[scdonaghy]

Just started building my third West Wings Orion 'E' kit last night using balsa cement which (whilst it takes longer) comes off the skin a lot easier than superglue. Must get some gloves from work today. I'm not sure what to do about the control system as I'm trying to build it light. I haven't yet put the top or bottom sheeting on for that very reason. Also unsure about the motor mount. I can buy some 35-40mm long screws from B & Q so I can fit the motor mount plate on the front so I can have a play with various motors & battery combinations however if I do this I'm not sure if I'm best to fit some tubes within the front cowl. I'll post photos tonight of what I mean.

Working on the wing tonight & the tailplane. Trying my hardest to make it as light & as strong as possible.

Any helpful hints & tips would be much appreciated.

[scdonaghy]

Evening,

The usual shot of the box...and this is what it should look like etc. And a photo of the fuselage I built last night. Along with the box of bits in the background.

Tonight. Hmm. Building the wings I think and considering what to do about the tailplane/rudder.

Oh and I've got some soldering to do. Had a look at my new shiny ESC for this glider and it can be setup with quite a few settings which will come in really handy.

:-)

[scdonaghy]

Started on the wings last night however a few of the wing ribs haven't seated correctly. Considering what to do. One of the options is to use some spare balsa & glue it to the existing rib and sand it down to match the correct shape.

And the lesson learnt is... if it doesn't look right, it probably isn't so yank it out before the glue sets and try again.

I'll post some pictures of the wing tonight along with the problem. Managed to sheet the top of the fuselage however I don't seem to have enough sheeting for the bottom. Maybe take a trip to the model shop tomorrow to get some more.

Still not sure about the motor fitting. Hollow carbon rods glued to the front former & the cowl?

[scdonaghy]

More pictures! Always knew a running book by Paula Radcliffe would come in handy. :-)

Top of the fuselage sheeting sanded down & fixing the last few ribs to the main wing spar.

[Patmac]

Still not sure about the motor fitting. Hollow carbon rods glued to the front former & the cowl?

If it's a Scorpion 2212 it will match the same screw holes as the 400 that I think is shown on the plan. You then only need to make sure that the wires don't foul the rotating part of the motor.

[scdonaghy]

If it's a Scorpion 2212 it will match the same screw holes as the 400 that I think is shown on the plan. You then only need to make sure that the wires don't foul the rotating part of the motor.

Hmm... very hard to explain... let me try a few pictures as they speak a thousand words.

The one the left (with the motor wires at the front) would be secured using the x bit at the front meaning that removing the motor would be simply a case of unscrewing the long bolts to release the motor.

The one on the right (with the motor wires at the back) would be secured using the x bit to the front former before the nose block meaning that removing it would require 'breaking' the nose block.

Personally I'm tempted by option 1 however I am also conscious of additional weight.

[Patmac]

The one the left (with the motor wires at the front) would be secured using the x bit at the front meaning that removing the motor would be simply a case of unscrewing the long bolts to release the motor.

I wouldn't be too worried about a few grams extra weight for the alternative but why use the X bit to mount it this way round ?

PS this is how I mounted a Scorpion 2212 motor in a vintage model :

[Motobiman]

Hiya

Dont seem to be able to reply to your PM's.

On the snakes, I tend to plan the layout early on but then finalise them right at the end without adjustment but if for some reason I need them I tend to put the adjuster at the servo end.

Some of them with a clevis and separate threaded part are very long.

Try and keep the outers as long and as straight as possible, supported near the ends so there is little chance of flex especially in the 'push' mode.

On the motor I agree with Patmac and you could if you wished make the nose block removable by screws and dowels from the inside, then the motor can be accessed if need arises.

be lucky

[Patmac]

Rather than making the nose block removable I'd have cut a hole in the former that's shown glued in place so that the motor could be withdrawn through it.

[scdonaghy]

Done the soldering of the connectors for the motor & speed controller. Just the battery left to go. AUW of components is 200g (motor, esc, servos x 2, receiver & folding prop bar). Last weigh in for main fuselage came in at a little over 70g excluding the tail fin & horizontal stabiliser. And it's not fully sheeted yet either. Not sure about the weight of the wings. On my way to being sub 400g! Happy days. :-)

[scdonaghy]

Right. Been playing with some metal rods on the fuselage. I've got a bag of Dubro micro connectors. Should I fit them both ends or clevice on one end and the micro connector on the servo?

