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New EU 2.4 ghz regulations

Started by tomkfly, January 06, 2015, 09:24:44 am

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tomkfly

I believe new regs came into force on the 1st JAN. My understanding is they make some radio systems obsolete. Probbably  not retrospective, but may mean you won't be able to buy any new receivers. Two major systems affected and not upgradable are Spectrum DSM and Futaba FASST.  DSX and FASST-S are okay.
Fr'Sky have released firmware upgrades for the Taranis and X series receivers.
Anyone know anything about this?

Tom
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at often change.        www.deesidemac.co.uk
Gravity, thou art a heartless bitch

Loopdreams

Surely it just means you won't be able to buy any new transmitters, why would receivers be affected?  And all new Spektrum TXs are DSMX anyway.

TonyKing

Is there a link to these new reg's
The brain is a wonderful organ. It starts working the moment you get up in the morning and does not stop until you get into the office.
Senior Administrator and Forum Moderator

tomkfly

January 06, 2015, 09:49:53 am #3 Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 10:15:59 am by tomkfly
Quote from: Loopdreams on January 06, 2015, 09:28:56 am
Surely it just means you won't be able to buy any new transmitters, why would receivers be affected?  And all new Spektrum TXs are DSMX anyway.



Obviously Tx will not be available. What I meant was: if you already have a TX you might not be able to buy any additional RXs.
All New Spectrum Transmitters available in the EU are DSMX, but I think, but am not sure, DSM2 is still available outside Europe.
Also a lot of recievers are actually trancievers, so will have to comply with the new regs.

Tom
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at often change.        www.deesidemac.co.uk
Gravity, thou art a heartless bitch


tomkfly

When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at often change.        www.deesidemac.co.uk
Gravity, thou art a heartless bitch

Cactus

so does this mean after swapping over to FRsky i won't be able to buy anymore D series RX's?
I know you believe you understand what you think i said, but i am not sure you realise that what you think you heard is not what i meant.

Loopdreams

Quote from: tomkfly on January 06, 2015, 09:49:53 am
Obviously Tx will not be available. What I meant was: if you already have a TX you might not be able to buy any additional RXs.
All New Spectrum Transmitters available in the EU are DSMX, but I think, but am not sure, DSM2 is still available outside Europe.
Also a lot of recievers are actually trancievers, so will have to comply with the new regs.

Tom

Actually I was just thinking about this and although the new TXs are DSMX they are all backwards compatible with DSM2 receivers so I guess they could be affected.

satinet

Quote from: Cactus on January 06, 2015, 10:24:21 am
so does this mean after swapping over to FRsky i won't be able to buy anymore D series RX's?


I don't think you need to,   The Xr series is the same price and can be bound to the old RF modules AFAIK. 

e.g the x4r is £1 cheaper than the d4r-11

tomkfly

Quote from: satinet on January 06, 2015, 10:29:58 am
I don't think you need to,   The Xr series is the same price and can be bound to the old RF modules AFAIK. 

e.g the x4r is £1 cheaper than the d4r-11

New X4Rs will have the new firmware and therefore probably won't be compatible with older Tx modules.
Fr'Sky may still release firmware updates for D series units. At the moment they still intend to supply non updated equipment in non EU countries.

Tom
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at often change.        www.deesidemac.co.uk
Gravity, thou art a heartless bitch

onewinglow

Wrote a long reply with links on this then lost it all :banghead: So I'll just provide some links
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2138241
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1754925
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1176328&page=832#post27956506
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2315800
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2290913
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2121361
Main change is the requirement to LBT(Listen Before Transmit) and the duty cycle limit of 10%. Existing 'stuff' is 'grandfathered in' and can continue to be used. The two main exhisting protocols that are affected are Futaba FASST and DSM2. FASST has a duty cycle of 25% and does not LBT. Older units are not able to be modified to comply, as I understand it. The V5(EU VERSION) of the latest software update for the Futaba 14SG modifies the FASST protocol but 3rd party Rx, eg FrSky, fail and become unreliable at best. Newly manufactured/imported Spektrum Tx will no longer be backward compatible with DSM2 as this protocol is non complient and therefore can not be transmitted.
http://www.modelflying.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=103168
http://www.modelflying.co.uk/forums/postings.asp?th=102235
That should do for now!

onewinglow

Forgot to add that the new regs apply to anything that transmits and that includes telemetry Rx.

Cactus

maddening, you wait and wait so this stuff settles down and you're not caught out, buy hundreds of pounds worth of stuff only for the EU to s**t out some new stupid ideas that change nothing.

seriously, how many muslim school children have died because a FRsky rx told it's owner the range is a bit low.
I know you believe you understand what you think i said, but i am not sure you realise that what you think you heard is not what i meant.

