Topic: SAS Venom or Zagi Si?

My young son wants a Zagi-type slope soarer - should I get him the SAS Venom or the Zagi Si?

http://www.freewebs.com/sasepp/Venom.htm
http://www.jperkinsdistribution.co.uk/detail.php?JPNO=5500285&activepage=1&Navmain=Aircraft%20-%20ARTF%20&%20Kits&subcatname=ARTF%20-%20JP

I had a Zagi a few years ago and had a lot of fun with it but have never seen a Venom. I've heard good things about the SAS range, though, and the Venom is all EPP where the Zagi is EPP/EPS.

The Venom is about £20 more expensive but has carbon spars.

So, which should I get?

Thanks.

Richard

Edit: He wants an 'unbreakable', easy to fly slope soarer, not for combat.

Personally, I would get the fusion 46. I would also consider an SAS Wildthing 46. With a fuselage you will find that you can actually fly, rather that float which you will do with the zagi.

I learnt with the WT and is still the plane I chuck off first on an unfamiliar slope or dodgy conditions as a test. They are are great plane and perfect for your requirements.

Venom ticks all the boxes - a great plane to learn on, and still good for later - very aerobatic & manoeverable . I've modded mine without the fuselage & control rods run bottom to top mounted horns, which makes it even slicker (though the fuse is good when learning, as you've got something to hold on to when launching).

Details

 I expect someone will come along & suggest a SAS Wildthing too... (doh - I must be psychic, Jimbo  )

I've never flown a Zagi, but have seen some (slightly) negative comments though I guess it's all very subjective.

I would go for one of the SAS models over a Zaggi. You dont say wether you sons a competant flyer, If he is then the Fusion and Venom seem to fly a bit quicker than the Wild Thing. If he isnt then I would suggest the fus on a Wild Thing or Fusion really does help with orientation. All three fly brilliantly and you have the added advantage that you can ring Mr Head with any questions hes incredably helpful. My only warning is watch your phone bill!

The jpsi is not fully epp. Just the leading edge, as you say - the eps starts to degrade after a lot of hammer. Poor model even by zagi standards.

Get him a Wildthing 46 - he'll love it
(so will you!)

Phil.

I think the comments above are right a the jpsi is not the one to go for
My son hates my fusion , summit about not looking cool ? Where as he loved the look of the jpsi , what i am saying is , ask him which of the sas models he likes the look of , both the venom and fusion are good models and there is no point getting a model he won't fly.

Lee

true, kidz eh. need a clip round the ear, that's what!

Even if you want to get a chevron I think there are better choices out there than the jp-si - not least the venom.  The jp-si works by using eps to make it a rigid structure, rather than the spars you need in more flexible epp models. While it's fine in theory the recesses for the nose weight etc start to cave in with a lot of stick.  Big crashes, which you might expect from a learner, will start to take their toll on it.  Personally I thought it flew like a pig's arse as well.

To be honest I think the Irvine Xit/Windrider Bee are a better option than either the Zagi or the Venom, mind you the model to fly in our club in school (11 - 18 yr olds) is the Weasel EVO a number of our kids have had these as their first models after seeing sirs, not really ideal for combat but an absolute blast to fly and a massive flight envelope wind wise. With clever use of strapping tape you can increase the dingproofness without adding to much weight - you also have the bonus of it being backpackable 

how are the belly pans bearing up?  TBH I thought it was a fairly catastrophic design flaw for a foamie!

Flying Wings Slipstream is simply awesome.

Plus 1 on the Wildy 46.

It was the model I learnt to fly on. They are really stable, strong, & stay up well in light winds.

The fuz & fin also help with your bearings, over say a zagi type wing.

+1 on the FW Slipstream , there not that good at combat though ( ask adam lol )

Lee

how are the belly pans bearing up?  TBH I thought it was a fairly catastrophic design flaw for a foamie!

The fins seem to be getting more knocks with the kids, the newer belly pans arent as good as the initial batch from the states, I think on mine it was polycarbonate - its a shame we couldnt have taken a cast of an uncut one and vac formed spares on the vac former we dont have at school

+1 on the FW Slipstream , there not that good at combat though ( ask adam lol )

Lee

Slipstreems Kick ass!! I have a freshly built one ready for some Lundy Domination!! Failing that ill just fly it into your broken finger

  Seriously tho the slipstreems fly in next to nothing and i fitted a ballast tube which holds 1.2kilo of ballast and it just loves it, 

Seriously tho the slipstreems fly in next to nothing and i fitted a ballast tube which holds 1.2kilo of ballast and it just loves it, 

1.2 kilo! 
Must make a nice additional spar though. 

