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Trying to be Greenish ?

Started by The Stig, March 20, 2018, 15:15:33 pm

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The Stig

At new year it was the time for me to think of a "new " car .  So I thought best go electric , I borrowed an  i3 from BMW and thought it was great .
However its range was not  friendly to my modus operandii., so until  the range of these  electric cars improves I have ruled them out ,
I drive a 200+ hp diesel which over the last few years has returned 40.3 mpg, But diesels have a bad name ? So this time I went for a petrol  fearing the wrath of the ill informed  government taxing diesel cars off the road .
I put on a green hat and  chose  basically the same car as I had  but now with a petrol engine.,just slightly less HP.

so what have I done !    The petrol version does 28.4 mpg !!    so basically if I do the same mileage  I shall be putting out at least 1/3 MORE  nasty  stuff than before , ( wether it be CO or Nox related  ) .

I feel there is not enough publicity in favour of the frugal DIESEL .

cheers   

paulinfrance

Green,,,,  ;D 
Electric cars = nuclear power stations,
Petrol = co2,
Diesel = particles,
get your bike out,
As for pollution =  it's too little too late,,,   :''
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

itsme

Quote from: The Stig on March 20, 2018, 15:15:33 pm
At new year it was the time for me to think of a "new " car .  So I thought best go electric , I borrowed an  i3 from BMW and thought it was great .
However its range was not  friendly to my modus operandii., so until  the range of these  electric cars improves I have ruled them out ,
I drive a 200+ hp diesel which over the last few years has returned 40.3 mpg, But diesels have a bad name ? So this time I went for a petrol  fearing the wrath of the ill informed  government taxing diesel cars off the road .
I put on a green hat and  chose  basically the same car as I had  but now with a petrol engine.,just slightly less HP.

so what have I done !    The petrol version does 28.4 mpg !    so basically if I do the same mileage  I shall be putting out at least 1/3 MORE  nasty  stuff than before , ( wether it be CO or Nox related  ) .

I feel there is not enough publicity in favour of the frugal DIESEL .

cheers
They have it all wrong, as the new diesels are far better than petrol for pollution. Unless you live in a busy town a diesel is far better.

Sent from my SM-A300FU using Tapatalk


NickK

Quote from: paulinfrance on March 20, 2018, 18:45:58 pm
Green,,,,  ;D 
Electric cars = nuclear power stations,



Precisely you wont get anything much greener  :nananana:
Who says ventriloquism is Gollocks

Bad Raven

Electric Cars?   Their Full Cycle pollution? Including the pollution caused in car and battery production and trying to add the infrastructure and power sources?

OK,so lets link to another issue. North Sea Gas, and what to do as it runs out.  Fracking? NIMBY.........

What about the Fuel Cell powered car on Hydrogen?

Convert the gas network to Hydrogen?  Infrastructure then pretty much available for usual gas use (change like the change from coal gas to NSG, just jetting?? 

Then.........Fuel Cell Cars?

I'm not advocating anything here, not in any position to, but have been reading a bit on all the alternatives, though ALL is maybe the wrong word . 

All I think is that Tesla cars and their ilk with 7000 plus batteries are an engineering disaster waiting to happen, even more than properly managed Hydrogen (or are we stuck with rejuvenating the Hindenburg disaster and walking away forever??)

It concerns me that there seems to be a disconnect and lack of people ooking at and able to affect the whole issues we face.
The user formerly know as Bravedan........... Well if Prince can do it....................

itsme

Seems as if the world is bumbling along until fusion power arrives. I have a working Dilithium chamber here but nobody is listening.

wunwinglow

One of the little publicised issues is that about 50% of pollution from motor vehicles comes from tyre, brake and road surface wear particles. There are a number of scientific studies which have been carried out on this topic.
The move to encourage electric vehicles ignores this, in addition to the other factors mentioned by others.

The Saint. (Owen)

Electrickery is the work of the devil.
Proper aeroplanes are powered by engines.

