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More drone nonsense

Started by Michael_Rolls, December 20, 2018, 11:40:14 am

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paulinfrance

Quote from: lanicopter on December 25, 2018, 21:11:35 pm
What would you consider a flying wing or plane with RTH capability though?


It's still a drone,
Only an RC plane / helicopter / quadricopter, without RTF or camera on it isn't classed as a drone,
but still needs it's registration N° on it,,
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

cymaz

 :uk:
We won't we far behind ....come the summer/autumn. As I see it, anything that flies over 250g will need to be registered

itsme

Quote from: cymaz on December 26, 2018, 08:17:46 am
:uk:
We won't we far behind ....come the summer/autumn. As I see it, anything that flies over 250g will need to be registered
You have some evidence of this, I take it? Because I cant find any legislation like that.  :co

Michael_Rolls

Quote from: itsme on December 26, 2018, 08:21:15 am
You have some evidence of this, I take it? Because I cant find any legislation like that.  :co

I think you mean 'not yet'. Sadly, after the Gatwick hysteria/ cock-up - it would never surprise me.
Mike
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend

paulinfrance

Quote from: itsme on December 26, 2018, 08:21:15 am
You have some evidence of this, I take it? Because I cant find any legislation like that.  :co



OH WAKE UP, it must be in the press somewhere so it must be true,,,  :D
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

FrankS

Quote from: itsme on December 26, 2018, 08:21:15 am
You have some evidence of this, I take it? Because I cant find any legislation like that.  :co


Here https://www.gov.uk/government/news/new-drone-laws-bring-added-protection-for-passengers

"he new laws will also require owners of drones weighing 250 grams or more to register with the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) and for drone pilots to take an online safety test to ensure the UK's skies are safe from irresponsible flyers. These requirements will come into force on 30 November 2019."

At the moment the BMFA,LMA,SAA etc are pushing for an exemption from this for their members. BTW when the legislation says drone this covers all small unmanned aircraft.


Michael_Rolls

On another forum - not a modelling one - I have seen a post claiming that 'most' drones have infra red cameras - can't find anything to support such a claim - but are there drones with IR capability at the hobby end of the market?
Mike
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend

paulinfrance

Quote from: Michael_Rolls on December 26, 2018, 10:42:34 am
On another forum - not a modelling one - I have seen a post claiming that 'most' drones have infra red cameras - can't find anything to support such a claim - but are there drones with IR capability at the hobby end of the market?
Mike


Not on the hobby market, but you can buy them over here if you are a farmer,,
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

JohnP

Quote from: paulinfrance on December 25, 2018, 15:17:20 pm
...and the registration must be visible at 30cm ( a lot of F**g good that is )  :embarassed:


Intriguing...

I looked on the FAQs on the FFAM website,  and exactly as you say, "en France, le numéro d'enregistrement doit être apposé de façon à être visible à 30 cm."  That translates as "in France, the registration number must be attached in such a way as to be visible at a distance of 30 cms." 

So at a distance of 30 cm (about a foot) the number has to be visible.  It doesn't say it has to be readable - just visible.  It could be printed so small as to look like a full-stop from a foot away...

Similarly a car number plate could be "visible" from 1 km away,  but not readable. Seems utterly pointless!
Quantum est in fenestra canini ?

FrankS

The aim of the registration number is so the model can be tracked back to the owner if it is found (or brought down by anti-drone technology) and hasn't to be hidden on the model. It's not intended to be something that can be read from the ground.

For instance the drone they have found at Gatwick, if it had a registration on it they could have easily found the owner, it it hadn't  got a registration number then it's being flown illegally.

Hopefully we may be able use our BMFA/LMA number as the registration number.

firefox

And a criminal is going to put a number on their drone?

Like they are going to want to be traceable.
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool......

Michael_Rolls

Quote from: firefox on December 26, 2018, 14:16:54 pm
And a criminal is going to put a number on their drone?

Like they are going to want to be traceable.

Exactly - usual politician;s rubbish solution, Why do they continue to act as though criminals will obey the law?
Mike
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend

itsme

or worse still, put some innocent model flyers number on it.

FrankS

Bear in mind the current scheme was based on the theory that the majority of drone incidences were not malicious but based on users not being aware of the regulations, so the proposed registration scheme was to get users to register and pass an online exam which made sure they are aware of the rules.