Phil_G

Its been in the pipeline for something like 6 years Phil...

itsme

Stand by for the police raid, Cactus. You just typed the code words......

tomkfly

Quote from: Cactus on January 06, 2015, 13:38:53 pm
maddening, you wait and wait so this stuff settles down and you're not caught out, buy hundreds of pounds worth of stuff only for the EU to s**t out some new stupid ideas that change nothing.

seriously, how many muslim school children have died because a FRsky rx told it's owner the range is a bit low.

We are only a tiny, tiny proportion of the users of the 2.4 band. I don't think the EU were just trying to target us.

Tom
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at often change.        www.deesidemac.co.uk
Gravity, thou art a heartless bitch

Cactus

didn't think they were, but it's just stupid when something this new like 2.4 comes along they move the goal posts just as people have moved over to it for little apparent reason.
I know you believe you understand what you think i said, but i am not sure you realise that what you think you heard is not what i meant.

Loopdreams

Presumably the reason is to keep the 2.4Ghz band actually usable as more devices use it.

FrankS

It's been well know, European manufacturers (and some others from the Far East) certified their equipment to the new standard mid last year, with no apparent compatibility issues.

pchristy

Quote from: onewinglow on January 06, 2015, 12:54:37 pm
Forgot to add that the new regs apply to anything that transmits and that includes telemetry Rx.


Like most technical docs, reading the new regs is like wading through treacle! However, at a quick glance, it does look like if the transmitted power is less than 10 mW, it is exempt from a lot of the new regulations. I doubt very much if any receiver outputs more than 10mW......

--
Pete
"No matter how much you push the envelope, it'll still be stationery."

tomkfly

Quote from: pchristy on January 06, 2015, 17:53:39 pm
Like most technical docs, reading the new regs is like wading through treacle! However, at a quick glance, it does look like if the transmitted power is less than 10 mW, it is exempt from a lot of the new regulations. I doubt very much if any receiver outputs more than 10mW......

Wouldn't  it take almost the same as the Tx to send Telemetry data back at full range?

Tom
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at often change.        www.deesidemac.co.uk
Gravity, thou art a heartless bitch

Loopdreams

I guess not if you take the view that the link doesn't need to be as robust.  A few missed data packets probably won't be as calamitous if it's just relaying battery voltage rather than control commands.

tomkfly

Quote from: Loopdreams on January 06, 2015, 18:33:55 pm
I guess not if you take the view that the link doesn't need to be as robust.  A few missed data packets probably won't be as calamitous if it's just relaying battery voltage rather than control commands.

On a Taranis it could be suppling information to adjust flight controls.

Tom
When you change the way you look at things, the things you look at often change.        www.deesidemac.co.uk
Gravity, thou art a heartless bitch

PDR

January 06, 2015, 18:54:31 pm #23 Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 18:55:46 pm by PDR
Only if programmed dangerously.

FCS design 101 - never [ever] incorporate low-integrity parameter feeds into primary flight control laws.

The mere fact that you *can* do a thing does not inherently make it a good idea to do it...

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

Phil_G

January 06, 2015, 18:58:27 pm #24 Last Edit: January 07, 2015, 10:12:25 am by Phil_G
The receiver has the same RF strip as the transmitter so is physically capable of full RF output, whether they use this to the full is down to the firmware and how it configures the cc2500 patable/frendo, I've no idea but Simon might know.


meharibear

Quote from: PDR on January 06, 2015, 18:54:31 pm
The mere fact that you *can* do a thing does not inherently make it a good idea to do it...

PDR
Yes, ask any politician  :''
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened.  (Terry Pratchett)

pchristy

Quote from: tomkfly on January 06, 2015, 18:04:23 pm
Wouldn't  it take almost the same as the Tx to send Telemetry data back at full range?

Tom


Not necessarily. 2.4 GHz is essentially "line-of-sight" for a start, and the higher a transmitter is, the less power you need to get a certain coverage. That's why TV transmitter masts are so high! 10mW from 100 ft up will cover a much greater area than you might imagine! Also, the return channel is primarily being used for "information" rather than "control", so the link doesn't need to be so robust.

I can't find the link at the moment, but I think all (model) airborne transmissions are restricted to 10 mW, except 5GHz, where you are allowed 25mW. Certainly it is permissible to use some channels at 433MHz for telemetry, and these are definitely 10mW only. I'm pretty sure the same applies to 2.4 GHz.

I'm still plowing through the new regs when time permits, but from what I've seen so far, that should mean that telemetry at 10mW should be exempt from a lot of the new stuff.

Also bear in mind that we are talking about Effective Radiated Power (erp) here. Transmitters only actually put out 60mW at the terminals, relying on an aerial gain of 2dB to get up to the full 100mW erp. The receiver aerials are much simpler, and will have little, if any, gain.
--
Pete
"No matter how much you push the envelope, it'll still be stationery."

satinet

Cactus Phil

If you  look at this document for frsky upgrades it seems you can still use the "old" rxs with the new update.

http://www.rcmf.co.uk/4um/index.php/topic,102172.msg1201737.html#msg1201737
It also looks like new firmware x8rs and x6rs will work with old RF modules.

