Topic: Hawker P1091 EDf Build

Foam roller for the flow coat definitely the way to go.  I can’t start finishing-off yet as I have some DIY to crack first, but should make some progress this w/e as I think it will only take 45 mins to rub down all the surfaces ready for filler-primer.  In the mean time I have glued on the canopy latch and made good the join-line.  I stuck clear tape to the hatch and with it in place forced Plastic Padding Chip & Dent repair paste into the gap.  This stuff goes “green” in about a minute so you have to keep a good eye on it, but just before it sets to the first stage I popped the hatch to leave a neat line.  After another 3 minutes it is hard enough to cut with a sharp blade and sand flush to the fuselage with coarse paper, finishing off with fine as the Plastic Padding fully cures.  A little cleaning up of the fuselage edges, a dusting of grey primer on the hatch and job done.

Everything rubbed down and then the fin and spine epoxied to the fuz – I still have to glue on the elevons.  The pilot was painted and glued in place followed by the canopy.  Once the glue had set the rear portion was cut off and attached to the fuselage.  All joins have been filled and I’ll be able to give it a coat of filler-primer tomorrow morning.

Sprayed with primer-filler before the GP, left to dry and harden until this evening – most the paint will be sanded off later to get a good, smooth surface for painting.  I am even happier with the results of using the roller: the only place that has been highlighted as needing some corrective work is the corner of one of the intakes.  I made a jet nozzle from a chilled dessert pot and then found a spare one from a box of dead Phase 3 F-16 bits which fits perfectly. 
I found an image of a Sea Vixen in a target towing scheme and am now undecided again on which colour scheme to do. 

that primer/filler looks like spray on putty which is v good but v heavy..........lots and lots of sanding i think

I just got the scales out and a new 400ml can of grey primer weighs 390g, red primer 370g, White primer 295(!), the yellow filler-primer weighs 380g and an empty tin weighs 113g.  I have no idea how much of that is solvent which obviously evaporates.  From experience, to get a good durable finish using the minimum of top coats a primer coat is a must, so IMHO unfortunately a necessary hit.

It weighed 908g before rubbing down and 903g after.

Hi Pete,
She is looking very business-like and well done with the rapid progress.  I too am applying primer-surfacer - white - and spending time sanding most of it off again: happy days!
Paul W.

Don't forget to post some pictures of your 1121 Paul 
It will be decision day on the paint scheme tomorrow, probably get it sprayed when I get home from work. Still looking 0k for 1.3kg all up.
 
Pete

Thanks Pete,
I certainly will post some pics but that'll be a few weeks yet: it is the Sealand that is getting the paint - having decided to go for a glass/spray finished hull.  The Shorts factory closes now for a few days for a trip to Devon; then back to it!
Paul W.

Intake has been made good and the whole airframe given a final wipe over with fine wire wool and the dust removed with a tack-rag.  Elevon horns fitted, 3mm push rods made and covered with a thin plastic vac-forming.  Balsa sheet fairings glued to the fuz at the elevon roots and sealed with dope.  Weight now 944g no battery.  Am undecided whether to try and make some cooling vents over the ESC and fit some air scoops from plastic spoons, but other than that it is ready to paint.  Thought I had settled on doing the red scheme this evening, but my mate Harry not too keen and as the Viggen ESC has had to go back for replacement I do actually have more time to get the airbrush out and do a more involved paint job.

Looking good Pete 

What pilot bust did you use? I dawned on me that I need a wee manny to sit in the meatbox cockpit before I staple the lid on 

Neville is a J Perkins one:
http://www.jperkinsdistribution.co.uk/detail.php?JPNO=5508393&activepage=1&Navmain=Accessories&subcatname=Pilots

But I think he is too small for your Meteor.  You mIght find something from Pete's Pilots:
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/Petes-Pilots

Pete

On the way home this afternoon I decided that as this one never even made it off the drawing board it could easily follow-on from Neville Duke’s F3 record breaker as a company project so it can have the same colour scheme.  I masked the cockpit and sprayed it Audi Laser Red.  I have started on the fuselage with the intakes hinge lines, cockpit area and edges.  That is now drying before I tackle the main surfaces tomorrow.   As I can’t do anything to the Viggen for a few weeks I decided that I would modify the CAD work I did for this one to create  a passable FD2.