Maybe after Gatwick they will need to rethink this and bring in something stronger, i.e. in future we will only be able to fly models from registered sites, then the authorities know anybody flying outside of these is acting unlawfully.

pooh

Quote from: Michael_Rolls on December 26, 2018, 14:19:48 pm
Exactly - usual politician;s rubbish solution, Why do they continue to act as though criminals will obey the law?
Mike


needn't be criminals, just simply people who don't care, don't know, don't like regulations, don't like politicians (form a queue behind me...)

but the pathetic lack of common sense in proposing registrations as a "cure" just shows what idiots we have in positions of supposed responsibility.

Probably a bit fascist, but the only solution is massively heavy sentences for anyone flying drones in a way that endangers life. We already have the legislation, just need a few high-profile cases pour encourager les autres
Confucious he say "more than one aircraft in the same airspace leads to structural failure"

itsme

Its a five year jail term- it needs to be used.

PDR

In the case in question there is a separate specific offence called something like "endangering an airport" which has a maximum of a life sentence and unlimited fines.

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

lanicopter

Quote from: FrankS on December 26, 2018, 14:59:17 pm
, i.e. in future we will only be able to fly models from registered sites, then the authorities know anybody flying outside of these is acting unlawfully.


Nah - flying sites are needed for larger planes, but there's noone who's going to join a club solely to fly a Bixler there.
Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

itsme

I know someone who gets his kicks flying around lonely hills and mountains taking pictures no one else has even seen. He does no harm, is nowhere near any area he should not fly and never needs to be 400 feet above. Why should he be restricted to a flying site because of the actions of morons? Make some highly public arrests and make examples of them, and it will all go away.

Bad Raven

Quote from: lanicopter on December 27, 2018, 10:08:12 am
Nah - flying sites are needed for larger planes, but there's noone who's going to join a club solely to fly a Bixler there.


SOOOOO far from my experience.
The user formerly know as Bravedan........... Well if Prince can do it....................

FrankS

Quote from: itsme on December 27, 2018, 10:15:35 am
I know someone who gets his kicks flying around lonely hills and mountains taking pictures no one else has even seen. He does no harm, is nowhere near any area he should not fly and never needs to be 400 feet above. Why should he be restricted to a flying site because of the actions of morons? Make some highly public arrests and make examples of them, and it will all go away.


Agree entirely, but todate they haven't caught a single person who's flown a drone near an airliner or airport.

But then again they don't have any hard evidence to identify the drone, I am surprised with the number of videos from full sized plane cabins that at least one have been video'd by now. I also can't understand why "dashcams" are not fitted to airliners so any sightings can be verified.

lanicopter

Quote from: Bad Raven on December 29, 2018, 08:06:41 am
SOOOOO far from my experience.


I mean those huge scale builds you get people putting together, or I could be completely wrong.
Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

itsme

Quote from: FrankS on December 29, 2018, 08:47:15 am
Agree entirely, but todate they haven't caught a single person who's flown a drone near an airliner or airport.

But then again they don't have any hard evidence to identify the drone, I am surprised with the number of videos from full sized plane cabins that at least one have been video'd by now. I also can't understand why "dashcams" are not fitted to airliners so any sightings can be verified.
They did find two crashed drones- a quite common occurrence I am told- so some people- sorry, morons- ARE flying over airports. A programme two years ago from Luton mentioned 'dozens' of crashed drones.

SteveBB

Quote from: FrankS on December 29, 2018, 08:47:15 am
Agree entirely, but todate they haven't caught a single person who's flown a drone near an airliner or airport.

But then again they don't have any hard evidence to identify the drone, I am surprised with the number of videos from full sized plane cabins that at least one have been video'd by now. I also can't understand why "dashcams" are not fitted to airliners so any sightings can be verified.


That would take some forethought and a camera fixed on a gimbal that can automatically track something fairly small maybe moving pretty rapidly in three axis with the airliner on approach or take off anywhere between 130/180 Knots.
Rimmer: Step up to Red Alert!
Kryten: Sir, are you absolutely sure? It does mean changing the bulb.

lanicopter

Finding the drones isn't the problem anyway, it's finding the operators. All of this nonsense about "bringing drones down" etc does nothing to solve the real problem which is finding and jailling the people flying those aircraft in those places.
Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

Phil_G

December 30, 2018, 19:47:31 pm #65 Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 20:07:31 pm by Phil_G
A locator could be made using a slowly-rotating directional aerial and a promiscuous receiver which cycles through all known R/C protocols. By checking received frames against known protocols it would be possible to distinguish the drone operator from any other 2.4g traffic.  His GUID could be captured and used as evidence. Three widely spaced locators like this could triangulate.  Surely its not a difficult task?   $%&

PDR

A whisper that I've heard is that they suspect/believe that the offending craft were flying autonomously, with no comms operating while over the airport.

