Topic: English Electric Canberra B(I)8

It's got more wing area than you can shake a big stick at, so it'll carry whatever weight it's asked to. It's really just a question of how steep do you want it to climb? 

As I recall, the real thing had, shall we say, a sedate rate of climb....

So I believe. The PR9 was a strong performer at sea level but the rest apparently weren't. I read that the T4 was a pretty useless trainer too, as with the bomb rails and other guff removed it was significantly lighter than the bomber variants. So much so that the crucial single engine training was ineffective. Due to the large asymmetry they got with an engine out, V_mc was a long way above take off speed and needed the live engine throttled back a long way to stay under control. The T4 could just about climb with the live engine throttled back to maintain control, but if you tried to apply the training to a front line variant even unarmed you were only going downwards 

The B(I)8s and PR9s look a bit smaller with the fighter style canopy I think. The other ones look somewhat larger to my eye.

Nice aeroplane though 

I have an excellent book in my possession called "RAF Jet Bomber Flypast" by Philip J R Moyes from 1974.  It has quite a good section on the Canberra. I was going to offer to send you it to look at but I typed its ISBN into Amazon and its still available for only £1.99!!

 http://www.amazon.co.uk/Royal-Air-Force-Bomber-Flypast/dp/0711004994/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1327266502&sr=1-1

Ian

Bought 

The PR9 was longer than the bomber variants and had an extra 2 foot wingspan and boasted twin Avons so about 22500lbs of thrust and an all up weight of 55,000 lbs. Sevice ceiling was in excess of 60,000 feet and possibly as high as 75,000. I remember being a bit in awe of it when I was 14 and in the CCF as it was just as capable as the U2 in terms of ceiling and the RAF didn't have a Gary Powers incident. The USA were so impressed with the Canberra that they built their own modified version the Martin B57 under licence from English Electric.

But I guess we all probably know that so apologies for the verbal diarrhoea.

Lots of mass produced aeroplanes, cars etc were successfully drafted by hand long before people started using 3D CAD to make up for lack of ability to visualise 3D objects from 2D drawings.

I can confirm that we designed Concorde with no CAD whatsoever. All done on Mylar with plastic pencils.  Some of the electrical/electronic circuitry was done on some sort of mechanised system but nothing which would resemble today's CAD.
 This gave us problems with the CNC machines which were very new then.  It meant that all the parts had to be test made in soft metal as inevitably the CNC machines were not correctly programmed first (and probably second) time around.
The ONLY computer we had to use for the Stress calculations was the company IBM 360 which was bought to run the payroll and we were allowed to use at night when it was otherwise idle.  It ran on stacks of IBM punch cards - please don't drop a stack ......  The output from the programme to check the stress calcs on the engine bays alone produced an output on continuous paper which was 36 feet high ........  The "good old days"!!

Looks like there will be a halt in the progress of both models, partly because my wife went into labour around midnight but more importantly because I exhausted my CA glue supplies last night.

 

The walk worked then 
Hope all goes well.

Pete

Looks like there will be a halt in the progress of both models, partly because my wife went into labour around midnight but more importantly because I exhausted my CA glue supplies last night.

Slowing the delivery with cyano to realign it with the model-building diary is a technique that is frowned-upon by the majority of gynochologists, but it shows innovation and a correct sense of priorities...

:-)

Hope all goes well with the delivery!

PDR

Good luck mate, hope all goes well.

Thanks Gents,

After the drawn out affair that was my first daughter's birth, this one was remarkably efficient, if a bit late.

Labour started at 0000hrs, accelerated through the bath test at 0215~0245hrs, into hospital for about 0400hrs having woken my mother up at 0300hrs to cash in on her offer to mind the older daughter, and delivery was at 0726hrs using paracetamol for pain relief. I was rather impressed with Gill!

They're both fine but have to stay in 24hrs for observation. Shelby is still at her grandmother's, and I'm about to eat something then go to sleep. Cheers, Jamie

Congratulations Jamie. 

Hi Jamie,
Congratulations to you both!
Paul W.

Congratulations to all of you!
Mike

After a few hours sleep I decided to take Shelby, who's almost 2 years old, in to meet her new sister. I think she took the news of a new centre of attention well. I half expected her to announce "No Penny" then "Penny go away" as she does with most things that aren't Peppa Pig, Rango or chocolate 

Congratulations to you and all your family.