Bad Raven

Going back to the OP................  I run a 2009 2 litre Diesel. As I understand it, later cars "may" emit lower particulates, but return worse MPG. It has sailed through every MOT at well below the figures for its year, total miles over 85k miles now, and only service costs. Still original disc pads and exhaust.

I can easily replace it, but with what? My annual mileage has dropped massively since 2015 and now includes proportionally more short journeys. However, I need a load lugger and its interior space for its external dimensions, at which it excels.  If I replace it, it will likely be unsold and certainly fetch a poor sale return due the diesel scare stories and will likely be scrapped early if I sell, wasting some of the energy used in its construction.

No matter how badly I drive it (for acceleration performance, not speeding) it returns in excess of 42mpg, usually nearer 48mpg, this in the only too often traffic dense SE.  Any sort of clear run easily clears beyond 55mpg and 60mpg is attainable without pretending you are towing a caravan or wearing a trilby hat.

A friend (well, he was!!) bought the BMW Mini Hybrid with engine FWD and electric RWD.  He is ecstatic that his regular short journey "can almost recover the battery charge", but won't say what his MPG figure is. Whatever, its not going to be great, and its already poor load ability is badly compromised by the boot "full" of motor and batteries!

A local bus service has gone Hybrid, the diesel cutting in at 11mph (ish). I use it quite a bit. Like all these stop/start vehicles, I sit there wondering on the mechanical strain of such urban operation when an engine start is likely every 300 metres after bus stops even if its 06:00 on a Sunday and the roads are passably clear.

Where ARE we heading? Does anybody really know???
The user formerly know as Bravedan........... Well if Prince can do it....................

paulinfrance

Quote from: itsme on March 20, 2018, 20:28:22 pm
Seems as if the world is bumbling along until fusion power arrives. I have a working Dilithium chamber here but nobody is listening.



Not so easy, they are a special Klingon quality,

1.56 minutes in,,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRdgVa1glLU


Make them yourself,,,,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtzF6aUtBFw
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

Michael_Rolls

Quote from: Bad Raven on March 21, 2018, 06:31:33 am

.Where ARE we heading? Does anybody really know???

I very much doubt it. The whole question of pollution - not just that caused by motor vehicles - is so complex, so inter-related that I seriously doubt if anybody has the ability nor the information access to provide sensible answers. In the meantime, I intend to adopt a head in the sand policy and ignore all 'expert' advice - much of which is slanted - and just do what I want - or am allowed to do by legislation - in the few years left to me (at least, I hope it's years!)
Mike
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend

paulinfrance

March 21, 2018, 07:44:19 am #11 Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 09:40:47 am by paulinfrance
Man is going over the precipice, it's too late, over here 30% of birds have disappeared due to farmers insecticides, Monsanto are still poisoning us all over the World, the only thing that seems to matter to politicians (  power ) and big companies is MONEY,,,  :-\
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

itsme

Its self fulfilling. The planet is safe, we cant break it, in a million years there may be no trace we were ever here. If we are to save the human race then a vast reduction in birth rate is needed. When I was born there were 2.4 billion people in the world. Its now over seven...its simply unsustainable. Indonesia, China etc are the most polluting, whatever we do as a country is a drop in the ocean.

paulinfrance

Yes, China thanks to you and your Hobby King orders,,,, Lol,,

Ok a bit over the top, :''  But then again,,,
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

Michael_Rolls

My dad was born in 1903. There were a bit less than 1 billion people on the planet. WW2 caused the premature deaths of over 60 million people - despite which the population has more than doubled since 1945. Let's face it - we can't win, I'm old enough not to care very much - and not having had any children - it's not MY fault (I do tend to refer to Niall and Victoria as 'our' children, but in truth they are Veronica's children, my step children not that I love them any the less).Properly managed (there's a laugh!) the resources of our planet will continue to cope with our ever increasing population for a while - the big question will be how long will 'a while' turn out to be? The size of the planet in finite. Therefore its resources are finite. On the other hand, the ability of the human race to procreate seems to be limitless - go figure! Eventually there will come a time when the food will run out, no matter how clever folk have been in increasing its availability. Then what?
Mike
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend

itsme

Quote from: Michael_Rolls on March 21, 2018, 14:41:50 pm
My dad was born in 1903. There were a bit less than 1 billion people on the planet. WW2 caused the premature deaths of over 60 million people - despite which the population has more than doubled since 1945. Let's face it - we can't win, I'm old enough not to care very much - and not having had any children - it's not MY fault (I do tend to refer to Niall and Victoria as 'our' children, but in truth they are Veronica's children, my step children not that I love them any the less).Properly managed (there's a laugh!) the resources of our planet will continue to cope with our ever increasing population for a while - the big question will be how long will 'a while' turn out to be? The size of the planet in finite. Therefore its resources are finite. On the other hand, the ability of the human race to procreate seems to be limitless - go figure! Eventually there will come a time when the food will run out, no matter how clever folk have been in increasing its availability. Then what?
Mike
It is supposed to be levelling off...and the latest figures are telling us that male sperm is reducing to the point where we could actually die out...a good thing for this rock we are on, but without humanity there is no point to the universe! Well from our point of view that is. The species from other worlds may have different ideas. Surely man can get to a point where he actually does what needs to be done?  Incidentally, dont forget that while your Dad was alive we had WW!- 37million dead, and the flu outbreak that left 20-40 million dead. So thats 140 million in the 20th century without all the other wars. And still we breed...but worry not, the Doomsday clock is now at two minutes to midnight!

Bad Raven

The user formerly know as Bravedan........... Well if Prince can do it....................

The Stig

After watching that vid from Bad Raven , I have decided not to be a "Cult " member and my next car will be steam or another diesel !

cheers

I would actually like a Tesla though !

Bad Raven

Quote from: The Stig on March 21, 2018, 22:39:55 pm
I would actually like a Tesla though !


Please pass address and I'll send soap and instructions.

There are an increasing number of Tesla round here (only what you'd expect for this overpaid blindly trend following territory).

The commonest model ATM is the usual US oversized thing, wider than half the space of most of our urban road infrastructure, slowing or stopping opposing traffic like mobile "sleeping policemen", causing more pollution in their wake. Add that to all the other reasons they are a bad idea!   An "S" is 4976x1964

Most of our local roads are now clogged by parked vehicles, many over width SUV/Crossover (nearly all black of course). Until a couple of years back there were gaps to get past each other, but this no longer exists.

Parking for our local commuter station now extends for at least a mile in every direction and every side road is full to the brim.

Five years ago the two "main" roads of my area ("B" status), rarely had parked vehicles. Now they are parking both sides and the width left does not allow two cars to pass of more than Golf proportions.

I have been on buses that regularly drop up to three minutes getting past what are now all day every day choke points. What does THAT do to local pollution?

A few years ago true, but a Ford Cortina Mk 1 was the arch typical family sized car, 4267x1648.

Even the "small" Nissan Leaf is 4490x1788, and the common round here Kia Sportage is 4480x1855.

We have not widened our roads nor kept them free from parked vehicles. Across the road from me live two people with four vehicles, and they never use their front parking nor their garage for parking.  This is not that untypical. In 1981 when I moved here everyone used their garage and parked cars in the road were rare. Now most have removed their garages for the great God "Extension" and moving up and down the road takes twice the time it did, so what does THAT do to pollution?

And our Mayor wants to build "many more homes"???    :banghead: :banghead:

The user formerly know as Bravedan........... Well if Prince can do it....................

Michael_Rolls

Why is it that cars seem to be getting ever wider. A few years ago I had a Citroen XM. Nice car, bit of a squeeze to get into the garage, but after all it was a big car, right? It was 70.6" wide, nearly six feet.
At the moment I am driving a hire car, a Golf 7 and was surprised at how careful I had to be getting in and out of the garage with it. The original Golf was just 63.4" wide, seven inches narrower than the XM. Just checked - the current Golf is 70.8" wide - actually fractionally WIDER than the XM. Why? It's not supposed t be a big car.
Mike
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend

paulinfrance

An Excellent report on Bad Ravens post,

As said in the video, no one (politicians ) want to bother with the old smoking vehicles, tractors, JCB's, Lorries and even Diesel powered trains  belching out huge clouds of black smoke   :-X
In Paris they are closing down the roads alongside the Seine as an ecological solution, which has done the opposite, clogged up the roads even more,,

locally at Montpellier, they have gone building mad, what was a small town in the 80's is now a mega town
with concrete blocks springing up every week ( the Concrete Mafia ) and the roads, don't even think about it, 35 years later nothing has changed but with half of them are blocked off by the tram system, it's quicker to walk or take your bike. :''