That would make them difficult to track using the C2 signal.

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

itsme

Quote from: PDR on December 30, 2018, 21:31:51 pm
A whisper that I've heard is that they suspect/believe that the offending craft were flying autonomously, with no comms operating while over the airport.

That would make them difficult to track using the C2 signal.

PDR
that is quite scary. It would mean it was not a stupid act, but a deliberate attack.

meharibear

I am sure it was a deliberate attack.
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened.  (Terry Pratchett)

PDR

I think if the suspicion is correct I would describe it as a deliberate act rather than a deliberate attack as such - my belief is that it was a stupid/mischievous person rather than someone with seriously malicious intentions.

Programmed autonomous flight can be achieved with most of the DIY multicopter control systems where GPS sensors are included, although the builder would need to do some tweaks to the code (which is easily done - it's only arduino code).

But I'm not at liberty to discus this much further.

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

lanicopter

What's to discuss? You install Litchi and go to town. It's free, no programming required.

https://flylitchi.com/

Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

lanicopter

December 31, 2018, 11:21:39 am #71 Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 11:31:12 am by lanicopter
Example: NeverMindYourOwn uses Litchi to fly his drones over a military-controlled town while he hides in an abandoned building on the outskirts. The reason for this is so that he can show the footage to citizens who were forcibly removed from their homes many years ago.

The drone flies a pre-programmed mission without requiring control (although it can be overridden at any point).



Its interesting around 4:45 ... notice that once the drone is in the air, despite the high-gain microphone on the video camera the drone is completely silent while it hovers a few hundred feet up.

Also notice that with a basic video camera the person was able to zoom in and get a clear shot of the drone, something which for some reason was completely impossible for the police, military, press and citizens to do at Gatwick......... just saying......
Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

chaz2b

January 01, 2019, 09:53:53 am #72 Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 10:03:23 am by chaz2b
You must have had your volume turned down, I could hear it hovering with only four bars volume on my iPad. BTW, at 4.45 it's still on the ground.
What annoyed me was the complacency he shows when it goes off in its auto mode, laughing and stepping away from the controller !

Getting back to the "drone sightings", I do want to know what the size of drone they found, and at what distance were the sightings seen from.
I have four drones of varying sizes, and believe me, you don't have to fly far for them to get very tiny!

People who do not fly rc aircraft may not have the depth perception of small craft that we do, and therefore may perceive the sightings as being further away than they actually are.

We can all conjure up a hypothesis of what the fliers intention were flying so close to an airport, but until that person has been found and questioned, "rumour control"has the public well and truly grasped.
There are many roads to success,.....mine is currently being resurfaced! However, all detours have been removed and financial issues have been met....let's go fly!

PDR

Quote from: chaz2b on January 01, 2019, 09:53:53 am
Getting back to the "drone sightings", I do want to know what the size of drone they found, and at what distance were the sightings seen from.
I have four drones of varying sizes, and believe me, you don't have to fly far for them to get very tiny!

People who do not fly rc aircraft may not have the depth perception of small craft that we do, and therefore may perceive the sightings as being further away than they actually are.




PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

chaz2b

Are you implying that it was Dougal  who first reported the sighting ? Aww c'mon now Ted. I mean Peter.
One of my most favourite comedies.

Chaz2b
There are many roads to success,.....mine is currently being resurfaced! However, all detours have been removed and financial issues have been met....let's go fly!

andyone

To add to what Phil G said about capturing and identifying the GUID and type of radio used as evidence. However, for this to work radios would have to have their owners register their GUID or be caught with the identified Tx.
If instead the drone was under autonomous flight control, not using an R/C signal, but with GPS navigation and if it could be downed somehow then the RTH coordinates could be read from the flight controller. This would be much better than trying to follow the drone with binoculars.

A.

PDR

Of course the RTH location would almost certainly be a piece of common land, or other anonymous site, so it may not tell you much about the identity of the operator.

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

andyone

RTH data could prove very useful if the authorities could get there quickly or there are witnesses in the area.

Gaspin

120,000 people affected and no result as yet !! WTF

itsme

Quote from: andyone on January 01, 2019, 22:52:56 pm
RTH data could prove very useful if the authorities could get there quickly or there are witnesses in the area.
Get there quickly? thats a laugh. And as for witnesses, we have already seen that- "Joe Bloggs at number 8 is in to toy helicopters- so it has to be him, lock him up until he confesses"