It is very red! I accidentally did the underside when I checked how the previous spray was drying.  Now overnight whilst I do the decals.

Top surfaces now red too.  How long should I leave it before I try to polish out some of the overspray? 
Compare with the FD2 above.  It has been pointed out that I can’t build it though because I only do British aircraft that never flew ......................and then don’t fly the model either

Hello Dizz,
Will it have landing gear?  Is the fan not accessible for maintenance?  Please send pictures of how you make decals.
Thanks,
Albert

Hello Dizz,
Will it have landing gear?  Is the fan not accessible for maintenance?  Please send pictures of how you make decals.
Thanks,
Albert

No landing gear.  Hopefully hand launched, but there is the option to add a tube for a bungee pin should it need some assistance (I beefed up the inernal structure in the appropriate place during build).
No, fan built in, hence the testing I do during build these days to make sure everything is sound.  The last one I went to the bother and extra weight of adding a hatch for access was my EF-16 Block II and it was never used.  I do know exactly where to cut the fuselage to get at the fan should I ever need to though.
Decals for the P1091 cut from Solar Trim using a compass cutter 6" rule and scalpel for the roundals and fin flashes.  The lettering done using my vinyll cutter.
Pete

Construction and finishing is 100% complete ready to wait a year or 2 before flying in keeping with the other ones I have done.  As they are models of aircraft that never flew I think I should get maximum scale points for operating them in a 100% prototypical fashion.   
Weight with 60C 3200 4S is 1334g, static thrust 1140g, efflux velocity 136mph, T:W=0.85.  Weight with the 40C 2600 4S is 1264g, thrust 1010g and 131 mph efflux, T:W=0.80.  The SEAC air speed-o-matic calculating engine predicts 120mph straight and level on the 2600 pack which is down on what I was hoping for but still reasonable I think.  I have 2 new 40C 2600 packs on order so will see if they make a difference.

Forgot to say that I bought some Auto Glym car polish this morning and used it to remove the slight overspray.  Also the empty weight of the airframe s 968g = 24g for red paint, decals, nozzle and some Velcro.
Anyway, with the P1091 done and unable to progress the Viggen at the moment I have started designing a Fairy Delta 2 (I am reading Peter Twiss’ book “Faster Than the Sun”), a definite winter build project though.  This morning I also started on a Phase 3 EF-16 Block III to replace the sadly departed Block II (awesome crash though  ).   Obviously I’ll do all the intake efficiency mods and strengthen the rear end more than the Block II: don’t want the tail plane coming off in flight do we?    

Can't do anything about the intakes now, but I might be able to smooth out the last 3mm of the exhaust nozzle to blend in the 1/64" step from the ply thrust tube.  Will see how it flies first though.

Hi Pete,
At those sort of speeds I'm glad you chose red..!  She certainly looks the part.  What wing loading have you finally arrived at?
Paul W.

I'll work it out in a minute, just taking a break from re-arranging my garage so I can fit a storgae system for my roof box.

I now have another spread sheet
 
Conventional wing area (extend LE and TE to fuselage centre line and take the fuselage area too) is 22.3 dm^2.
Wing loading 57gdm^-2. on the smaller pack 60gdm^-2. with the heavier pack. 
Interestingly the West Wings Hunter spec claims a wing area of 15.4 dm²and a weight of 1200g = 81.2 gdm^-2.
A stock Phase 3 EF-16 is 12.6dm² and 609g = 55.2 gdm^-2.

................so my P1091 looks pretty good actually   
even if I say so myself

What are you contemplating doing next Paul?  It is going to be a dangerous time for me this evening watching a DVD and thumbing through the Secret Projects series, Hygate, etc

Hello Dizz,
I worked on my P-47 a bit today.  Used some car grade bondo (a sandable product for auto finish).  It has been very humbling experience.  How wonderful your product turned out is truly inspiring for the beginner.
Keep us posted on the maiden.
Albert

Cheers Albert 


My modified hunter fuselage fits the FD2 profile with only a few mods needed to accept the smaller wing.  The wing area is only 16.1 dm² which is quite a reduction.  As the weight will stay pretty much the same, it will obviously have to be bungee launched.  The wing is only 5% thickness and has an extra rib and some additional 3mm square span-wise support for the skin.
Must resist CNC cutting the parts on Tuesday.