We are going into a brick wall at 200 klm/h,, with no brakes. :banghead:

Mode 2 THE only way to fly

Bad Raven

This'll read like a history lesson, but bear with me please. Buses are Green, they carry many more people for less road space used, Right?

Back pre and immediately post war Buses were limited to 7' 6" wide (I'll keep to "old money" for comparison, and remember back then there was FAR less private traffic, moving or parked). Seating was two/walkway/two with sideways single depth each side over the wheel arches.

Eventually the Traffic Commissioners allowed the width to rise to 8' (and the length to extend). Seating two/walkway/two.  This width was regulated as to route availability.

In the 70's, with far more private traffic/parking, buses were allowed to be 8' 2.5". This was stated at the time as being needed due to disabled/pushchair requirements.

By the mid 90's, no 7' 6" Buses were being constructed.  Some local "country" routes in my area gained the dubious benefit of 8' 2.5" vehicles that bluntly just do not fit the roads/lanes in any practical way.

At the same time, further regulation and the perceived one man person operated need for dual doors for entry and egress on many if not most urban routes reduced the seating drastically. (And increased the "at stop" time, causing queues behind)

A typical double deck London bus of the 1950's carried 24 seated downstairs, and the conductor ensured fast boarding.  By the 90's the then arch typical London double decker carried LESS THAN 10 seated downstairs, even though 8.5" WIDER and longer. What seats there are, narrower and harder, are two/walkway/two.

Since 2015 I have done a lot of Bus travel. In that time, many hundreds of journeys, in both central, urban and country, I have only ONCE been on a bus that actually needed to provide wheelchair access/space. Space that is provided on all without alternative seating provision.  I have though seen lots of less than agile people thrown around by the constant braking and acceleration created by the overcrowded roads the bus no longer fits.

My daughter lives on a bus route, a long straight quite narrow road with two wheels on pavement parking bays both sides. As she and her neighbour have a sensible but seemingly unusual arrangement for the shared drive and park on their frontage clear of pavement (just), her road frontage is one of the few passing places. It's not a stop, but quite usual for the bus (usually well peopled) to have to wait up to a minute to get the clearance from opposing traffic to continue. It's sleeping policeman territory too, forcing low speeds and lots of acceleration.braking. What does THAT do for pollution?

Such is our Green "progress".

The user formerly know as Bravedan........... Well if Prince can do it....................

itsme

We are clogged up with cars. I have just been involved in a crash, caused by a young woman coming out of a side road with traffic parked both sides and tried to jump in to a space and clouted my drivers side passenger door. She was careless (and has admitted full responsibility) and its going to cost her dear, as a young driver. But the real blame is the thoughtless people who parked on the corner of the junction. I came across an old Mk 1 Cortina the other day and was amazed at how small it was. Nowadays a 'Mini' is hardly that.

Michael_Rolls

The original Mini was 120.2" long, 55" wide. The current Mini Hatch is 142" long, 66.5" wide - MINI?
Mike
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend

PDR

Quote from: Bad Raven on March 20, 2018, 20:01:22 pm
What about the Fuel Cell powered car on Hydrogen?

Convert the gas network to Hydrogen?  Infrastructure then pretty much available for usual gas use (change like the change from coal gas to NSG, just jetting?? 

Then.........Fuel Cell Cars?