[scdonaghy]

Bought some carbon rods yesterday for fitting instead of the plastic snakes that come in the kits. So how am I supposed to fit them as they are 'rubbing' against the fuselage on exit?

[Motobiman]

Hiya

The outers should come through the fuse so the rods dont rub on the structure.

Try and get the pushrod runs as straight as possible restricted to only one gentle bend if absolutely necessary.

I seem to remember the Orion E standard set up is elevator underneath on the right and rudder on the left both under the tailplane.

The elevator should be pretty straight if the servos on the opposite sides to the horns are used.

As standard doesn't it use flexible plastic inners and outers?

What's wrong with using those?

If you end up with too much of a bend you will have to use piano wire for that one and put a dog leg in the end as a last resort.

Whatever you do try and keep the outer sleeve as short as you can at the end near the horn.

be lucky

[scdonaghy]

I'm concerned about the flex in them. The only way I had of stopping the flexing was by epoxing the outer to a small piece of balsa on the side otherwise both the rudder & elevator can deflect. Just thought rods might be easier. Does it really matter though?! 

[Motobiman]

The plastic snakes are quite adequate enough for a lightweight like the Orion E.

You have to support the plastic outer tubes near to each end and if you can at two or three places along the length.

That's why its good to build them in before covering the fuselage

Keep the bends as gradual as you can and support the ends with a small wedge of balsa or foam so they cant float about in thin air.

You only need adjustment one end and I generally do that at the servo end so the other end of the outer at the control surface horn is as close as possible to the clevis.

Make sense?

[scdonaghy]

Yep. Perfect sense. Thank you. More building for me tonight. :-)

[Patmac]

As Motobiman says plastic snakes are adequate for this model but there's no need to support them along the length. Only to fix them at each end as near to the control horns as is practical in order to minimise the flex at the working ends.

[scdonaghy]

Here's a really wild thought... I wonder if an Orion 'E' could be glassed and turned into a hotliner... lol (and no I haven't been drinking... yet!)

[Patmac]

It could be glassed & turned into a dog - but not a hot dog. 

[scdonaghy]

Evening,

So this is a picture of where I stand at the moment. I've sheeted the bottom part of the main wing and almost finished the wing tips ready for attaching to the main wing. I had to remove the top of the fuse to put the snakes in after I took them out when trying carbon rods. Long story cut short... it seemed like a good idea at the time.

Started another thread early today to try and figure out a v-tail. Eventual conclusion was that it could be done with about 30 degrees of dihedral on either side (think Phantom jet). I've already started lightening the tail before attaching at however I'm still tempted by doing a v-tail.

My dx5-e can do the mix so that won't be a problem. I've run my maths and figured out how much surface area I need to deflect for it to be effective however I'm still in two minds.

Going to try and finish the wing tonight ready for covering and get the servos into the main bay.

Still trying to figure out as well if I want to be able to remove the motor or just keep it in there. Hmm. It's a Scorpion 2212/26 which can be run on a 500-600mAh pack (rated at 25C on that basis of a maximum current draw of 12A) when swinging a 9.5" x 5" folding prop with all the metal that goes with it.

And yes I'm persevering with balsa cement. Not finding it to be the easiest thing to work with. Medium & thin CA are great however when the lids get superglued on... you're left with half bottle of something you can do much with. Unless someone has suggestions.

And at this rate I've already considered buying a 4th Orion 'E' kit from West Wings (this is my 3rd). The first went horribly wrong, the second had ailerons however when somebody said flatten it I messed up the entire wing. Oh and on this one I'm using Ripmax SD100 servos. Which is what will go into the 4th kit for ailerons!

So... happy days... off to build some more now.

:-)

[Motobiman]

Hiya

Glad your getting on.

I would build this one with Xtail and get an idea of how it flys then when you are confident with it and if you still feel its worthwhile it would not be difficult to either convert it to v tail or build a new one from scratch.

Whatever you do for a thermal glider keep it light and it will reward with better performance.
 
Personally I use a cyano (thin and medium) a lot only switching to epoxy and very occasionally pva for special situations.

Bear in mind the Orion E can be built down to around 325gr with a 22mm outrunner.

be lucky

[scdonaghy]

Latest weigh in is bringing it in around the 400g mark before covering! Hmm... am I do something wrong?

I've got some transparent blue profilm for covering although no doubt somebody is going to say it's too heavy.

I'm moving house in about 4 weeks time so all my money is invested in the move.