Another firm vote for the Slipstream.............I have two.............

Just got back from Mill Hill, West Sussex, flying the ballasted twin spar super stiff "DS" version...........magic........

To be honest I think the Irvine Xit/Windrider Bee are a better option than either the Zagi or the Venom, mind you the model to fly in our club in school (11 - 18 yr olds) is the Weasel EVO a number of our kids have had these as their first models after seeing sirs, not really ideal for combat but an absolute blast to fly and a massive flight envelope wind wise. With clever use of strapping tape you can increase the dingproofness without adding to much weight - you also have the bonus of it being backpackable 

I have a Bee (X-it) and a Bee Evo, and a Weasel Evo. I've also flown a WT 46 and combatted a fair bit against a Venom.

The Weasel is a good general plane, and you can get more belly pans off EBay. The Wildthing is bigger and a better glider in slightly higher winds, I think. The Bee is excellent, the Beevo is tougher and faster but not so good in very light air as the Bee. The Bee2 should be as tough as the Beevo for combat (internal pushrods, full-width carbon spars etc.) but with the fatter light-air airfoil of the Bee. The Venom comes between the Bee and Beevo somewhere.

I had a FW Raven (smaller electric cousin of the Slipstream) which was not at all robust, not really a beginners plane at all. Don't know about the Slipstream directly but a mate had one and binned it when he got his Bee.

It may be a good choice for the better pilot though, if you're going for speed and bigger aeros but not close-in combat.

Thanks, Guys, some really useful discussion! 

He has decided he wants a Wildthing 60 so one is winging its way to me as I type. While talking to Alan I ended up ordering a Fusion 60 for myself - I have no idea how that happened, SWMBO, honest

Richard

The 46 flys better and has a wider wind  sped range.

The 46 flys better and has a wider wind  sped range.

I have both, 46" and 60" Wildthings. I also have Slipstreams (2) , FW Hawk, several custom derivatives loosely based from the Hawk, Mk 1 Alula (2), old FW Buzz and Buzz Lightning core customs, a "plank" built from "FW Storm" cores (all as unpowered Slopers).   Oh, and a JW60! In all 15 slope foamies.

While I agree to a large degree the top statement if working from an experienced pilots perspective, it may work to his advantage as the 60 is inherently much more stable and tolerant of setup.  Later on he can fairly easily modify by trimming and reshaping the tips of the 60 to a 46 (or so). I have seen and flown one cut to 50" and it worked very well indeed.

So, 60" it is then............ 

When I spoke to Alan and explained the need he said that they would all fly very similar and I should let my youngster choose what he liked the look of. He chose the WT60. I felt that was fine because he is a beginner (one or two power lessons, no slope experience and lacking confidence). We'll probably only fly in relatively light winds so he doesn't need the higher wind speed capabilities and the lower wing loading and higher aspect ratio of the 60 should make it a better low wind plane.

And as Bad Raven says, we can always trim them down if/when we feel the need.

Oh, I think another aspect of the 60 he liked is it will be taller than him!

Richard

Oh, I think another aspect of the 60 he liked is it will be taller than him!

If I say "but not for long", it'll cover ALL eventualities!! 

 

If I say "but not for long", it'll cover ALL eventualities!! 

 

Absolutely! 

Richard

Just thought id mention that the zagi si is no zagi. It looks like one, but it sure as hell dosent fly like one. In fact it barely flies at all. It was my first model, and the guys at my local slope, bless them, spent hours and hours trying to get the damn thing to fly. Its longest flight was about 40 seconds, after trying every possible combination of throws, cg positions, coverings. I eventually gave up and got a widthing 46 after someone at the slopes took pity on me and let my fly theirs for a bit.

I really would stay away from the zagi si. But it looks like youve been recomended lots of far better models already.

You are so right! My middle son bought a new in box Zagi at a club bring-n-buy a while ago for a tenner. When he got it home we discovered that it was a genuine US fully EPP one. Unlike the Si ones I had years ago it stays up in a breath of wind and is very easy to fly. It was his first experience of slope soaring and he was competent in about 5 minutes!

I had forgotten, until you reminded me, just how different it is to the others!

