Topic: Cheap Electric Racing!

Hey Guys,
Just wanted to let everyone know about a new race class we are hoping to start. It's called EF1 and it consists of scale electric models that use all off the shelf, affordable equipment.

Here are the official rules:
http://www.nmpra.org/rules/EF1NewRules_5_%5B1%5D.pdf

The models use:
4 cell 2500 lipo's
Nmpra approved outrunner motors, e.g. (http://alshobbies.com/shop/lookupstock.php?pc=42194)
60 amp speed controllers

This is what the NMPRA has to say about the class:
"EF1 is a racing event for radio control airplanes powered by electric motors. The event is intended to be easy to get into, available everywhere, reasonably priced and using off-the-shelf components to create the maximum amount of fun."

We really want to emphasize on the fun element of EF1, everyone at the race days are as helpful as possible and we all want everyone to do well. The models are great fun to fly when your not racing them, and there's a really wide range of models, kit or arf.

E-flite Pogo: http://alshobbies.com/shop/lookupstock.php?pc=41733
E-flite Shoestring: http://alshobbies.com/shop/lookupstock.php?pc=48278
Nemesis Kit: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1385632
Little Tony Kit: http://www.supertrc.com/details.asp?ProdID=67&category=14

All components can  be ordered through your local model shops!

There will be around 9 race events occurring throughout the summer months, and will run along side the already established F3D, and F5D races at RAF Wittering and Barkston Heath. We have an optional practice day on saturday, and race day is sunday!

If anyone has any questions, don't hesitate to ask and I'll reply as soon as I can. So... any takers??

P.s. I hope nobody minds me posting this here instead of the pylon section, but I think it might get a bit more notice here.

Here's a really large thread will any info I'v missed if you can be bothered trawling through it!

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1178471

Shoestring 15e ARF by E-flite

Trouser tent material!

What a super little model! Pylon looks set to have a heck of a year in 2012!

Z

There is a contigent in the UK that have already built EF1 models. They are ex racers, they have also started a EF1 Uk thread on RC groups which has died off a little. We asked them if they want to race with f3d and the likes but they were keen on going alone. I'm not sure whether anything came of this.

I have been following the movement of EF1 and the dutch lads like it, the yanks absolutely love it!

I'm just struggling with the use of the word "cheap".

PDR

No no no what are you doing  . First of all you re-start club 40  that I always fancied a go at but I dont do oily motors anymore so no can do 

Now this - and i've already got an eflite Pogo 

Oh dear 

I'm just struggling with the use of the word "cheap".

PDR

Me too- especially when using the name "E-Flite" in the same sentence.

A £67 outrunner is not cheap in most peoples book! At least in E2k they use a Turnigy motor and a much cheaper kit.

You dont have to use the E-flite motor - I believe you can use the Turnigy SK 1250kV motor 

E2k is cheap, but the models are fugly and it's not really racing if there is only 1 or 2 competing. I raced it in the first season when there was 4-5 people doing it and although iirc I won the league, it's just not same as racing against 10-20 guys.

As for Ollie stating that it's cheap racing, it's very cheap compared to the only other electric class that races on the big course. An F5d setup would cost £600-£1000 to be competitive and none of it is off the shelf stuff at you local shop, not even the props.

Nice looking models!  A much better option than E2K, as Duncan hit the nail on the head regarding the looks of those models!  I hope the class takes off.  PDR - its all relative!  Cheap may be the wrong word - this class should be less expensive than any other form of racing where the models don't look like bricks (Club 2000 and E2K are thus automatically excluded from this comparison)!

Yep,

The setups I'v shown are just an example, there are cheaper alternatives available. As for models, if you don't fancy shelling out for an Eflite model there's loads of kits out there. And the best thing about them is you can fly them easily and have a really good time at any club site! Why not get a few club mates racing with you! 

A full list of approved equipment is here:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1417305

E2k is cheap, but the models are fugly and it's not really racing if there is only 1 or 2 competing. I raced it in the first season when there was 4-5 people doing it and although iirc I won the league, it's just not same as racing against 10-20 guys.

E2K had 4 entries at almost every meeting last year with 5 competing at the Nats. Ugly or not, the models are identical to C2000 (currently and historically over the last five years the most popular class of pylon racing in the UK).

In what class, other than C2000 are you going to be racing against 10-20 guys?

F3D, which cancelled a meeting last year due to a lack of entries will on a good day next year be able to muster 9 that I can think of.

F5D, Darron will be racing his mate, that'll be two.

Q500, none.

Q40, I doubt we will see much activity there.

C2000 with the ugly models, 15-20.

E2K with similarly ugly models will see a minimum of 6.