Great. WHere do you get the hyrdogen from? It doesn't occur naturally on the planet - that which may once have been here has long since boiled off into space. Biohydrogen is a theoretical possibility which has yet to inspire the confidence that it works at all, let alone that it would scale to mass-production. So where does all this hydrogen come from?*

PDR

* Anyone who says "the truck from BOC at this point will get a slap!
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

EssJay

Where do you get the hydrogen from?
Well they appear to be getting a little nearer to doing it efficiently.

https://www.sciencealert.com/new-nanomaterial-can-pull-hydrogen-out-of-seawater-using-sunshine-alone
No trees were harmed by this post, but some electrons have been slightly inconvenienced

PDR

Two things - taking burned hydrogen (aka "water") and making it "unburned" doesn't involve a pocket emilia clarke. It means that you are putting AT LEAST as much energy into the unburning as you will get out from the burning. Even extremely efficient catalysis can't change that. And the amount of energy incident on any flat surface (even at the equator) averages to about a kW per sq m* at noon on a cloudless sunny day at the equator - at our lattitudes we're about half that even on cloudless days (count how many of those we've had recently). So that means the total "solar silluette" available on a typical car would produce les than 5bhp under ideal conditions - so the claim in that article that cars could unburn enough water to use as fuel is technically illiterate.

Secondly you can't just take the produced hydrogen and stick it in a bu cket until you need it. Storing hydrogen (be it pressurised, cryogenic, chemical or any permutation of same) involves significant plant and energy. You can't store hydrogen at room temperature and pressure - it's far, far too bulky for that. So again the article's claim that you could just develop excess and take it away in trucks is at best dubious.

PDR

*that's "per square meter at right angles to the line to the sun", which is why the next sentence qualifies this
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

Michael_Rolls

When things appear to be too good to be true............................................
Mike
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend

pooh

Quote from: Alan Smithie on March 26, 2018, 12:38:58 pm
So again the article's claim that you could just develop excess and take it away in trucks is at best dubious.

PDR


just a bit of humour

friend of mine is a hazchem driver, and was pulled over by a traffic police car. The WPC got out and started accusing my pal of driving without the usual hazard panels in place. He pointed out that he was empty but she would have none of it. (the open discharge port should have made it obvious) and started getting officious. "OK, you win, the tanks are full of glider fuel". The WPC started writing things down on her clipboard and walked round to the back of the truck. The police sergeant sitting in the passenger seat of the police car opened his window and said to my pal "Pi$$ off quick before she realises..." so he did, to see  in the rear-view mirror the WPC throw her clipboard onto the ground.
Confucious he say "more than one aircraft in the same airspace leads to structural failure"

PDR

Quote from: Michael_Rolls on March 26, 2018, 12:43:02 pm
When things appear to be too good to be true............................................


...you've been reading those Vote Leave leaflets again...

:ev

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

SteveBB

I have no idea what the answer is to medium/long term personal transportation that we can reasonably call 'green'. At the moment any 'green' end products has a very ungreen and in some cases socially very unhealthy origins. Cobalt for instance that goes into batteries..Kids of seven dig that out. Did you know?
But saying that, my grandad started digging coal aged 14 to go into power stations and heat homes...It was acceptable back then.

The energy and pollution generated to move the 'green' batteries around the planet to go into the vehicles more than offsets any advantage of the end product. Then the life span of said batteries and what to do with the old ones when a new one is needed.

As Pete said, hydrogen isn't the panacea that it could promise if the infrastructure, the generation and storage could be made cost efficiently and widely available. It is sort of springing up in California and Honda has a production vehicle in the showrooms, but it's very expensive, the filling stations to fill it with hydrogen not that widespread (But increasing) and long term, who knows?

In answer to Mike's question about car sizes, it's mainly because we're getting bigger, but also the safety features built in. Those multiple airbags have to go somewhere. I agree, the Mini is a ridiculous name for something the size of a Mk1 Transit. But we as drivers wanted safety above go faster stripes, Volvo invented airbags and made it a free access patent and the rest is history. There are cars now with airbags built in on the windscreen wiper line to stop the unsuspecting pedestrian going through the screen. These days it's far less common to get killed in a RTA than even say fifteen years ago.

