Topic: Half Pipe and New stuff help

I have read some of the new stuff threads and there still seems to be many ways to do it

I was thinking X Weave, new stuff and paint
Is there any real need for Light weight filler, Goop and spray glue ??
never really got the light weight filler thing as the X weave tape gives you the same finish either way

little help please, just want a light weight racer and occasional sports flyer

Hopefully Phil Phiza2 might be able to advise you, as he did a 1st class job on his LE Fish, & I remember 1 fella thinking it was a mouldie.   

Hi Allen,

There are indeed any number of ways to skin this particular cat and it largely depends on whether you are after a quick and dirty (but effective) job or a nice cosmetic finish.

For quick and dirty the Devon crew just lam film straight onto foam and add solartrim or vinyl for a bit of colour and orientation. TBH there's not a lot to be gained in terms of strength and stiffness by doing more than this if you are using 10 mil (250 miron) lam film. (7 mil or 175 micron lam film is the legal thickness limit for racing though.) Thinner grades of lam film could be applied straight to foam for a lighter finish if a stiffness compromise was acceptable. Your talking about a light wind plane, yes?

Two possible approaches for a posh finish would be:
(in order)
1) filler (optional) - crossweave - Lam film - breather layer (tissue sprayed on with 3M77) - then Pro-film, or...
2) filler (optional) - crossweave - Solartex - Lam film.
I haven't tried the latter but have seen it and it looks good and is less hassle than 1) above. I think I might try it next model. 1) can certainly give that "almost a mouldie" look but repairs become a bind.

A few further comments:

I was thinking X Weave, new stuff and paint

It's hard to find a paint that will stick well to lam film and not crack off if it flexes.

Is there any real need for Light weight filler, Goop and spray glue ??

Filler only if you're after a really fine finish. Goop can add strength and resilience but coating the entire wing with thinned goop is not strictly neccessary (I like to soak a good bit into the LE to toughen up the foam however). Spray glue definitely helps coverings like Solartex and Profilm to stick to EPP and crossweave. (Don't forget to clean the release agent off the crossweave either by light sanding or preferably wiping with solvent - I prefer xylene or toluene.)

never really got the light weight filler thing as the X weave tape gives you the same finish either way

The filler will definitely help yield a finer finish if you want one. BTW I like to mix in a little PU glue with the filler to make it less crumbly. You don't need much PU but you have to then work fast as the mix will go off like crazy. Maybe 5 mins pot life. I also like to iron my crossweave on. You have to be very careful not too do this too hot. Just hot enough to soften the glue and ever so slightly shrink the tape. You will then notice an improved surface finish if you have fillered plus the tape will stick like bu99ery.

little help please, just want a light weight racer and occasional sports flyer

How light do you want to go? I would go for minimum crossweave (just a 2" strip along the LE maybe) and maybe 5 mil (125 micron) lam film. What you gain in lightness you lose in stiffness and strength. The choice is yours. If I was really going for light I might ditch the lam film and substitute Pro-film, in which case I'd be tempted to do the filler thing to stop the texture of the foam showing through so much. Not sure how much of this could be applied to a half pipe though as this is not really a light wind foamy.

Doubtless other people have their own preferred ways but the above comes from my own experience of producing foamies for racing and DS.

Steve

Would the same finishing techniques be sutible for a PMP Wannabe, I have one ready to cover and would like to make it legal to race. Never used Lam film before.

Would the same finishing techniques be sutible for a PMP Wannabe, I have one ready to cover and would like to make it legal to race. Never used Lam film before.

I love the old phoenix wannabe 
from what I understand It will work great but doing the fuse seems like a waste
but Im sure someone with more expo will chime in

The film is from abo (non directly) so It will be race legal, I think its 125mic

I will race in 60" and take on hols/test new sites etc

this is my plan for the HP
from what I hear they dont need weight to fly in blow ??

Looks are not important, just fast and versatile

So you would advice for fast and dirty:

Lam straight on to foam, no goop or spray and a little orientation colouration ??