EF1, seeing wil be believing.

Sport 46, would be good to think that this will attract some regular entries.
 
Whilst I wish all classes every success it must be remembered that we have seen this sort of closed season "activity" before, only to discover that when the new season started it was the ones that made the most noise that stayed the furthest away.

Cheap racing is a contradiction of terms, there is no such thing. You can spend whatever you want on any of the classes in the pursuit of success.

Merry Christmas
 
Stu
 

They certainly look like "proper" pylon racers rather than overpowered trainers.....

So to help me not have to go trawling thru pages and pages from the other threads which plane and motor has proven to be the the most popular (ie the "best" in the opinion of the majority)?

One problem I could see is that race after race of identical ARTFs could begin to get a bit boring - let alone confusing for the pilots and scorers.

Bottom line is that I'd like to try flying one - and I'd want it to be competitive IF I decided to try competing.

Thats a great way to look at it!

I think the standard setup will be:
Model: E-flite Pogo or E-flite shoestring
Motor: E-flite power 25 1250 kv or Turnigy SK35-42 (cheaper alternative)
Speed Controller: Any 60 amp that can handle 4 cells
Battery: Any 4 cell around 2500mah with a high discharge (over 25c)
Prop: Rules dictate a 8x8 Apc-E

All setups that follow the rules will be competitive!!

I have been thinking about the problem of all the models being the same, I don't think it will be  a problem for the pilots, you'll hardly blink in the race!! But the marshals might have a hard time, I will be talking to the Americans who already have this class running very succesfully. It might be the case that large fluorescent stickers are given out that can be applied and removed on race days. This is how a world championship competition works.

Believe me, when your racing round the poles, it wont be boring!!

Stuart E2K hasn't had 6 competitors since its first year. E2k has had 3-4 entries per meeting this year with only 3 UK entries at the nationals. Last year mostly you were the only competitor in E2K, apart from the nationals where you were joined by 3 international competitors.

You are missing the whole point to EF1. Te idea is you can go into your local shop and pick up an artf and turn up racing with a competitive model out of the box. Yes the fugly models are slightly cheaper £75 kit for an E2K arf compared to £100 EF1 but they don't look like racers and obviously don't grab the attention of club flyers mainly i'd say due to the looks and availability.

I'm just struggling with the use of the word "cheap".

PDR

I agree.  I got involved with karting in the early 60s which was supposed to be cheap motor racing 'just for fun'.  That didn't last long and a guy who used to service our car a few years ago gave up Karting and went to Formula Ford because it was cheaper!

I used to race 1 metre model sailing yachts with a boat I scratch built myself.  the 1 metre is a 'cheap' class that you could easily spend over £1500 on a competitive boat.  It was fun but I still spent over £150 on sails. 

As soon as the word competition comes into the equation, with the best will in the world  it brings in expensive at the same time. Never the less I wish the class all the best and I hope it's successful and provides a lot of fun for as many as possible.

Geoff

With the rules as defined EF1 is a "battery" event - the best batteries will deliver the most energy and win. To compete with any seriousness you'll need two current airframes, and given that the rules mandate wooden structures with film covering they will have a limited life (especially in a "runway" environment). Whilst the Turnigy is a viable alternative motor it's only intermittantly available. To compete (given the time available for recharging at race meetings) you'll need several packs (probably at least four). You'll be driving these packs at a constant 20-30C, so they will also have a limitted life. Replacing four 4s-2500 40+C packs a couple of times a season isn't cheap!

PDR

want a fair event?
you turn up and rent your plane

there are airframes, and batterys, a lottery picks which airframe and battery you get.
fit the RX and go race.

I still think to get the numbers up you'd do better racing stock EasyStars....its not ultimate speed, its about being faster than the others. No matter what you're flying.
They also have the added benefit of being cheap and anyone can fly them. Repairs are easy as well.
The attrition rate of any form of racing would still put me off spending serious money just to "have a go". Which I would like to do.

Gordon

One way to limit the cost of racing is to adopt the rules used in stock-car racing.  They say that the winning cars have to be available and sold at the end of the season for a price fixed at the season start, to anyone who wants to buy.  So, if you do outspend everyone else to win, you risk your competitors acquiring your model at bargain price and flying against you next season.

Pete you won't need 4 packs of lipo's, in F5D for the last two seasons I've used 3 packs and at one meeting only had 2 packs and didn't have any problems turning around the packs between heats, although 3 packs allows time for cooling before charging.

meharibear the models are stock, there are 2 choice of motors and despite what PDR says about lipo's, it's going to be far more of an advantage being able to fly around the pins than any lipo's make is going to give you. Paul could fly on any cheap horrid lipo's and still beat most people using the best money can buy. This class is going to be about thumbs rather than wallets!!