Rimmer: Step up to Red Alert!
Kryten: Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb.

Michael_Rolls

Bicycles and rickshaws just have to be the answer!
Mike (oh, and sedan chairs)
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend

SteveBB

Quote from: Michael_Rolls on March 26, 2018, 16:26:02 pm
Bicycles and rickshaws just have to be the answer!
Mike (oh, and sedan chairs)



If Trump and the fat kid in NK have their way, a rickshaw will be a luxury.
Rimmer: Step up to Red Alert!
Kryten: Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb.

itsme


martinw

Quote from: EssJay on March 26, 2018, 12:14:18 pm
Where do you get the hydrogen from?


I believe that in the good old days when they had Zeppelins that needed filling with huge quantities of hydrogen, they produced it by passing steam through a container of red hot scrap iron. The oxygen bonded to the iron creating a pile of rust and the hydrogen was collected from the outlet.

No health and safety in those days of course

SteveBB

Quote from: martinw on March 26, 2018, 19:35:52 pm
I believe that in the good old days when they had Zeppelins that needed filling with huge quantities of hydrogen, they produced it by passing steam through a container of red hot scrap iron. The oxygen bonded to the iron creating a pile of rust and the hydrogen was collected from the outlet.

No health and safety in those days of course



PC gone mad eh?  :ev
Rimmer: Step up to Red Alert!
Kryten: Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb.

paulinfrance

Lets ( Me ) all look at it another way,  :co why the hell do we all need to drive 200 miles to do anything, and fly halfway around the world to eat chips get pi**ed and sit on a sunbed ( not my idea of a holiday )
maybe if we  ( you lot ) stopped winging and enjoyed a more simple ( ok, no comments on simple please ) life
we wouldn't be in this mess. :uk:
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

Michael_Rolls

Quote from: paulinfrance on March 27, 2018, 07:17:58 am
Lets ( Me ) all look at it another way,  :co why the hell do we all need to drive 200 miles to do anything, and fly halfway around the world to eat chips get pi**ed and sit on a sunbed ( not my idea of a holiday )
maybe if we  ( you lot ) stopped winging and enjoyed a more simple ( ok, no comments on simple please ) life
we wouldn't be in this mess. :uk:

An interesting quote from a Guardian article back in 2010. To get to the figure quoted there is some inspired guesswork going on - it is around twice the 'official' figure:-

>>There's not enough data to say for sure, but it seems likely that aviation's true impact in the UK is around 13%-15% of total greenhouse gas emissions. If that still sounds fairly low, compared with the massive amounts of attention heaped on aviation by climate change campaigners, bear in mind that most people in the UK don't regularly fly. The average British resident takes a short-haul leisure flight only every two years, and a long-haul leisure flight only every five years. In other words, the air travel of a minority of regular flyers causes a substantial slice of UK emissions.<<
So it's all the fault of the rich and/or big business - cue Corbyn
Mike (last time I flew on holiday was to Spain to visit new granddaughter January 2011 - the time before that would be 40 or more years ago - oh, and I flew in 2014 to attend a funeral in Essex and expect to do so again in a few weeks)
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend

PDR

March 27, 2018, 08:54:33 am #38 Last Edit: March 27, 2018, 09:03:33 am by Alan Smithie
Last time I flew was yesterday. The next time I'll fly will be Thursday. This has been the case for nearly a year, and will be the case for the forseeable future because I commute to my day job.

So I guess climate change is all my fault. Obviously I'm deliberately inflicting it on you plebs to indulge my evil and psychotic inner self. Who'd have thought it...

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

Michael_Rolls

Quote from: Alan Smithie on March 27, 2018, 08:54:33 am
Last time I flew was yesterday. The next time I'll fly will be Thursday. This has been the case for nearly a year, and will be the case for the forseeable future because I commute to my day job.

So I guess climate change is all my fault. Obviously I'm deliberately inflicting it on you plebs to indulge my evil and pschotic inner self. Who'd have thought it...

PDR

Well, not me for one
Mike  :ev :ev :ev :ev :ev :ev
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend