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Only electric new cars from 2040

Started by Michael_Rolls, July 26, 2017, 07:15:22 am

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0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

itsme

Quote from: FlyinBrian on July 27, 2017, 11:18:05 am
Posted by: itsme " Nuclear fusion is only decades away so endless electricity will be available too."

I think I first heard that about thirty years ago :''
still true.....


Michael_Rolls

Quote from: FrankS on July 27, 2017, 12:18:36 pm
https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/modelx might do, but this probably would http://www.mitsubishi-cars.co.uk/outlander/explore-phev.aspx?gclid=Cj0KCQjwnubLBRC_ARIsAASsNNnJL0Y-lnZGg9jZeswVGJYhN05BvwNwYtXkbbmW-52KJR2mno74rtoaArCPEALw_wcB or https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/e-nv200.html

I see that the Tesla claims a range of 351 miles from its 100KWh battery, whilst the Outlander claims 33 miles from its 9.8KWh battery. OK<,so the Outlander is a hybrid, but 33 miles? Looks like they are missing a trick or two. How come the Tesla can claim such a tremendous range, far more, as far as I am aware, than any other electric on the market?
Mike
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend

FrankS

Quote from: Michael_Rolls on July 27, 2017, 14:37:15 pm
I see that the Tesla claims a range of 351 miles from its 100KWh battery, whilst the Outlander claims 33 miles from its 9.8KWh battery. OK<,so the Outlander is a hybrid, but 33 miles? Looks like they are missing a trick or two. How come the Tesla can claim such a tremendous range, far more, as far as I am aware, than any other electric on the market?
Mike


The Mitsubishi battery is a 1/10th the capacity 9.8 kwh vs 100 kwh than the Tesla one, and a bit heavier and less aerodynamic, but it has a petrol engine for the range. The first Leafs came out with a 18 kwh battery and a range of under 100 miles, they've now upgraded to a larger capacity battery and claiming upto 200 miles.

keithupnorth

Quote from: itsme on July 26, 2017, 18:31:11 pm
At least it will bankrupt the bloody arabs!  :ev


Hmm maybe not, no cars no oil, means a premium for camel jockeys.


KW

Michael_Rolls

Quote from: FrankS on July 27, 2017, 15:39:05 pm
The Mitsubishi battery is a 1/10th the capacity 9.8 kwh vs 100 kwh than the Tesla one, and a bit heavier and less aerodynamic, but it has a petrol engine for the range. The first Leafs came out with a 18 kwh battery and a range of under 100 miles, they've now upgraded to a larger capacity battery and claiming upto 200 miles.

And presumably the larger capacity batteries will take longer to charge? What is the relevance of teh aerodynamics of a battery? Is it out in the slipstream?
Mike
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend

FrankS

Quote from: Michael_Rolls on July 27, 2017, 17:51:31 pm
And presumably the larger capacity batteries will take longer to charge? What is the relevance of teh aerodynamics of a battery? Is it out in the slipstream?
Mike


:embarassed:I meant the car was more aerodynamic not the battery  :D

Michael_Rolls

Ah - with you - yes, their advert claimed that and looking at the two vehicles, I can well believe it. Must admit that the Tesla does look a fancy piece of goods!
Mike
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend

paulinfrance

I sat in a Tesla last year, 100.000€ for that load of crap  :-X no thanks, f***k the end of the world, I am keeping
my diesel, it will probably make the world end quicker by 0.1 milliseconds,,,  :''
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

FlyinBrian

Quote from: wunwinglow on July 27, 2017, 11:52:26 am
The crucial thing is will these ecectrickery vehicles be big enough to carry my 1/4 scale models to the field?😮


Only if said 1/4 scale models are electric!
Basic Research is what I do - when I don't know what I'm doing!.

keithupnorth

Quote from: paulinfrance on July 27, 2017, 19:16:25 pm
I sat in a Tesla last year, 100.000€ for that load of crap  :-X no thanks, f***k the end of the world, I am keeping
my diesel, it will probably make the world end quicker by 0.1 milliseconds,,,  :''


Just had a go of an Audi W12 so I cant disagree with you.

KW

SMF

QuoteI sat in a Tesla last year, 100.000€ for that load of crap  :-X no thanks, f***k the end of the world, I am keeping
my diesel, it will probably make the world end quicker by 0.1 milliseconds,,,  :''


At last somebody with the balls to say it ass it is.I also will never own a scalectrix car. Big changes need to be made in everyting involved with this idea before it becomes anywhere near practical.

paulinfrance

It's about time Our governments showed  the example !

Mode 2 THE only way to fly

JimG

Quote from: FlyinBrian on July 27, 2017, 19:49:19 pm
Only if said 1/4 scale models are electric!


With the option of using their batteries to increase the car's range.

Jim
Jim Gill
Dundee Model Aircraft Club

FrankS

Quote from: SMF on July 28, 2017, 07:21:49 am
At last somebody with the balls to say it ass it is.I also will never own a scalectrix car. Big changes need to be made in everyting involved with this idea before it becomes anywhere near practical.


23 years ago rc electric flight was very niche and glow ruled, many said that electric would never catch on.

Steve Lewin

Quote from: SMF on July 28, 2017, 07:21:49 am
At last somebody with the balls to say it ass it is.I also will never own a scalectrix car. Big changes need to be made in everyting involved with this idea before it becomes anywhere near practical.

I probably won't own an electric either. But that's because I'm already old and probably won't see 2040.

But given the rate of technological change it's inevitable that there WILL be big changes in the next 23 years so by then it may well be completely practical. We might even have invented small scale cold fusion so burning muck out of the ground will just seem completely stupid.

The thing about the future is we don't know exactly what will be but we do know it's going to turn up whether we like it or not.

Steve

Andy J

Quote from: FrankS on July 28, 2017, 08:35:46 am
23 years ago rc electric flight was very niche and glow ruled, many said that electric would never catch on.


And by the mid 2000s most people had some sort of electric model, these days electric is probably outnumbering IC at most clubs.    Around here electric cars are starting to become popular, BMW i3s and Nissan Leafs are not uncommon and I see one or two Tesla S's also our local TNT depot has been running electric 7.5t trucks since 2010, personally by 2040 I'm pretty confident that electric cars will work pretty well for most of us, as for range, the current Tesla Model S 100D will do just over 300 miles fully charged and that's at 70mph with the aircon on, ok that's Tesla's own figures but most people would want to stop for a rest after 200 miles and they claim a 30 min charge will get you 170 miles, if that's where we are now, where will be in another 23 years with the right investment and political will?
When you're chewing on lifes grissle don't grumble give a whistle and this'll make things turn out f

meharibear

July 28, 2017, 13:48:35 pm #57 Last Edit: July 28, 2017, 13:50:55 pm by meharibear
Quote from: Michael_Rolls on July 27, 2017, 14:37:15 pm
I see that the Tesla claims a range of 351 miles from its 100KWh battery, whilst the Outlander claims 33 miles from its 9.8KWh battery. OK<,so the Outlander is a hybrid, but 33 miles? Looks like they are missing a trick or two. How come the Tesla can claim such a tremendous range, far more, as far as I am aware, than any other electric on the market?
Mike
The Tesla is a new design from the ground up rather than a conventional car fitted with an electric motor and batteries.  It uses lithium technology with the batteries being integrated into the chassis so has a low C of G and little or no internal space wasted on them.  In real life I think that 250 miles is a sensible mileage to assume.  It can also recharge very quickly IF you have the special charger connection rather than a standard 13amp socket!
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened.  (Terry Pratchett)


paulinfrance

Quote from: FrankS on July 28, 2017, 15:32:05 pm
Or next year one of these https://www.jaguar.co.uk/jaguar-range/i-pace-concept-car/index.html?cm_mmc=PPC_Google-_-Jaguar_UK-_-PN_ALON_EXA_I-PACE_2-_-jaguar+i+pace+range&gclid=CjwKEAjwwevLBRCGy-Sp-fDKjF8SJACpwCb3sLdOLoysP_DzedVYwFuHjiwTrBGXU0PEnW9eHTTNrxoCpWTw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CPqS5-yXrNUCFQ6IUQodHLgMBg, but 400 HP and 700 Nm or torque will mean the performance isn't up there with the Audi W12  :''


How can a 'sports car' be a 5 seater ?, as for 250 miles on a tesla, I don't want to stop over 5 times to go to London from my place with a 100.000€ car, for that price I want a plane !.
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

Michael_Rolls

Well, leaving aside the amount of odds and ends we need to transport when going down to the kids - a tad  over 500 miles - to 'only' have to wait 90 minutes to achieve an 80% recharge doesn't exactly thrill me.
OK, when you look at how electric powered models have progressed over the last 20 years, all these expectations may well come to pass. OTOH, I remember the claims that by 2000 we would have a colony on the moon, the working week would be down to 3 days a week but with people better off, food would be grown hydroponically to eliminate hunger, etc - well they worked out well, didn't they? Just because somebody claims that it can be achieved - remember the words of the song - 'It ain't necessarily so'!
Mike ,
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend

FrankS

Mike these are possible if there was the political will, and they are saying 40 mins for an 80% charge not 90 mins, tesla say 75 mins to 100% with a suitable charge station.