For gods sake don't compare it to karting, although its a damn sight cheaper than the 120k it is to do formula ford British championship these days

easystars?? dogfighters..
everything is standard leccy equipment
i wouldn't call 4s popular, everyones got 3s 2200's

Its true that the costs of any competition can spiral out of control. But one of the key aims of this class is to stop that from happening.

I've put together a cost effective but competitive setup to get racing, it will hopefully be attached as a spreadsheet. You will  already have many of the components on the list so you can deduct the cost of  those. You will be able to manage with one model, and two batteries. I'v  found even racing f5d that I can do a 6 heat day on 2 batteries, and I have raced the same model for over a season now. £300 pounds may sound alot, but if you work out the cost of your average model, I bet its not far off. Don't forget, this isn't a plane that will be coming out 4 times a year when you can make a race day, you can fly it all year round and have an absolute ball!!

As far as it being a battery event, that is true to a point, but I can guarantee that the difference in performance will be so minimal that piloting will still be 90% of the racing. Any body who has pylon raced before will tell you that!

And Cactus, I think we all know that, unfortionately, this is not possible!

it's going to be far more of an advantage being able to fly around the pins than any lipo's make is going to give you. Paul could fly on any cheap horrid lipo's and still beat most people using the best money can buy. This class is going to be about thumbs rather than wallets!!

For the first few meetings, certainly. But once a significant number learn to fly a course it will come down to power. If power is controlled then it remains a pilot's race (as for Sport 40 between 1990 and 1996ish), but if it isn't then the ones with the best packs will have the edge.

In the USA they've talked about both power and energy limiting to address this, but I don't know if they've actually done it.

I think it hinges around the race format - ten laps and sub-two-minute races. This means that your ideal setup will run at close to 30C to push as much energy into the model in the race as possible. My suggestion (FWIW) is to reformat the races so that you need to run the cells much closer to 15 or even 10C. You could achieve this by requiring the model to do (say) two or three ten-lap heats on one battery (using some kind of "Parc Firme" to prevent people sneaking new packs into the models between heats), and then have a 25 lap final. This would reduce both the number of packs required and the amount of field-charging needed at an event. The packs aren't worked as hard so the differences between standard and "mega" packs is much less of an issue, and the packs themselves should last a lot longer. It also opens up the prospect that pilots might have to do a bit of throttle management to trade speed for range to complete the required number of heats.

Having a Parc Firme shouldn't be much of an issue because electric racers shouldn't need anything like as much "servicing" between races as is needed to keep a Sport 40 (let alone and F3D) model going. And a 25-lap final should seperate the men from the F3A flyers...

£0.03 supplied,

PDR

As far as it being a battery event, that is true to a point, but I can guarantee that the difference in performance will be so minimal that piloting will still be 90% of the racing. Any body who has pylon raced before will tell you that!

The thing is, Ollie, I *have* raced - at local, european and world champs level. I would suggest that once you get to a certain level the pilotting excellence is a given, and it then becomes a power event. In F3D it's a matter of delivering the best power through the race, which is a matter of engine/pipe/prop combination. In EF1 the motor and prop are fixed and the only variable is the battery (and possibly the ESC, although the variation is much smaller).

PDR

 Pete this is meant as a beginners class, a feeder class for F5D and F3D I think you are over complicating things for the sake of it. Stick to the current EF1 rules, apart from the course size, which you could counteract by reducing the amount of laps per race (Justin's suggestion which I think would be good)

PDR, then I can't agree with you less, even in this limited class, the difference between a 25c and a 45c pack will be very small and thumbs will still play the majority role.

If anyone who starts racing and gets to a point at which they feel like the battery pack in their model is holding them back, I doubt they will be concerned about spending the money to purchase better packs. Which isn't a massive amount. Considering they can be used in all manner of different models.

Looking at the rules they say a MAXIMUM battery weight of 325g.

So it'll be a great advantage to have the very best cells matched to the race duration so as to get the best possible balance between power and weight.

If they had specified a MINIMUM battery weight then the weight side of the equation is removed immediately.  As the prop and motor are both controlled so is the current draw.  That massively reduces the advantage of high 'C' rated cells.  It'll also put less strain on the batteries so helping them to last.  A battery that's only delivering 20C and finishing up with 40% charge left will last many times that of one delivering 30C and run down to 5%!

Yes when everyone is at same high standard and there is little to choose between the pilots then batteries will be the decider.  However with an entry level event it'll be a long time before that occurs!  And when it does move up to the next performance level which'll put more emphasis on the pilots again.

