Mike

I deon't want to revive old arguments, but in that particular thread the OP kicked it all off by openning with the statement "the SProggisn Mk17 is the most flexible Tx ever built" and then proceding with a list of instructions that rather contradicted his openning remark. If you look at the subsequent comments made they're essentially all "I thyink you might want to reconsider that remark" rather than "No, *I'm* Sparticus!".

If he had simply realed off the instructions then the thread would never has attracted the ribald comments. So the lesson perhaps is that whilst people (me especially) need to cut down on some of the evangelism, other people who want to post factual announcements or "closed" subjects might benefit from avoiding making inflamatory statements in them!

£0.91 supplied,

PDR

talking of inflation your fee's have gone up a hell of a lot!!

If he had simply realed off the instructions then the thread would never has attracted the ribald comments. So the lesson perhaps is that whilst people (me especially) need to cut down on some of the evangelism, other people who want to post factual announcements or "closed" subjects might benefit from avoiding making inflamatory statements in them!

Come on now Pete, your being silly.

Simply mentioning a radio brand other than M*l*i*l*x seems to be inflammatory to the worshippers of the pizza box. Suggesting another brand may be better seems to be cause for stoning!!   

Come on now Pete, your being silly.

Simply mentioning a radio brand other than M*l*i*l*x seems to be inflammatory to the worshippers of the pizza box. Suggesting another brand may be better seems to be cause for stoning!!   

Try doing what I've done and putting FRSky on a multiplex.. Every time I mention anything about it there's guaranteed to be s post about how I shouldn't be doing it, I should be paying 4x the price for mpx kit.

TBH I just let it wash over me - I made an informed decision, I'm happy with it. I have absolutely no problems with other feeling differently though - it's them what can't let go until you agree with them who seem to see red.

I like it as it is, no changes needed except sin-binning the stroppy ones until they calm down.

Incidentally the banning described earlier sounds like exactly the right decision to me. Anybody who gets told off yet carries on needs time to cool off and think.

I've just been going through some old posts and those already in our "limbo" section where mod's put posts they're not sure about or need a group decision and I conclude that there are three types of post which tend to degenerate the most.  They are:-

1) My dick's bigger/better/shinier than yours and by inference, your dick's not worth having
2) Pretty much anything arising from an article in the Daily Express

All we have to do then is to respect other people's buying decisions (just because they haven't bought the same gear as you doesn't make it rubbish).  There is no point whatsoever in telling someone asking for help with transmitter X that transmitter Y is better.  If you have no knowledge of the OP subject then don't feel you have to respond!

Stop reading the Daily Express (and Mail for that matter) but if you insist please remember there are alternative viewpoints which others are entitled to.

...oh and tread lightly on subjects about the police and policing, religion and sexual orientation and we should all be able to live happily together around here.

I think it's fair to say we need to keep this whole thing in proportion.  We're doing pretty well and there's a lot that's 'right' with the forum as it stands.  What I would like to do is make it a place where the Steves and Brian Coopers are once again able to share their knowledge and experience with us without fear of flaming or the whole thing degenerating into nonsense.

Henceforth,and as a first step, I am asking the mod's to remove any irrelevant or inappropriate posts from topics in the "technical sections" as they arise - and that means pretty much anywhere outside of "the pub".  Sometimes  smilies are an appropriate response and sometimes they aren't.  It's easy to tell.  We are also quite good at letting a topic run, even though it may meander as long as it stays 'interesting' that's fine.  We will be more vigilant in the "scale modelling", "Construction" particularly as some excellent build threads have been virtually destroyed by "nonsense posts" in the past.  One member abandoned his build thread because of this and that's a real shame.

Otherwise, let's get on with it!  Thank you.

what was the 3rd type? anything posted by cactus? 

I've just been going through some old posts and those already in our "limbo" section where mod's put posts they're not sure about or need a group decision and I conclude that there are three types of post which tend to degenerate the most.  They are:-

1) My dick's bigger/better/shinier than yours and by inference, your dick's not worth having

We all saw yours last year at Winterton, 

Smilies are important, but using the most appropriate one is even more important. 

Come on now Pete, your being silly.

Simply mentioning a radio brand other than M*l*i*l*x seems to be inflammatory to the worshippers of the pizza box. Suggesting another brand may be better seems to be cause for stoning!!   

That may be a perception, but if you check through my non-MPX-specific posts (and exclude those that are clearly just banter) you'll find that I actually promote Frsky quite a lot, and often mention that there's little to chose between the major brands.

Besides, all the best religious books make clear that an honourable follower must respect the culture and practices of the natives when journeying through primitive and less-enlightened lands...

PDR