Hi Pete,
That reads as 20 oz per sq ft? Lots of delta area compared with the standard hunter wing: she should handle well. 
You are not allowed an FD2 by your own reckoning then - as it actually flew..?!
I've got several projects on screen at the moment - probably explains my slow progress.  Given our very similar build-lists, I'd probably better not breathe any further words, even though  the next one on my build list is an unlikely candidate - even for you!
Paul W.

Afraid for some reason I never got to grips with Imperial (causes much frustration doing CNC stuff for Stan because he only uses imperial!).  However by the magic of another spreadsheet (attached) I agree, 19.6 ozft² for the heavy pack.  I intend first flight on the 2600 pack though, hopefully the end of the week when I'm down in Cornwall and I can have Fist's assistance for chucking and trim altering duties.  BTW, my Iwata touch-up spray gun arrived yesterday so I can at last move on and get a coat of clear KlassKote over the P1121 to protect the paint.  That prompted my to finally order some 40C 6S packs for it, so that could be flying at Weston Zoyland on 20/8.  Will you be going to Woodsprings on 21/8 for the E-Fly?


Anyway, there was a proposal to make the FD2 into a Carrier-borne interceptor.  So if/when I get around to building one that is what it would be - and obviously it never flew: QED     In the mean time I have 2 fun fighters that I really must finish painting,etc to take to the Nationals.


"the next one on my build list is an unlikely candidate - even for you!"
In that case I reckon you must be thinking of something for the FAA - SR1A?
Will speak soon


Pete

Cornwall - end of the week?  Does that mean we might see it at Redruth?
 

Cornwall - end of the week?  Does that mean we might see it at Redruth?
 

Yep! 
 
Does that mean you will be there too?

Yes mate - Cosford can mangae without me for the week

Hello Dizz,
In reply photos of #80 above.  When you were removing the automotive grade padding and filler material what type of sanding techniques did you use.  I mean in general when one gets to the point just before appling the grey filler from a spray can, what is the best way to lesson waves on the surface just before one applies the grey filler?  Again, did you use sanding blocks of a certain width or a certain technique.  I am working on my P-47 and have what looks like a bad case of acne.  I am not worried about it but when the work is in good light it really stands out.  I am thinking using padding filler applied over the acne, if you will, and sanding it.  I am thinking about using a hand sander about 8" long and 2" wide and sanding so the automotive grade filler is almost nearly all removed and filling the small pock marks that appear like a bad case of acne scars on some poor individual.  What do you recommend at this point.  I have glassed the airplane and sanding does nothing to the fiber glass and that is a good thing.  Then I will paint with primer filler and sand again.  Again, this is purely cosmetic but I have to improve it a little if anything to gain experience for later work/builds.  The padding filler comes in a large tube and is white and some are red and some are grey like you used and is very easy to sand.
take care,
Albert

Afraid for some reason I never got to grips with Imperial

Hi Pete,
Decimetres were not in general use 'when I were a lad' or indeed when I was teaching in metric later: areas in dm thus not quantifiable-by-use for me.  I use a mix of both systems, Imperial and Napoleonic, simply to suit the job. Helpfully, I certainly have a pretty exact notion of one square ft with 20 ozs - 1.25 lbs - sitting on it. Most model loading information still seems to use this system too?
In CAD, I use metric. Age and education are the most likely suspects for this mix, which works for me.
I will be hoping to be at WW for the E-Fly.  You too?
Paul W.

Took it with me to Redruth (top w/e btw) fully intending to get the first flight in, even had an internationally renowned pilot willing to fly it , but in discussions on Saturday evening it dawned on me that I wanted to re-check the C of G position and that I really should do a couple of mods first.  In the end the weather conditions were totally unsuitable on Sunday so the temptation was removed and I now have a few days to effect the changes before another attempt on Friday.