Pictures of what I did last night... notice the close up of the 2 ripmax sd100's being used for the tail.

Thanks for the input. Standard tail it is then!

Oh and the AUW weight of 400g does include the 950mAh 3 cell lipo I'm using. So for the next one a 2 cell lipo and a higher kV 22mm brushless! And v-tail with ailerons too!

Happy days. Be glad when I've got something to fly again as I'm grounded at the moment. :-)

[Patmac]

I wouldn't get too worried about being slightly overweight it doesn't make that much difference to the still air duration, is an advantage if there's no lift with any breeze & also if there's any thermal activity you can follow it further back downwind with a better chance of getting back to base. You will actually be less limited in the number of days that you can fly the model.

Using 2s doesn't help to reduce weight if you want to use the same power & motor run time. The current & battery capacity would have to increase by 50%. That means your 950mAH 3s would need to be replaced by a 1425mAH 2s, the new motor would probably need to be bigger & heavier as it would have to be capable of taking 50% more current.

[scdonaghy]

To be fair I'll have a better idea of AUW once I've finished sheeting the wings, sanding down the leading edge and covering them. Oh and attaching the motor, doing the front cowl (sanding it)... etc.

Happy days! :-)

PS: At least it isn;t as heavy at the last one that clocked in at a massive 700-750g!

[Motobiman]

Hiya

400gr for a standard kit before covering is pretty good I reckon  :

If you remember that far back, to get down to 325gr one has to change some of the wood for lower density, some of the sections for smaller and the construction in certain areas.

A lighter version takes less power for the same performance but getting down to this weight was to build a competitive model to the very strict spec of a one model competition flown in the summer evenings.

Certainly at a higher weight the model will penetrate in higher winds and there are some advantages to that as well.

You are learning all the time.

Get this one under your belt and then decide if you want to try and improve the performance of this model or move onto a different design.

Some get a lot of satisfaction from maximising a particular design through considered mods, others are bored by the whole process.

That's one of the things that's so good about aeromodelling - something for everyone.

be lucky

[scdonaghy]

Evening,

Just sheeting the top of the tips... scared of breaking the epoxy/balsa when sheeting. Got one half of the top done... just the bottom... then the other tip... then the centre section. Then I create a large amount of balsa dust.

Can help wondering if there is an easier way considering the dihedral braces.

Hmm... any way... back to drink tea & building planes. :-)

[scdonaghy]

Figured out last night an easy way of sheeting. Put it on the wing where it needs to go and mark the points where it meets the ribs then use a straight edge to draw a line between them & then using a steel ruler cut it down. Test fit and fine tune until it fits like a glove. Then out comes the balsa cement. Squirt a generous portion onto the leading edge of the wing and then hold the sheet on until it starts to set. Once it's set squirt a generous portion on the next part & the ribs. Squeeze together to remove any excess cement & wipe with a tissue. Leave for about 30 seconds to a minute then squeeze together again. By this time the tackiness will hold it together. If you've got some, use quick clamps to clamp down the sheet & the spar. Et voila... a fantastic finish and it's almost perfect!

Just got to wait for my really long steel ruler (0.9m) before I do the top middle. Really started to come together now. :-)

[scdonaghy]

Just finished sheeting the top of the main wing just the bottom of the tips to go. Need some more quick clamps though. Don't like waiting for glue to dry. :-)

[Motobiman]

I think there may be as many different ways of doing LE sheeting as there are designs that use it.

Here's another - method.

Mark each sheet and get the fit right.

Mark the line of each rib on the sheets.

Fix the top sheeting first.

Wipe a thin layer of balsa cement on the ribs, LE and spar and then on the underside of the sheeting were marked and the LE and spar joins.

Let the cement dry then tape the sheet in place. Get it right.

Then dip a small brush in acetone and run it along each join doing about an inch at a time.

The acetone liquifies the cement and makes the joint.

Then do the same with balsa cement on the bottom sheeting at the RIB JOIN ONLY.

The thin brush can be worked along each rib/sheeting joint.

On any really difficult areas like near the dihedral braces, the acetone will penetrate a few pin holes through the sheeting.

Lastly wick thin cyano into the LE and spar joints.

be lucky

[scdonaghy]

So out comes the handy tape dispenser tonight to do the tips then. :-)

[JonnyST]

Hiya,
You're doing a great job here, be nice to see it finished.
The only thing I would have slightly different are the servos. I would personally turn them around so the servo horn is further away from the sleeve. As in your picture they are quite close and may cause some movement in the servo over time as the arc of the servo will be pushing against the side of the sleeve at full throw. Here is a pic as an example.

As you can see the sleeve protudes further forward of the fixing which gives it a bit of 'give' at full throw. You may find with yours that you might have to get the snake clevis at the other end in the nearest hole in the horn to the control surface. As it's a lightweight electric glider you shouldn't need excessive control movements anyway.
Good luck,
John.

[scdonaghy]

Evening,

Just got home to find my new shiny 900mm ruler has arrived. I think that should be plenty big enough for my model building!

Finished the sheeting on the top middle section of the wing the other day using a length of carbon strip to draw the line and a 300mm ruler to cut the straight line.

Still to do the bottom sheeting on the tips then I can sand it down ready for covering with the transparent blue pro-film I've had sitting on top of the wardrobe for the past couple of weeks.

I'll try to post some more pictures later on tonight.

It'll be a happy day when the bird is ready for her first flight and it's calm enough for a test flight. :-)

[scdonaghy]

Hello,

I'm confused. Just tried to use the Drive Calculator program with my current motor, battery, esc & propellor...erm...according to the program it's over power however when I run it through my wattmeter I'm only pulling at most 12amps.

Although it did suggest moving from a 9.5x5 to a 8x6 prop.

Hmm...should I just ignore this and carry on going?

Thank you,

Stuart

[Patmac]

Just ignore it. The only results I've seen from any of these type of calculators are ball-park at best.

[scdonaghy]

Just ignore it. The only results I've seen from any of these type of calculators are ball-park at best.

Hi,

Thanks for that! Makes me feel a little bit better about putting what I've put into it. Proofs in the pudding... or so they say. Personally I'm a big fan of... the proofs in the eating (of the afore mentioned pudding). Anyway here's some pictures of the Orion as it slowly comes together.

PS: It's only been two weeks since I started building it. I personally don't think that's bad going for a kit build.

(I've also tried to take a few pictures as I lightened the horizontal stab so other people can get some ideas for how to do it)

[scdonaghy]

Hi,

Going to start covering it tonight with the pro-film. Any suggestions or tips on the best ways to cover as this is the first time I've used Pro-film?

Oh and I did a quick check last night using the scales and she's coming out at about 400g excluding the rudder & elevators (plus the required connectors). Considering I've still got to sand down a few bits and bobs I'm hopeful she'll stay at this figure or even drop below it. Especially as some of the glue hadn't fully dried last night.

Have a good day. :-)

[scdonaghy]

Evening,

Well started covering with the pro-film. According to calculations she'll be about the 450g mark when fully covered and everything is finished. How does this compare? Is this about the right weight for this type of model? Or is it too heavy?

Thank you,

Stuart

[scdonaghy]

Just found a battery that weighs just 50g and is rated to 35C (21a) however the downside is it's only a 600mAh battery. Still it's a weight saving of roughly 45g!

So on the basis of full power being used, and the assumption of a constant current of 12A that gives about 3 minutes burn time. Or rather launch, get to height and power off. The only other issue is powering the RC gear from such a low capacity battery.

It's a lovely day for flying...just a shame she's not airworthy yet! :-)

[Patmac]

The Orion was originally was intended to use a 400 brushed motor with 7 or 8 nickel cells. That's a less powerful motor than the Scorpion weighing about 70g (20g more) plus 150 - 190g of battery.

IMO you'd be better of using the 950mAH battery. The extra weight won't have a noticeable effect on performance but the lower proportional load will help extend the lipos working life.

BTW are you sure about the difference in weight between the 600 & 950 lipos ? I have a 3s 900 lipo that weighs 68g & it's quite heavily packaged.

[scdonaghy]

The Orion was originally was intended to use a 400 brushed motor with 7 or 8 nickel cells. That's a less powerful motor than the Scorpion weighing about 70g (20g more) plus 150 - 190g of battery.

IMO you'd be better of using the 950mAH battery. The extra weight won't have a noticeable effect on performance but the lower proportional load will help extend the lipos working life.

BTW are you sure about the difference in weight between the 600 & 950 lipos ? I have a 3s 900 lipo that weighs 68g & it's quite heavily packaged.

Hi,

According to the kitchen scales (and yes they might not be the most accurate thing to be using) the battery is a Multiplex 950mAh (Li-BATT BX 3/1-950) weighing in at 95g. What's the make of yours?

Thanks,

Stuart :-)