But the thread title is a bit misleading, it says only electric cars, what the government have proposed is that no Petrol or Diesel only cars will be sold by 2040 (note 2140, not sure what it will be then  :'') so the bulk will be hybrids. The aim is to reduce pollution in towns where it affects peoples health due to the concentration, so the hybrids will switch to electric running then and use the engine when on a long run.

paulinfrance

Quote from: FrankS on July 28, 2017, 20:31:34 pm
Mike these are possible if there was the political will, and they are saying 40 mins for an 80% charge not 90 mins, tesla say 75 mins to 100% with a suitable charge station.

so the hybrids will switch to electric running then and use the engine when on a long run.


I did remember the Top Gear crew doing a run with the Hybrid Bmw, it didn't exactly go well, and the 'green' Toyota Prius seemed to run at
8.5 l/100 klm which is more than diesels in it's category, which do less than 6l/100 klm
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

itsme

I think they are looking at the wrong culprits. Taxis and buses are huge polluters. I agree that a total ban on diesels in town centres would be beneficial, but you would have to include lorries, taxis and buses in that. Also, it is all weather dependant. Out in the suburbs and country the breeze will clear the atmosphere, only problem would be a lack of wind. And we know that Britain is a very windless country, dont we?

Andy J

Quote from: itsme on July 29, 2017, 07:41:49 am
I think they are looking at the wrong culprits. Taxis and buses are huge polluters. I agree that a total ban on diesels in town centres would be beneficial, but you would have to include lorries, taxis and buses in that. Also, it is all weather dependant. Out in the suburbs and country the breeze will clear the atmosphere, only problem would be a lack of wind. And we know that Britain is a very windless country, dont we?


I think the aim is to reduce the levels of toxic emissions in urban areas, which banning private cars will massively contribute to, leaving certain vehicles out of that ban such as lorries and busses is probably because the technology may not be at a point where you can make a HGV doing high miles daily, or a bus  fully electric, however, no reason why they couldn't build them as hybrids, most of the Oxford busses are currently Hybrid, can't for the life of me see why Taxis should be exempt.  Also, what about Hydrogen Cell technology, fuel cell cars are already on the market though admittedly there are a limited number of places to fill up at the moment and there are questions about producing the hydrogen, however on the plus side, the cars do not need to be put on charge, they just need to be topped up in a similar way to a conventional car.  Just question, does the ban on petrol and diesel also apply to LPG?
When you're chewing on lifes grissle don't grumble give a whistle and this'll make things turn out f

paulinfrance

Why can't they just filter the Diesels exhaust's,  :co  it's been nearly 50 years since a man was put on the moon,
and diesels aren't exactly rocket science,,  :banghead:
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

itsme

Quote from: paulinfrance on July 29, 2017, 10:12:46 am
Why can't they just filter the Diesels exhaust's,  :co  it's been nearly 50 years since a man was put on the moon,
and diesels aren't exactly rocket science,,  :banghead:
they are fitting some buses with particulate filters. I agree, its not something too difficult.

Andy J

Quote from: itsme on July 29, 2017, 10:18:14 am
they are fitting some buses with particulate filters. I agree, its not something too difficult.


Or get out of the mindset of thinking everything needs to be powered by fossil fuels, there are alternative technologies, they just need perfecting, however, Britain used to be great because we invented stuff, we have 23 years to work on this, to put things in perspective, the technology behind Hitlers V2 missiles helped put man in to space and ultimately, 24 years after the end of WW2, put man on the moon and I'm sure at that time, many would've thought it impossible to have a personal, handheld device which worked as a phone and a mini computer with more processing power the NASA's computer used in the space program. 
When you're chewing on lifes grissle don't grumble give a whistle and this'll make things turn out f

paulinfrance

It's a problem of the younger generation just sitting on their ar***s using what our generation invented, :''
it's about time they got their finger out and invented something,,  :banghead:
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

itsme

Quote from: paulinfrance on July 29, 2017, 12:00:33 pm
It's a problem of the younger generation just sitting on their ar***s using what our generation invented, :''
it's about time they got their finger out and invented something,,  :banghead:
I'm sure someone will design an app...

FrankS

Quote from: paulinfrance on July 29, 2017, 12:00:33 pm
It's a problem of the younger generation just sitting on their ar***s using what our generation invented, :''
it's about time they got their finger out and invented something,,  :banghead:


What you mean like the new material developed in the US that converts CO2 to CO by photosynthesis,  https://phys.org/news/2017-07-light-activated-catalyst-co2-ingredients-fuel.html

As for particulate filters on diesels, then yes they probably could remove the PM10 particles, but the filter would need to be quite large, you could probably remove the NOx too, but by then the cost starts to make electric vehicles look quite attractive.

lanicopter

Quote from: paulinfrance on July 28, 2017, 16:22:11 pm
How can a 'sports car' be a 5 seater ?, as for 250 miles on a tesla, I don't want to stop over 5 times to go to London from my place with a 100.000€ car, for that price I want a plane !.