As a “blind test” I asked a couple of people to show me how they would hand launch it and all found difficulty in getting enough grip on the limited amount of fuselage to hold to be able to give it a decent chuck in the right direction.  I am considering adding some wet and dry paper grip patches or, more likely, drill into the hard point and fit a brass tube for a bungee launch.  I’m a fan of bungee launches because they are so consistent and predictable, although the first one is always rather exciting.

I had based the control throws on the Squall, but everyone thought that there was too much movement so I’ll adjust and alter the dual rate differences.
 
I have spent an hour recalculating and cross-checking the C of G position and will mark the acceptable range on the model later.
 
I want to move the satellite antenna further forward into the nose and the main RX back into the fuselage (to give more battery space for C of G adjustment).  To do that I'll have to make a longer lead. 
 
Finally, not much air can pass over the ESC and after a run you can actually feel the heat radiating through the fuselage above the heat sink.  Fix for that will be to add some cooling air intakes and exhausts.

I'll post a few photos when complete.

Hello Dizz,
In reply photos of #80 above.  When you were removing the automotive grade padding and filler material what type of sanding techniques did you use.  I mean in general when one gets to the point just before appling the grey filler from a spray can, what is the best way to lesson waves on the surface just before one applies the grey filler?  Again, did you use sanding blocks of a certain width or a certain technique.  I am working on my P-47 and have what looks like a bad case of acne.  I am not worried about it but when the work is in good light it really stands out.  I am thinking using padding filler applied over the acne, if you will, and sanding it.  I am thinking about using a hand sander about 8" long and 2" wide and sanding so the automotive grade filler is almost nearly all removed and filling the small pock marks that appear like a bad case of acne scars on some poor individual.  What do you recommend at this point.  I have glassed the airplane and sanding does nothing to the fiber glass and that is a good thing.  Then I will paint with primer filler and sand again.  Again, this is purely cosmetic but I have to improve it a little if anything to gain experience for later work/builds.  The padding filler comes in a large tube and is white and some are red and some are grey like you used and is very easy to sand.
take care,
Albert

Hi Albert,
Sorry for delay in replying - I have been away.
I cut the majority of the excess off with a sharp blade whilst it is still "green" in that hard rubbery phase.  Once the filler has hardened more I use some pretty coarse wet and dry paper (240 grade, used dry) on a commercial rubber sanding block to get the correct shape.  Then I leave it for a couple of hours to fully harden and then use the same rubber sanding block buit with fine grade papers to get the final finish.  After spraying with primer and rubbing back there are impefections to fill I apply more filler - either more plastic padding or if only small holes, etc then light weight modelling filler (spackle). Sand it back again, another dusting of primer and should be good for the overall coat of primer or undercoat as the base for the top coat.  Sounds as if it will add lots of extra weight, but I reckon 70% of the primer appled is turned into dust.
Cheers
Pete

I will be hoping to be at WW for the E-Fly.  You too?

Am certainly planning on being there Paul.  I will bring some toys if they survive Saturday at Weston Zoyland, but I'm not booking in to fly.

Took it with me to Redruth (top w/e btw) fully intending to get the first flight in, even had an internationally renowned pilot willing to fly it , but in discussions on Saturday evening it dawned on me that I wanted to re-check the C of G position and that I really should do a couple of mods first.  In the end the weather conditions were totally unsuitable on Sunday so the temptation was removed and I now have a few days to effect the changes before another attempt on Friday.

Does this count as a refusal and 3 faults? I was looking forward to watching one of your creations fly as the skill and quality of your builds always impresses, but you do like to leave us avid watchers in a breathless state of anticipation as to how they fly.
Still at least you do not adopt my cross fingers point it at the distant hedge, mutter well here goes nothing, followed by a bit of a tremble, followed by thinking I built it, so I know I can do it again if need be, and then hurl it at the scenery with all my might and good deal of prayer power. Results have not always been perfect shall we say with scratchbuilds. I think I stand at 5 and 2 the 2 being the not so good. I built a small very low powered brushed EDF Meteor that I eventually got to fly quite well but was difficult at the best of times. The first launch saw it decide to go vertical which was way beyond its abilities and while I managed to get it down without too much damage, it was not a good start. My own fault I gave it a all flying tailplane so I could just pivot the fin, nice and simple, but trimming it was a bit super critical.
Best of luck on Friday.