And congratulations from me too Jamie.

Best lay off the Canberra for a day or so (anyway the Cyano's delayed in the post no doubt )

Alan

Congrats Jamie to you and your family; Another helper too! 

Well Jamie

It just goes to prove not only do you make excellent small planes, but you are also proficient in the small human department as well.

Many congratulations

Nigel.

Congratulations Jamie

My 2.5 year old granddaughter far prefers Peppa Pig to her baby sister.

Alan

Well done you 2 what a cutie    Just brought back the feelings when my 2 were born rather overwhelming in a good way 

8oz of Zap to order from Phil - Check 
A lorry load of 1/16" and 1/8" balsa to order from SLEC - Check 
1/2 sheet of 0.2mm Proskin - Mick Reeves emailed. Never dealt with him before. Is he quick? 

I have found Mick to be quick no problems there 

You forgot another item for the list

4) Lorry load of nappies

Haha 

We've been stocking up on newborn sizes for a while. Our first daughter has been in reusables since 5~6 months when she decided she was having solid foods. Certainly keeps the cost down 

Just trying to think if there's anything I can do without any CA  I've got the Meteor canopy to be getting on with, but that just involves big long waits for primer to dry before sanding and re-priming. Yawn...

1/2 sheet of 0.2mm Proskin - Mick Reeves emailed. Never dealt with him before. Is he quick?

Hi Jamie,
I too have always found him very reliable with orders.
Paul W.

He's replied already 

Just been going through the rest of the kit trying to identify what everything is. all the patently obvious parts such as wing ribs are numbered. All the slightly tapered, random lengths of balsa are not, meaning they need to be compared to the plan to identify them. In a similar fashion to the nacelle crutches; long shapely parts that you might want cut out, the fuselage crutches are not included and I'll need to cut those by hand. By contrast, the tiny little tail bumper which you could make from the smallest scrap is included - useful! Since I moved the hinge lines to the scale shape and position, quite a lot of the laser cut wood won't be used. Infact, only the tail ribs (assuming they fit) and the fuselage formers (assuming they fit) will be used. The rest is useless to be honest. Fuselage crutches would have been nice to include, since they're large, curvey and it's built in two halves so you need two sets of them. At least if I cut them myself, they'll fit.

Overall this is a fairly well thought out model. The actual plan isn't very good though. I couldn't say at what point in the process it's all gone wrong but few of the drawn parts match different versions of themselves. For example, the small tailcone is to be laminated from balsa and there's a scrap view on the plan showing how it was done on the prototype. This doesn't match the actual fuselage side elevation above though, and yes, this insignificant little collection of parts has been lasercut using the scrap view and as such is another waste of balsa.
I think in hindsight the kit wasn't a good investment and I couldn't recommend it to anyone now. It does give me motivation to design my own Canberra though.

The ribs on the outer wing panels will need extensive fettling before the skins can go on. Looking down the span they're all very different in size/shape. Lesson learned...

Hi Jamie,
It is annoying to say the least, to receive a kit of less-than-useful parts.  The original flew well and I recall having a very close look, at what was a very well executed model, with its designer/builder.  Have you tried talking to whoever cashed your cheque? 
Paul W.

Not yet Paul.

I thought instead I'd just crack on with it and list everything that's wrong with it, then feed it all back to Key Publishing in one go. I don't feel especially out of pocket with this, and I know I can identify problems and address them, ultimately ending up with a model which I'm confident will look the part and fly well. 

I haven't seen the model fly, but I did visit Chris at his home in Devon and saw the model in the flesh. It looked good. With a bit of sorting out this would be a great model for mass consumption, not least because it's an affordable jet model that looks great and won't need lightning reflexes or miles of paved runway to fly.

If I were at the distribution end of the deal, I'd take a list of problems more seriously than a drip feed of little niggles. Hopefully they'll take (constructive) criticism well. Perhaps not, as it'll mean most of the labour intensive bit of the kitting will have to be re-done.