Richard

Hi RGN,

I`m glad to see that you opted for a Wildy in the end.

I`m sure that your son will be really pleased with it when he gets to fly it. I am still a bit mythed how they are so stable in flight, & the one I had before (46) often did an odd pivoting waggle as it would settle into a hands off level flight?

One thing that I would advise is add an extra strip of cw tape (about 3" long) to each side of the fuz, directly beneath the wing leading edge. It is by no means a weak spot, but I reckon it would have saved my fuz breaking when I piled mine in at great speed.

Do update us on how he gets on with it.

Thanks, Nimbus, I'll do that with the tape

Do you mean the front of the tape in line with the LE, or the back in line with the LE?

Richard

When I spoke to Alan and explained the need he said that they would all fly very similar and I should let my youngster choose what he liked the look of. He chose the WT60. I felt that was fine because he is a beginner (one or two power lessons, no slope experience and lacking confidence). We'll probably only fly in relatively light winds so he doesn't need the higher wind speed capabilities and the lower wing loading and higher aspect ratio of the 60 should make it a better low wind plane.

And as Bad Raven says, we can always trim them down if/when we feel the need.

Oh, I think another aspect of the 60 he liked is it will be taller than him!

Richard

Youll have a both have a blast. Enjoy. They are a nice little plane. I would recommend them wholeheartedly.

Once you have mastered the WT, upgrade to an M60

M60? I'm sorry I don't know what that is - and Google returns links more suited to my eldest son's trade

Link, please?

Thanks

Richard

M60? I'm sorry I don't know what that is - and Google returns links more suited to my eldest son's trade

Link, please?

Thanks

Richard

http://www.t9hobbysport.com/item.asp?catid=102&subcatid=204&prodid=573

They are like a WT, foam but a lot more fun.

M60? I'm sorry I don't know what that is - and Google returns links more suited to my eldest son's trade

Link, please?

It's by North County Flying Machines, NCFM. They do a lot of fast wings.

http://www.t9hobbysport.com/default.asp?CatID=102&SubCatID=204

Thanks, Nimbus, I'll do that with the tape

Do you mean the front of the tape in line with the LE, or the back in line with the LE?

Richard

Hi again,

I`ve just looked at my new one, & it`s a bit confusing now that I`ve put the wing on lol.

I think what might be better still, would be to cut a couple of 5" lengths of cw tape, or perhaps longer, & have them running along each side of the fuz, so that 2.5" run back from the leading edge, & the other 2.5 running forward of the leading edge.

As I said, it is by no means a weak spot, but I know of 3 of us that have piled them in at great speed & taken the nose off, & it may just save a bit of hassle, but I`m talking 25-30mph winds here lol.

Have a look at the 2nd article down. http://www.eastsussexsa.co.uk/pages/members_corner.asp

As I said, it is by no means a weak spot, but I know of 3 of us that have piled them in at great speed & taken the nose off, & it may just save a bit of hassle, but I`m talking 25-30mph winds here lol.

I've done the same with my Weasel Evo a couple of times.

Again, strong winds and ballast, so not really a 'weak spot', just a weak pilot.
 

Thanks, Guys, for the suggestions - I'll do that to the fuse

Richard

Another thing, dont listen to Alan Head about ballast, if its blowy strap on the church roof. Flys nicer when you up the wing loading.

Thanks 

Is that strap on outside, or do you build in a ballast tube?

Richard

Get hold of sme roofers lead if you can. Cut a strip the width of the fuse and a's long a's you like. Then stick it on with tape over the CG underneath. I tend to leave the ballast on. Flys better with weight. Don't try it though until you mastered it's handling though. A's with ballast it will be exponent difficult to keep flying in the sink as the WT has the aerodynamics of a brick.

Get hold of sme roofers lead if you can. Cut a strip the width of the fuse and a's long a's you like. Then stick it on with tape over the CG underneath. I tend to leave the ballast on. Flys better with weight. Don't try it though until you mastered it's handling though. A's with ballast it will be exponent difficult to keep flying in the sink as the WT has the aerodynamics of a brick.

Thanks.

Richard

Large box arrived today and youngster and I spent an enjoyable hour or so preparing one wing (glass tape and servo done). Other wing tomorrow - and maybe finish it.

Impressions so far - good quality, very well packed, lots of work done already (e.g. fuse is largely assembled and even the corner radius done - and where it joins the wing it is faired in).

Looking forward to cracking on and seeing it fly!

Richard