Perhaps that's the point. Cars, if they have to exist, should be for shorter journeys. WIth one person in they're woefully inefficient so it makes sense to limit them to "local" journeys that they can conduct cleanly (i.e. no air pollution).

If you need to travel further afield, consider a train or a plane, both of which have significant savings over a car based on the pollution per person.

Consider a bus ... 52 people on a smokey old diesel is less polluting than 52 people driving their own cars.
Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

lanicopter

I'm looking at my usage of my car over the last week.

Monday, meeting 80 miles away = 160 miles ... chargeable at home, at meeting point and at home again.
Tuesday, couple of trips the shops = approx 40 miles round trip, more than adequate
Wednesday - didn't use the car
Thursday - shop, 10 mile round trip
Friday shops, 60 mile roundtrip

It's only really "out of the ordinary" journeys that I'd struggle with like going on a road trip and that doesn't happen all that much - 250 miles could get me pretty far and if I had to stop for a cuppa for 30 minutes I wouldn't be that bothered to be honest.

I would, however, be annoyed if I travelled 250 miles and found an "out of order" sign on the plug...
Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

itsme

And my caravan? What does that do to the mix?

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FrankS

Quote from: itsme on July 29, 2017, 20:21:11 pm
And my caravan? What does that do to the mix?

Sent from my SM-A300FU using Tapatalk


Now the caravan manufactures could add extra batteries which could be used to power the caravan or send power to the car for more range.

itsme

Now there's an idea. A trailer full of spare battery power...

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paulinfrance

Quote from: lanicopter on July 29, 2017, 19:38:56 pm


Consider a bus ... 52 people on a smokey old diesel is less polluting than 52 people driving their own cars.


Where the hell have you seen 52 people in a bus ?, in your dreams ?,, Over here 5 or even 10 ?, no buses out side of school holidays,,  :banghead: and 'silly' hours,,
A week in the south of France, into town for a few things, the electric charging station is out of order 'as usual' then down to the model field, I need an estate so I get back home, electric cuts again ' the French outback'  :''and manage 80% charge,  down to Marseille airport to pick family up, charging station hogged by holiday makers off to Benidorm for a week ( free parking at the charging station ) push the car home 100 klm's  ??? a trip to the hills with my glider, battery's flat as it's too far and no charging points, so I push it home 'again'  :-\ down to the beach I just make it on a charge, only 2 charging stations, both taken with kids twizzy's push the car till I finally find a charging station, 1/2 hour wait for 80% charge, get back on the road but by this time they are all blocked and at 35° the air conditioning has flattened the battery, so back to pushing it home  :-\ I have to see my family in Amiens, 850 klm's, 5 stops to charge, not an 8.1/2h journey but 2 days, sleep in the car as  only slow chargers and one out of order,, get hiked off by the Police for sleeping in my car on a charging station parking to check that I am not a terrorist, they find my racing drone in the boot and give me a quick skirt of gas and handcuff me, a trip down to the cells for the night, but it's Friday so they forget about me only to be woken up on Monday morning, 'informing' me the my car has been towed away under some safety act, and as on English plates :'' and was now in 'pieces' at the customs office in Paris 500 klm's away,,

Anyway what would it cost to recycle my Diesel, rebuild an electric car and recycle that ? not forgetting that the battery's would probably last around 5 years ?,  :study:
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

paulinfrance

Quote from: itsme on July 30, 2017, 07:19:45 am
Now there's an idea. A trailer full of spare battery power...

Sent from my SM-A300FU using Tapatalk


Yes, enough so that they can't get them off of the camp sites and keep them off of the roads,,  :banghead:
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

Andy J

Quote from: FrankS on July 29, 2017, 21:46:36 pm
Now the caravan manufactures could add extra batteries which could be used to power the caravan or send power to the car for more range.


I'm sure a lot of motorists would be happy at then thought of less caravans on the road  :''

On a serious note, the thing conveniently missed by the media in order sensationalise the story is that the document say's ban on 'conventional' diesel and petrol cars, that could mean more development in Hybrids and cleaner LPG and Bio Fuels along side electric only.
When you're chewing on lifes grissle don't grumble give a whistle and this'll make things turn out f

itsme

The media miss nothing. It's done deliberately to sensationalise. There is no way even 10% of cars will be fully electric by then. I agree it will be all hybrid, unless the much hyped fuel cell can be made usable for the mass market. There are already people decrying that as cracking air to produce hydrogen would change the balance of the atmosphere.

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