Does this count as a refusal and 3 faults? I was looking forward to watching one of your creations fly as the skill and quality of your builds always impresses, but you do like to leave us avid watchers in a breathless state of anticipation as to how they fly.
Still at least you do not adopt my cross fingers point it at the distant hedge, mutter well here goes nothing, followed by a bit of a tremble, followed by thinking I built it, so I know I can do it again if need be, and then hurl it at the scenery with all my might and good deal of prayer power. Results have not always been perfect shall we say with scratchbuilds. I think I stand at 5 and 2 the 2 being the not so good. I built a small very low powered brushed EDF Meteor that I eventually got to fly quite well but was difficult at the best of times. The first launch saw it decide to go vertical which was way beyond its abilities and while I managed to get it down without too much damage, it was not a good start. My own fault I gave it a all flying tailplane so I could just pivot the fin, nice and simple, but trimming it was a bit super critical.
Best of luck on Friday.

Not really, more a postponement due to weather. 
 
The extra tweaks aren't really essential and I'm sure Ali would have had no problems with it if we had got that far, but as I now have chance to do the work I might as well (on leave now  ).
 
Following what happened when we tried the SR177 (C of G and thrust line issues) I'm very wary now and won't comit to anything unless I'm 100% happy.  I suppose I need to man-up and get on with flying them!  However I'm also stuck for suitable flying sites around Brixham and someone I trust to help me with the trims on that first flight / leap into the unknown: the opportunity to fly them just doesn't arise very often in the first place.
Anyway, I have a good plan for a major crashing session at Redruth this coming Friday with the SR177, M52 and P1091: hopefully this unsettled weather will clear away by the end of the week.  Plus there is a first back-up at Merryfield next Sunday, and back-up number two before the JMA w/e at Weston Zoyland 19&20th.
The P1121 still needs a coat of satin KlassKote to seal the matt enamel paint and decals, but that will happen in about 10 days when I fuel proof the 2 fun fighters which working their way down the production line (I have even treated myself to an Iwata touch-up spray gun specifically for the job).  Therefore Weston Zoyland beckons for the Huriccane II.
 
To the workshop.......................................

New battery packs arrived yesterday afternoon – 2 x 40C 2650mAh 4S for the P1091 and 3 x 40C 3000mAh 6S for the P1121.  The 2650 pack weighs 325g and fits the battery bay nicely.  I have changed the plugs around to follow my convention and they are now on charge.  I will test them in the model this evening. 
Cooling holes cut in the fuselage skin ahead and astern of the ESC – the intakes aren’t directly over the heat sink, but they are better than nothing.  ESC cooling intake and exhaust scoops made from cut-down small plastic spoons care of a café break whilst out walking Guinness Dog.  I am hoping that forward speed will force air in around the ESC and a low pressure area behind the exhaust spoonsvents will help draw the warmed air out again.
Satellite rx lead a “cut and shut” job from 2 spare short leads soldered together and supported by heat-shrink.  This allows the rx to be placed further inside the nose and the main rx 1/2” further aft.  Both held in place with Velcro pads. 
For comparison I checked the C of G on my Squall and the quoted range in the instruction booklet works out at approx 19-23% MAC.  I fly mine towards the rear mark, ie approx 20.5% MAC.  I have marked the P1091 17-22% MAC and can achieve both limits with any of the 3 possible packs by moving them forward/rearward in the battery bay. 

Are we there yet, are we there yet? When will we see fly mister? Will it really do a 100 miles an hour, really truly?

Are we there yet, are we there yet? When will we see fly mister? Will it really do a 100 miles an hour, really truly?

Nearly 
Still maybe this Friday (if the weather is ok).
I'm sure it will go quite a bit faster than 100mph