I managed to find a teeny weeny bit more CA, so cut and fitted the hinge spars. These are cut from 1/4" medium balsa as per the plans, only in a different place. The rear spar needed to be sawn off at a taper before the aileron hinge spars could go on, again as per the plans, just at a different angle:



Then the whole lot could go together and the tip ribs added. Leading edges needed next, then a lot of work levelling the ribs.

I've got next to nothing done recently, due as much to one pointless illness after another, mostly. Still feeling rubbish but today I got a little done. Having gone to the trouble of moving the hinge spars, I wanted the overall impression of the flaps to be a bit more convincing. The plans version is fit for purpose, and they are split flaps as per the real one, but I thought I could maybe do a little more work around this area.

This is the real thing:



Versus what's on the plans:


On the image above, the scrap of paper below the plan is the trailing edge riblet I drew from reference to photographs and a 1/48 etched brass detail set by Eduard:


So I cut out the trailing edge ribs for the centre section and glued them on. After finishing the first side, I realised they were all upside down, so removed them and started again.  Also in at this stage are the Proskin intake ducts, and the fans and motors are in. They're needed for installing the exhaust ducts, which will hopefully be tomorrow, along with the trailing edge ribs for the outer panels of the wings.

Got the riblets for the outer panels drawn up today. This took a wee while as they're unevenly spaced and vary in spar depth by around 0.5mm each, and in total length by 3~4mm each (as compared to each one's neighbours).

I decided it would be safest to draw the shape of the panel I was trying to create, draw the hinge spar against it, mark on the desired spacings between ribs then use measurements from these to draw up the ribs themselves. Fairly tedious to be honest, but I think it'll be worth the tedium in the end.

I'm finding it hard to get things done at the moment for obvious reasons, but all those riblets are now fitted to the trailing edges. I think it's quite important that I finish my business inside the wings as quickly as possible then get the skins on, because these aren't going to last long in this state!

I think it's quite important that I finish my business inside the wings as quickly as possible then get the skins on, because these aren't going to last long in this state!

By "in this state" I presume you mean "intact and in the kitchen". Wives tempers can do a lot of damage...

PDR

Well it does rather dominate our humble dwelling if that's what you're getting at 

I'm off to investigate prices and availability of RDS kits as a potential option for eliminating external control horns. I need to decide soon how I'm going to drive the ailerons because I want to get those wings skinned. I'd be interested in ideas for bomb drops too. I don't think the SLEC ones are any use because the Canberra has pylons without much room inside and the SLEC ones appear to need a linkage coming in horizontally.

Hi Jamie
I followed your recommend on another thread and have ordered some Proskin for a Supermarine Attacker I have "accidentally" acquired  ,
What glue have you used on your intake ducts?  Mick recommends Gorilla type, but I have a 760mm seam to glue on the thrust tube, so foaming polyurethane is not a suitable option.  Am thinking about medium or thin Zap cyano.
 
I have high hopes for this stuff, certainly much cheaper than 1/64" ply and the shinny finish should help efficiency too.
Cheers
 
Pete
 
 

Hi Pete, I think Gorilla glue would be good if using it as he intends - such as a wing skin onto wooden ribs. On the Cranberry I just used medium ZAP to join it to itself and to glue it to the plywood structure. You've got to glue it in short lengths or the CA runs out and glues your fingers to it etc, but that's no different to the care you need to take when gluing rolled 1/64" ply and the like. It cuts nice and easy too.

You basically just need to score the shape you want and it cleanly snaps out - much like working with plasticard 

Cheers Jamie
It took 2 hours but I managed to roll a thrust tube.  I cut a 6mm wide strip, glued it to one dge and then taped it up as a tube.  I ran thin cyano down the join a few inches at a time and............ta-da!
Will get it fitted in the Attacker tomorrow.  Same vintage as the Canberra, but only in Sevice half a Dog Watch vice half a century+!
Pete

Lovely! Got any more info to share? Span? Stumax clearly... Was it scratchbuilt or from a published plan etc?

A tail dragging jet would be a good giggle to ground handle 

Lovely! Got any more info to share? Span? Stumax clearly... Was it scratchbuilt or from a published plan etc?

A tail dragging jet would be a good giggle to ground handle 

Am at work right now, will start a thread this evening.
Fisty has a Supermarine 510 destined to get a P60 (I think) - he had better stick to tarmac with that one 
Pete