I will refrain from taking offense to comments about E2k and C2000.

As for pack quality, yes a batt that can hold a higher voltage under load will provide a more powerfull set up. I think what a lot of people are missing is that not everyone competes to win. If they did there'd be 3 entries in every modelling class be it combat team race or scale. People like to compete to achieve, this may only be to beat there personnel best. Stop worrying about winning. If a certain gent from Yorkshire that flies fugly C2000 models (and has won more pylon events than the entire racing community put together) decided to enter you'd all kiss victory goodbye
It hasn't stopped 20 other people entering c2000 all year.

Having studied the sport 40 times on a news letter from 1993 the times were nearly 50% slower for most of the field than the fastest guys. They still had 30 odd enteries.

A bit more back on subject. I've hoped and prayed someone would get EF1 going in the UK. It is the only pylon class i've ever seen that has models supported by the biggest model manufacturer in the world. The models are stunning. The rules prohibet expensive construction. It 'is' cheap compared to most racing classes. It;s fast enough to entice sport flyers to have a go but not to fast to learn to race. The best thing for me though is it's scale outline rules. I love real racers

Nice one Ollie, 

That's because there were two seperate leagues - the "A" league and the "B" league. But there were still at least 6-12 people (depending on who was at the particular meeting) who were on a par with the top times and would contend the finals.

I have to say I find the idea of entering a comp that you have no aspiration to win rather strange. It might get you to the first three or four, but you'd get bored after that.

PDR

Thanks Stakin!

I agree, I think we have all got abit hung up on the competitive side of this class when it is really all about having fun and giving people the chance to come racing! The models are great, the rules make everyone around the same speed, the atmosphere will be relaxed, and like every British summer, the weather will no doubt be cold!

But there is no doubt all entrants will have a great weekend, I can't wait!

Apparently that never stopped you competing before Pete 

I have to say I find the idea of entering a comp that you have no aspiration to win rather strange. It might get you to the first three or four, but you'd get bored after that.

PDR

I think that you haven't quite understood the point about some people's aspirations in competing.  Yes we'd all love to win.  However the near certainty that that isn't going to happen doesn't dissuade most.  For example you'll find plenty of non-league football teams absolutely loving the opportunity to play at Old Trafford or the like.  Even though they know that they're in for an afternoon of chasing shadows. 

Similarly in my car racing days there were plenty of people that turned up with uncompetitive gear that no one could have driven to victory.  Yet they still enjoyed themselves.  Probably because they were competing - if only against themselves and their performance last time.

Racing offers lots of different types of achievement/ learning which can appeal to many types of characters other than the "win at all costs" psche.

I really enjoy the technical side of trying to figure out what might work well in terms of designing/ building and flying technique. Hoping to prove a couple of theories of mine (to myself not anyone else, and therefore not necessarily competitively driven) in Club 2000 in 2012 - will I win? There's more chance of me waking up to find Mylene Klass playing with the little general, but will I fly a 75? I certainly hope to!

Z

I have to say I find the idea of entering a comp that you have no aspiration to win rather strange. It might get you to the first three or four, but you'd get bored after that.

PDR

Well, I did win the odd motor cycle trial but the main object in entering was because I enjoyed the challenge of the terrain.  Similarly the chance of my wife and I winning a national championship against up to 100 other dinghies was so slight as to approach zero but we enjoyed the sailing and racing other people in the middle of the fleet.  It's just as well we weren't alone because it would have been a poor event if only those with a chance of winning competed.

I don't see why the same doesn't apply to model plane events, though I know the entries aren't very numerous by comparison.

Geoff

I think you will find Ollie has published the rules as per the American rules which have proved successful in the USA and Europe so no need to pull them apart.

So all you need to do is go buy the e flight set up and a model that fits the spec either kit of e flight rtf both are available.

Job done no need for all this discussion look at the usa sites if you need to see what they are using , then come along have a go and enjoy yourself. This sort of class will self govern like C20 did in its hey day .

Just remember its out in the field you should be enjoying yourself not winding every one up from your armchair 

I'm in love with that shoestring, I love these racers.

I'm confused with all this talk about rules... I've played league cricket for nearly 30 years.  Theres some very famous rules published by the MCC.  I read them 30 years ago and I just play to them.  I find this works very well.  Also the equipment manufacturers make equipment within the rules, you buy said equipment and go play.  You can buy a 25 quid cricket bat, or a 325 quid cricket bat... You can score 150 not out with each.  Sometimes shots not hit so well will go further with the expensive bat.  If you miss a straight ball with either bat its goon night sweetheart.

Think about that PDR

CM

Pylon racing is a little more dependant on the equipment than cricket.

PDR