I love the old phoenix wannabe 
from what I understand It will work great but doing the fuse seems like a waste
but Im sure someone with more expo will chime in

I was lucky enough to get hold of an old kit, want to keep it light, but still finish it of nicely and get some experience with Lam film.
Inclined towards, crossweave, solartex and lam. Im used to working with solartex and like the stuff.

From what i understand Al, its still best to mist with 3m77 before the film is applied. I think there is some sort of database thread on rcg.

Did my Polecat with 3m77 then 175 lamfilm,another mist of '77 and Profilm straight on top,this gave a strong smooth tough finish-no fuss.

Did my Polecat with 3m77 then 175 lamfilm,another mist of '77 and Profilm straight on top,this gave a strong smooth tough finish-no fuss.

Plus 1 for that Andrew
I would Crossweave tape the centre section and the LE, then rub the tape down with 400gt w&d Dry, just to take the shine off.
Light mist of 3m77 then your 125 lamfilm then pro film straight on top.
Job done.
Ronnie

Did my Polecat with 3m77 then 175 lamfilm,another mist of '77 and Profilm straight on top,this gave a strong smooth tough finish-no fuss.

I did my HP similar, minimal x weave, 3m, lam film, 3m, covering. Or was it covering then lam film? either way works TBH.
 The film I used is a bit thick tho, bought off someone either on here (not Adam) or BMFA. Does the job but was a pain to shrink in a couple of places. Over enthusiastic use of the (wife's) iron melted a bit of the foam. How much it affects the model I don't know but it bounces well...

I did my HP similar, minimal x weave, 3m, lam film, 3m, covering. Or was it covering then lam film? either way works TBH.
 The film I used is a bit thick tho, bought off someone either on here (not Adam) or BMFA. Does the job but was a pain to shrink in a couple of places. Over enthusiastic use of the (wife's) iron melted a bit of the foam. How much it affects the model I don't know but it bounces well...

Lam film shrinks with modest heat?
Not realised this; though have to hand  plenty of various sizes of new stuff & an M60 wing to cover.
Hadn't expected to shrink it.

As Rocket Ronnie said, best way.... . Lam film straight onto epp will delaminate after a short while. After spraying 3M, let it go dry before covering
Lam film doesnt shrink that much, after iron has run over the area, follow with a cloth to press/hold down whilst the adhesive is still soft. this helps.

As Rocket Ronnie said, best way.... . Lam film straight onto epp will delaminate after a short while. After spraying 3M, let it go dry before covering
Lam film doesnt shrink that much, after iron has run over the area, follow with a cloth to press/hold down whilst the adhesive is still soft. this helps.

Thanks.
Any other suggestions gratefully received - I read all the threads when this was a hot topic, but the grey matter needs a top-up.

Thanks.
Any other suggestions gratefully received - I read all the threads when this was a hot topic, but the grey matter needs a top-up.

Something I do is tape the whole wing in crossweave, at 45deg, the bottom at 90deg to the top, not much added weight, but it makes the toy more durable with Ronnie about. 
If a conventional Fuz is being used then doublelayer the tape and even tripple it in the nose area

Also worth noting that there are many varieties of lam film. Some is softer and some more rigid. Some types have loads of effective adhesive, some have a thin coat of weedy stuff.

I have been fortunate to have a stash of various thicknesses of the US made stuff from Laminatorwarehouse.com. (I say fortunate, I had to import it so paid the price!) This was the "original" New Stuff unearthed by Karl Decker who set the whole lam film thing off in the states a few years ago. They do 2 fundamental types: DI which is stiff and CP which is more flexible (still makes a stiff model though) and has a small degree of shrinkage under heat. I do mean small though. None of these things shrink like pro-film. The stuff Abbo sells looks to me to be the same as, or actually is, the CP variety. It seems to be good stuff anyway.

WRT sticking directly onto foam; perhaps it would be wise to coat with thinned goop first or 3M to get a better grip. Also it depends on the surface finish of your foam after hot-wiring. I have had some of the quality German white EPP (Hei-tec.de) which, when CNC cut developed a crisp outer shell of melted foam. The lam film didn't like sticking to that much. To the black Linpac stuff cut by hand it was much better.


