Topic: Schwing - James Hammond's New Glider

Anyway, now that we're all understanding the point, can we leave the personal comments out lads? I really think from experiences we've all had in the past on the forum that we should all know by now that they are DEFINITELY best left out of our lives!!  many thanks in advance for considering that

+1. I learned stuff from the technical discussion. Nothing from the <generous mode> strong opinions.

Dear Forum, long time watcher...first time poster.

I have observed many personal and non-personal comments on this forum over a variety of subjects, I have also read many technically accurate and not so technically accurate comments too.

The basic facts remain that the "Schwing" has an elevator and not an AMT, its designer, production & distribution team have decided that this is the marketplace and have pitched the product accordingly. We the consumer will ultimately respond to this new product with our wallets, hopefully based upon the pre-production testing feedback and our gut-feeling for the capacity of the model that is being offered to the us.

The human condition dictates that the purchase or non-purchase of this 'toy' is not influenced over the accuracy of whether an AMT is constantly in 'stall' or not. Merely whether we want it and can afford it

Therefore, I would respectfully ask you to give it a rest. Stop arguing over semantics and await the real-time development of this "potentially"  new exciting 'toy' . Or not! - this as always is our personal choice. 

P.S - I don't have any fancy Quals to quote (and if I did, I wouldn't post them!!) - just wanted to try and focus this thread on the development of a new 'toy'

Ian C

OK Zim, i see what you mean now.
 in post 44 you said a wing and I thought you meant a wing!



and as a thought, even in a prop hang the aoa is still less than 15 degrees to raf.

So provided the AMT is not flown aggresively it will remain unstalled. Thank god for that,

I just don't quite understand the bit about a stalled wing producing lift.
 are you saying that a wing that is 99% stalled is still producing 1% lift and therefore it is producing lift! which is a bit too obvious so I guess you mean is able to climb.( i guess we are not talking retreating blade theory )

andy, who has probably flown more AMT time than all of you! put together

ps.  my AMT has elevators as well. how good is that!!

Actually Andy, I reckon that an AMT with elevators might be as good as it gets. But tricky to do though.

J

Pat, I think I have answered your question. When manouevreing aggressively, which is likely what we'll all be wanting to do with this one, when you consider the typical throws on an AMT, it is highly likely to spend a large amount of its time stalled i.e. operating beyond the alpha at which it will produce max force/ lift. Hence stalled.

Anyway, if you've answered your own question as you've said I guess you're sorted 

Z

Needless to say Zim is right on the ball here.

I'm sorry that I have not been eloquent enough to explain here, also that I may have seemed a bit condescending, which believe me - was never, ever, my intention.

Maybe I have lived out of the UK too long, I don't know.

But anyway, I am getting back to the drawing board, and frankly enjoying it - so thanks to all those who appreciate my efforts exactly as they are intentioned and have expressed encouragement.

In return I'll do my best to listen and get stuff on to the slopes that we all can have fun with...which after all is what it's eally about - though sometimes this enjoyment seems to be lost in the hot air.

Cheers all, and a very special thanks to Zim for putting things to rights here,

James

Now James, how about a model to kick the FS4's butt ?

and as a thought, even in a prop hang the aoa is still less than 15 degrees to raf.

Of course, yes, you are right about the prop hang... but not in an elevator though - still flying at well over 15alpha 

Z

the elevator is only part of the flying surface.  the tailplane as a whole is not stalled, and even if it were to momentarily stalled, gravity will put it back down at the bottom where it will then be unstalled. thats what i reckon.
andy
o level grade c in physics
ATPL(A)/IR
ATPL(H)/IR

in any case... is the Schhhhwwing a Wiz Compact x-tail beater. That is the 2.5m glider that most people have on their wish list.

Hey mate

Was referring to the "elevator" manoeuvre in my previous post - nose high power low - basically a decending harrier.

Z

in any case... is the Schhhhwwing a Wiz Compact x-tail beater. That is the 2.5m glider that most people have on their wish list.

Er,  of course not but then they are many other attributes to the Compact Wizzie. And then you wouldn't expect it either as the light single carbon is now £950 and Wizzies start from £875 to £2450! The Wizards are some of the highest quality models available.

Vote with your £! I am. Today I am going to slash the price of RCRCM Tomcats to £499 for my remaining stock even before I have had chance to list as a main model on the website. Hey it has AMT and best batch quality I have seen from RCRCM yet.

I have arranged that Paul Jubb who reviewed the Tomcat will also be one of the reviewers for the Schwing. He should be able to make a good comparison between them and may be give insight into the conventional ele and AMT in a way that I understand ie what's it fly like! Which I am naive enough to think is the important issue here.   

o level grade c in physics

  - Smallest is best 

The wizard compact isn't on my wishlist. I already got the 2.5m glider that was. With an AMT it has to be said.

I think the schwing goes on the list too.

The wizard compact isn't on my wishlist. I already got the 2.5m glider that was. With an AMT it has to be said.
I think the schwing goes on the list too.

Perhaps on my list too.  Interestingly Tom, it was my question to your comment:

Quote from: satinet on January 20, 2012, 21:03:41 PM  ................ Love the idea of a conventional elevator.

..... that started this AMT vs elevator debate off.  What's your take on the subject that provokes your preference?

Ro.   

2.5m, minimalist fuselage, 2-piece removable X-tail with elevator - aimed at speed with control
the real comparison is of course Thuro's F3F-record-holding Needle
if this goes half as well folks will be well pleased

Phil.

Perhaps on my list too.  Interestingly Tom, it was my question to your comment:

Quote from: satinet on January 20, 2012, 21:03:41 PM  ................ Love the idea of a conventional elevator.

..... that started this AMT vs elevator debate off.  What's your take on the subject that provokes your preference?

Ro.

Hi,

Fair question. I started on models like the west wings orion, gentle lady, sas ace, middle phase etc. What I would say is that they all had really good pitch response. What I would also say is that they also had some problems with incidence/decelage. Well the GL really, not so much the others.

Then I  moved on to mouldies and have flown them really more than anything else with the odd foamie.  All the mouldies I have flown have either been a vtail or with an AMT.  Now the AMT models have flown great - the Tragi 704 and the Race Mx in particular have/had excellent handling characteristics. The tragi is a very hard turner and very good at squares (e.g loops). What also strikes me about those models is the amount of down elevator you need when deploying the crow brakes - relatively way more % of the elevator travel than with a vtail. in fact on my rcrcm typhoon i think i have more down comp than actual down elevator. That I find a bit interesting as to why you seem to run out of pitch response in that particular situation (i profess no expertise).  I have no problems landing these models so I am not entirely bothered.

My position is that I have had a load of models with AMT and Vtails and I am wondering what a largish moulded model will fly like with an elevator, because I have felt, purely from a flying perspective, that the conventional elevator gave a bit better pitch response. On some models....   

Now what you would say, and be entirely correct, is that it's comparing apples to oranges because a 2m+ moulded model is quite a different animal to a poly floater or 60inch kipper of days of yore.  Of course it's so entirely subjective about pitch response, not least because of stuff like CG and tail arm length, tail size, flying style, lift etc.  I don't think I have ever had a model that didn't loop okay.   

Now I don't really understand why some people seem a bit upset about it not having AMT. I can't see that a conventional elevator WON'T work well - the vast majority of aircraft clearly have a conventional horizontal stabiliser and elevator.

However, it's obvious that the AMT does have one advantage over the elevator in that it self sets the angle between the wing and stabiliser.  However obviously it's not that simple because if you had a model designed with the wing at the wrong angle, even with an AMT the fuselage would either be flying nose up or nose down which isn't very good from an aerodynamic point of view.

Also on a moulded model you won't save much weight or complexity but having a two part tailplane and elevator as it will still have the same sort of bell crank/joiner holes etc and still require a strong fin to mount it in.  If you look at the current F3J models they are seeming to go towards a tailplane with conventional elevator in front of the rudder/fin. If you think about it that does away with the need for a strong fin and obviously negates the need for bell cranks and joiner etc.

Even if there is no other reason for an elevator beyond, "let's try something different", I have no problem with that at all. There's a lot of models around that are pretty similar.  Clearly James needs to work out his angles on this one or it will all go a bit "pete tong", but I am sure he is up to the job.

To my mind a 100 inch model at £450, with normal elevator (or AMT!),  mega big wing joiner and super big spar, minimal drag and easy supply is something to be happy about.  I reckon a lot of people are going to enjoy it. Crickey you are paying £1200+ for an F3b model now!  This just strikes me as a really sensible design for a SLOPE model (or electric).

Hope it is as good as it looks!
T

Now I don't really understand why some people seem a bit upset about it not having AMT. I can't see that a conventional elevator WON'T work well - the vast majority of aircraft clearly have a conventional horizontal stabiliser and elevator.

Tom, I don't think anyone was upset about it not having AMT. The discussion was on the rationale behind the move to elevators which led to further discussion about the merits of the two options. Personally I'm happy with either depending on convenience as much as anything.
I hadn't intended to add anything to this thread since my last post so I won't be commenting further, at least not on the AMT versus elevator issue.
If anyone wants to debate AMT versus elevator I suggest they open a new thread where it could be discussed in more general terms, after all this thread is about a forthcoming new product & there must be other points of the design that people want to consider.

Cheers,

Pat.

Hi, Fair question. ........ snip! ........ Hope it is as good as it looks!
T

T, Thank you for taking the time out to pen such a thorough response.  Much appreciated. Ro.   .... 

........ snip! ....... If anyone wants to debate AMT versus elevator I suggest they open a new thread where it could be discussed in more general terms, after all this thread is about a forthcoming new product & there must be other points of the design that people want to consider.
Cheers,
Pat.

Point taken. T'was my fault the tail issue thing got going - so I'll start something else.

Hopefully, later today, I should be on Schwingler's List.   Can I really have a pink one? ...... 

Ro.

Point taken. T'was my fault the tail issue thing got going - so I'll start something else.

Ro.

Ro,
It was a fair enough issue to raise.
 I just think that perhaps there's nothing fresh to be added to the issue wrt this model.

T, Thank you for taking the time out to pen such a thorough response.  Much appreciated. Ro.   .... 

Point taken. T'was my fault the tail issue thing got going - so I'll start something else.

Hopefully, later today, I should be on Schwingler's List.   Can I really have a pink one? ...... 

Ro.

Doubtless you could get one. Tony went through a long period in his life where he actively REFUSED to fly anything unless it was entirely pink. Allegedly. According to Dave Wright 

Z

Schwingler's List

Names stuck! Yes Ro, on it!

And for the record I was never bothered about colour schemes when I used to order my models from Wrighty. He said he would order a special and it always turned out pink! Remember Pink Pikes that's how it started (and look how many were ordered after me). So it was him Sir, not I.

Ro, we'll see what we can do about your Pink Schwing.....   

Hi
Yep
 I ordered Tony the pink pike,for a joke ofcourse we had to buy a full pot of paint , because samba didnt think they use the colour again, neither did I

I think I got that wrong or did I ?

Although I think the best colour sheme was when pengy said suprise me, he got the nemo vikos, now that did look well.
chow
dw

Yes and the Pink Vikos must have been hilarious!

But coming back on topic, of sorts, - having a real dilemma about schemes and graphics....

I like a different to to bottom if possible. Pink top and yellow/black bottom works well. Orange is a good colour.

Probably a model that looks better with simple schemes?

Just out of curiousity but what sort of graphics schemes do folk like on their mouldies?

I suppose there are the traditional graphics like on the conservative European models. eg tip flashes and plain top stripes. Or there is the bolder approach seen on RCRCM models and even on the Toxic. I have to show my hand here and say I love the Toxic and generally the bolder schemes. I see a top surface of a wing as a blank canvas that's in need of some striking graphics.
Other people probably have different opinions though.

It's got to be a more harmless topic than tailplanes! 

Shirly, it should have a phil taylor-mondrian top with pink & black stripes underneath ? 

Shirly, it should have a phil taylor-mondrian top with pink & black stripes underneath ? 

Nah- its gotta have 2-tone green stripes on white
http://www.schwing.com/
(or greyish, with pebbly bits  )

Phil.

a partial Mondrian would certainly look good. Probably not cheap though.

Will it be reviewed on here?

John.

Errrrrrrrr

And just what is wrong with my Pink Vikos?

Happy to test a Schwing for you Tony.....

Tim

Now James, how about a model to kick the FS4's butt ?

Funny you should say that Spooney...ask Tony Fumigator about "Redshift II"

hehehe

Cheers,

JH

The wizard compact isn't on my wishlist. I already got the 2.5m glider that was. With an AMT it has to be said.

I think the schwing goes on the list too.

Got to say its a nice plane Tom...wing shape and general arrangement/proportion is very well thought out I'd say.

Lovely.

James

Funny you should say that Spooney...ask Tony Fumigator about "Redshift II"

hehehe

Cheers,

JH

Not another RED competition sailplane................

Like the name.

By the way James, got a really good name waiting for a really good glider. Let me know when you're ready for it! 

Not another RED competition sailplane................

Like the name.

By the way James, got a really good name waiting for a really good glider. Let me know when you're ready for it! 

Would it by any chance suit a DS?

James

Is the redshift not top secret any more then?

Is the redshift not top secret any more then?

Woo...Adam...you might have betrayed someone's confidence...they might not tell you their secrets any more...

But in fact its not the Redshift....its a dedicated DS

JH

Woo...Adam...you might have betrayed someone's confidence...they might not tell you their secrets any more...

But in fact its not the Redshift....its a dedicated DS

Err... you mentioned the Redshift II a few posts ago.. that sort of implies there was a Redshift I anyway??

Err... you mentioned the Redshift II a few posts ago.. that sort of implies there was a Redshift I anyway??

Oh yeah...so I did!

Dohhhhhhhhh!

Redshift 1 was a low wing pylon slope racer by Chris Greengrass circa 1970's - rather akin to the Lean Green Racing Machine and the Bossanova but double sized.

It was pretty effective, but when fully ballasted, rather like flying a highly overweight Avro Lancaster.

Crikey...I have been around a long time...

Cheers lads

Woo...Adam...you might have betrayed someone's confidence...they might not tell you their secrets any more...

But in fact its not the Redshift....its a dedicated DS

JH

    

 

   

Sorry Adam - me being dumb as usual.

Redshift is still not out there but I do hope to get it there eventually.

Right now Tony is up to his neck in our projects though, and I'm quite sure he has no time to think about that one right now.

I am working on a real DS plane though - about time we had one designed in, or rather by, the UK.

Should be a goody.

I'll let everyone know when it rears its ugly (or not so ugly) head.

Cheers

James