So nothing to really worry about from an FrSky user's perspective.


nickr100

could someone clarify for me that i will no longer be able to buy rx's for my FASST transmitter, but im still allowed to use what ive got?? i kinda have to agree with cactus in that i have been using futaba 2.4 almost since it came out and have quite a bit of money tied up in my RC equipment. i have plenty of gear for just now but if i cant buy replacement rx as and when i need them, it will effectively make my tx obsolete and worthless as i will not be able to sell it on.
am i understanding this right??

FrankS

Nickr, no problems you can carry on buying Futaba FASST and 3rd party compatibles with your pre 1 Jan 2015 transmitter and they will work fine. This issue arises with some 3rd party FASST rxs with the new FASST txs, Futaba have obviously checked that older Rxs work with the newer protocol but it is upto the 3rd part manufacturers to check their product (for instance I understand that Frsky have a firmware update for their FASST rxs). So nothing to worry about.

Cactus

QuoteIf you  look at this document for frsky upgrades it seems you can still use the "old" rxs with the new update.

Cheers  :af
now... what to do with my 2 ff8 modules. can they be updated??  $%&
I know you believe you understand what you think i said, but i am not sure you realise that what you think you heard is not what i meant.

nickr100

thanks for that frank. for a moment i thought i had an excuse to buy a new Tx!!!   :''

Patmac

Quote from: Cactus on January 12, 2015, 11:56:38 am
Cheers  :af
now... what to do with my 2 ff8 modules. can they be updated??  $%&

Why would you need/want to ?  $%&
Pax vobiscum

Cactus

to work with the new receivers that won't listen to my stone age modules.
I know you believe you understand what you think i said, but i am not sure you realise that what you think you heard is not what i meant.

PDR

One of the thinks that we warned about when 2.4G first came in for model use was that we don't "own" the band or the protocols, and that as a result they were subject to regulation & changes in which we (minority users) would have little or no say. This is an example of that situation.

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

itsme

Great. Where did I put those crystals?

satinet

Quote from: Cactus on January 12, 2015, 13:05:54 pm
to work with the new receivers that won't listen to my stone age modules.


Phil have you got a pre "d mode" "v8" module (or modules)? 
If yes you might have to change them, and you probably would want to anyway, at some point, as it seems likely Frsky will move over to the X?R range anyway. If you have modules that work in two way "d mode" it looks like you should be okay. 

I don't think it's a disaster if you do have the old modules as newer ones are pretty cheap.

Loopdreams

Quote from: PDR on January 12, 2015, 13:11:39 pm
One of the thinks that we warned about when 2.4G first came in for model use was that we don't "own" the band or the protocols, and that as a result they were subject to regulation & changes in which we (minority users) would have little or no say. This is an example of that situation.

PDR

Yeah, I remember there were a whole raft of reasons why 2.4Ghz was a bad idea, how the whole band would become unusable in a couple of years, how it would never catch on with serious aeromodellers and how 35Mhz and peg boards were just better. LOL.

satinet

Quote from: nickr100 on January 12, 2015, 11:18:47 am
could someone clarify for me that i will no longer be able to buy rx's for my FASST transmitter, but im still allowed to use what ive got?? i kinda have to agree with cactus in that i have been using futaba 2.4 almost since it came out and have quite a bit of money tied up in my RC equipment. i have plenty of gear for just now but if i cant buy replacement rx as and when i need them, it will effectively make my tx obsolete and worthless as i will not be able to sell it on.
am i understanding this right??


All old equipment is "grandfathered", meaning that everything sold before the date the legislation comes in to effect is perfectly legal to use. Laws  usually don't/can't apply retrospectively, as in the this case. A good example is cars, where every car on the road would become illegal the day a new emission regulation came in to effect.  This is not the case, of course.

The problem people might be worried about is if you do an update on your TX so it works with post legislation equipment, will it mean the old spec stuff stops working. It seems in the case of futaba, this is not the case.  But you don't HAVE to update your TX as it is grandfathered as well, the reason you probably want to is that new spec RXs won't/mightn't work with it. 

It looks like with futaba if you update your TX, you old RXs will still work. I guess the change to the firmware is not massive or fundamental (protocol is basically the same, one would imagine).  With the Frsky stuff is that when you update the RF module the old receivers still work (albeit you need to update the newer RX types to retain full functionality).


itsme

That is not actually the case. I have a set of in-ear monitors which cost in excess of £700 ten years ago. From two years ago it became illegal to use them as the frequency was needed for 4G. I still use them, but could be prosecuted. So no grandfather's rights there.