Steve

I have been experimenting with photograph pockets directly on to foam with a misting of 3m spray and then profilm on top, Tried it on a very old Wild Thing wing and was pleased with the results. Can someone direct me where to get the correct lam film before I start covering my Wannabe please.

I have been experimenting with photograph pockets directly on to foam with a misting of 3m spray and then profilm on top, Tried it on a very old Wild Thing wing and was pleased with the results. Can someone direct me where to get the correct lam film before I start covering my Wannabe please.

Abbo's your man
He'll be lurking on here.
ABBO     ABBO where are you.

Ronnie

To keep the weight down on the model, I cover the balsa elevons and fin with some very thin Lam film, it stiffens them up a treat...I got this thin stuff from ABBO
Abbo Ronnies calling you....

Yeah, mine shrank a bit but not much. Just had a bit that wouldn't stick. and I turned the iron up a little too much.
Goes around wing tips well with lots of little cuts.

Just pulling down the covering of a 60" half pipe to recover.
It was well filled. Then may have some goop or 3m77 and tape for 2/3.

I think it had too much filler because when I pull the tape off, there is a powdery dust coming off.

Pland is to strip sand and rebuild.

May run some carbon down the drag spar for extra strength.

Probably spary with 3m77, single tape, 3m77, then .....
maybe tex , lamfilm
                                 or
                                     Lam film tex.

I have done tex over lam fim, as it goes on well.

I have seen lam film over tex, and it whitens where you dont have good adhesion, and there is always some spots even done by some of the better builds.

I do have some pro film I wouldn't mind using, and some balsa lock to try.

Anyone tried Balsa lock. It should be like cover grip and similar products.

Will

Who hasn't played with foam for a while.

Now do i use 125, 175 or ..... 250 lam film? Hmmm do I want to race it. I just DS it.  Have loads to do before I get there.

175 lam film an race it....That will keep Ronnie pleased 

Do you lads ever use pva? in place of goop.
Seems to do the same thing with none of the smell.

As I said the half pipe I am re covering has loads of filler, and I just added some more to the places where it has come out (Leading edge) So what I was thinking is the PVA would go into the filler and hope to make it a bit more secure.
I am hoping to sand most of it off in my next session, but I had it a bit of a sand now and it does have goop on which doesn't sand well at all.

250 is a bit of a pig to work with. It's hard to heat it enough to stick well but not overheat and damage the foam. If you want that sort of weight of covering, I would consider 125, straight onto foam, then tape, tex, then 125 again.

If I was doing the (unfinished  ) Polecat again, that's what I would do.

Z

DI which is stiff and CP which is more flexible

any idea if the DI grade is available in the UK?

I've thought it might be a good substitue for Mylar when bagging stuff

250 is a bit of a pig to work with. It's hard to heat it enough to stick well but not overheat and damage the foam. If you want that sort of weight of covering, I would consider 125, straight onto foam, then tape, tex, then 125 again.

If I was doing the (unfinished  ) Polecat again, that's what I would do.

Z

is two layers of 125 race legal ??

No I don't think it is. but tbh I don't think that a model of that weight would be much use as a racer anyway.

Z

any idea if the DI grade is available in the UK?

I've thought it might be a good substitue for Mylar when bagging stuff

I've wondered about that too and have used it for bagging small components like elevons for foamies, for which purpose it worked well enough. Unfortunately I've not seen the DI type stuff sold anywhere in the UK. I believe "normal" bagging Mylar is 350 mic. The 250 DI is quoted on the laminatorwarehouse.com site as being 175 mic of film and 75 mic of adhesive so you're looking at mylar of half the normal thickness (and I believe this film IS actually mylar). Perhaps it would be good for smaller wings with awkward compound curves. Not sure if the surface smoothness would be of equivalent quality to the "real thing".

Check http://www.laminatorwarehouse.com/film.shtml and follow the links. The DI is trumpeted as UV resistant the CP doesn't mention UV.

BTW before anyone gets excited the EPP60 rules specify that the 175 mic thickness of the lam film permitted includes the adhesive layer so no, 250 mic DI laminatorwarehouse film is not race legal!

Steve

Here's a useful build thread with lots of discussion on lam film techniques for different applications from the "master", Karl Decker, himself:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=955480

Steve

Do you lads ever use pva? in place of goop.
Seems to do the same thing with none of the smell.

As I said the half pipe I am re covering has loads of filler, and I just added some more to the places where it has come out (Leading edge) So what I was thinking is the PVA would go into the filler and hope to make it a bit more secure.
I am hoping to sand most of it off in my next session, but I had it a bit of a sand now and it does have goop on which doesn't sand well at all.

Hi will
I used to use pva ontop of the Epp, it works great, adds a bit of weight to the model but not too much.
Ronnie

Hi Ronnie,

Does PVA dry a bit too hard to be race legal? I recall a few years ago that Matty covered his HP60 in brown paper and PVA, did a lovely job and then had to strip it all off again because it was ruled too rock hard to be legal. It wasn't my call at the time but I felt it was the right, if unfortunate, decision. Maybe it stays flexible enough without the brown paper?

Steve

Hello Steve

I think it does stay very flexible when dry.
For me the point is only to seal the wing and the filler, so dont really want a layer on there.

think of when you was just a lad and pulled if of your fingers after it had dried.

May give it a go. Have goop, but no thinners. also stikns out the ours and removes brownie points.

Its well known that watered down Pva is used to seal plaster walls. Perhaps it would work for filler too. If I recall it was 5-1 water-Pva mix.

Hello Steve

I think it does stay very flexible when dry.
For me the point is only to seal the wing and the filler, so dont really want a layer on there.

think of when you was just a lad and pulled if of your fingers after it had dried.

May give it a go. Have goop, but no thinners. also stikns out the ours and removes brownie points.

Will, following final fill & sand, I'd give it a couple of coats of syrupy TG with a decent drying spell between.
I have toluene & could bring a bottle full to our next fly meet.

Would seal the filler & help resist it returning to powder under the covering when knocked.
(This is how I've done my old HP, which awaits recovering).

should I externalize the aerial or just bury in a bit of old snake sleeve ?

Hi Ronnie,

Does PVA dry a bit too hard to be race legal? I recall a few years ago that Matty covered his HP60 in brown paper and PVA, did a lovely job and then had to strip it all off again because it was ruled too rock hard to be legal. It wasn't my call at the time but I felt it was the right, if unfortunate, decision. Maybe it stays flexible enough without the brown paper?

Steve

Hi Steve
 Pva is like rubber when it is dry, so i would think it race legal its like copydex.
I used to use copydex all the time but its got a bit pricy.
Ronnie

any idea if the DI grade is available in the UK?

I've thought it might be a good substitue for Mylar when bagging stuff

Your now thinking along my lines there Paul.
I have a reel of LamFilm and plan to use for bagging up smallish wings.
I just need to find a decent vacuum pump now.
Was thinking about hand held jobbies (Plenty on ebay if you need to extend your Johnson !)
Any ideas ? (I know its off topic )
Jon

Your now thinking along my lines there Paul.
I have a reel of LamFilm and plan to use for bagging up smallish wings.
I just need to find a decent vacuum pump now.
Was thinking about hand held jobbies (Plenty on ebay if you need to extend your Johnson !)
Any ideas ? (I know its off topic )
Jon

get an old fridge compressor Jon and set it up with a gauge and pressure switch. I know people have used the hand held things but if you can set a system up that looks after itself then life is simpler. Let me know if you want any details of my set up.

PM Sent Paul

Your now thinking along my lines there Paul.
I have a reel of LamFilm and plan to use for bagging up smallish wings.
I just need to find a decent vacuum pump now.
Was thinking about hand held jobbies (Plenty on ebay if you need to extend your Johnson !)
Any ideas ? (I know its off topic )
Jon

I've tried using Lam film as Mylars, prob I had with it is that it curls up, a real pain when you are trying to tape it up, better to get some real stuff.
A for a cheap vac pump have a look here
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=966524&highlight=telos
lots of guys have used them, it seems an ok system.