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February 25, 2020, 19:06:17 pm

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January 7th 2019 - Drone Law Changes

Started by Bad Raven, January 08, 2019, 06:55:34 am

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0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.


itsme

Well, the BMFA and others have managed a small victory with the new regulations. Its now really just a tick box if you have an A cert and a tax, sorry fee of £9 a year paid to BMFA.

The CAA have just published the following update: https://www.caa.co.uk/Consumers/Unmanned-aircraft/Our-role/Drone-and-model-aircraft-registration/ which is provided in full below:

The UK's new Drone and Model Aircraft Registration and Education Scheme will go live on 5 November 2019 (please note that you cannot register before this date).

There will be two elements to the online system.

Anyone responsible for a drone or unmanned aircraft (including model aircraft) weighing between 250g and 20kg will need to register as an operator.  The cost for this will be £9 renewable annually.

Anyone flying a drone or unmanned aircraft (including model aircraft) weighing between 250g and 20kg will need to take and pass an online education package. This is free and renewable every three years.

Both of these requirements become law on 30 November 2019.

From 5 November 2019 the system will be available at Register-drones.caa.co.uk

For holders of current CAA permissions or exemptions for drone operations (e.g. such as the permission related to commercial operations as required in ANO article 94(5)) and model flyers holding an achievement certificate issued by a UK model aircraft association with a CAA reviewed achievement scheme:

Remote pilots flying in accordance with a permission, exemption or operational authorisation (e.g. such as the permission related to commercial operations as required in ANO article 94(5)) that has been issued to a named UAS operator by the CAA will be exempt from having to undertake the online education training and test.

Similarly, where a UK model aircraft association already has an established and CAA reviewed 'competency scheme', members who hold an appropriate achievement certificate or award (such as the BMFA 'A' certificate) will also be exempt from having to undertake the online education training and test.   

Any operators who are not covered under the conditions of a permission/exemption or do not hold a recognised association competency will need to complete the free online course.

To allow operators to demonstrate competence if challenged (for example by the police) the CAA will be issuing a formal exemption that can be used alongside existing permissions / achievements and any other relevant documents.  This exemption will be in place until 30 June 2020, when new regulations are expected.  We will be working with stakeholders in 2020 to put these into place.

For members of ARPAS-UK, British Model Flying Association (BMFA), Scottish Aeromodellers' Association (SAA), Large Model Association (LMA) and FPV UK

Members will not need to register as an operator with the CAA system if they are a current member of these associations. With permission [of individual members], the associations will collect the registration fee from members directly and supply their data to the CAA. This will take place initially by 31 January 2020 and an exemption from the need to register will be put in place by 30 November to cover association members until then.

The associations will issue further detailed guidance to their members in due course.  Please see www.arpas.co.uk, www.bmfa.org, www.fpvuk.org, www.largemodelassociation.com or www.saaweb.uk for further details.

Control line model aircraft flying

The CAA will be issuing an exemption meaning those flying control line model aircraft will not need to comply with the registration or education regulations.

 

ARPAS-UK and the BMFA have been working on behalf of their members, the other UK associations and the wider unmanned aircraft community to agree these changes with the DfT and the CAA since meeting with the Secretary of State for Transport on the 9th September.

David Phipps, BMFA CEO commented: we are grateful to the Secretary of State for Transport for his direct intervention in this matter which has allowed us to negotiate a more acceptable outcome for our community whilst enabling us to establish a much stronger relationship with the CAA and DfT in the process.  I would also like to take this opportunity to thank our members for their support of our campaign which was backed up by a significant number of MP's, the wider aviation community, the APPG for General Aviation and our special advisers (Cliff Whittaker and Roger Hopkinson MBE).  It is very much a case of 'United we Achieve'.


lanicopter

It's a £9 tax. It's not like it gives you anything more, except to pay for the database of potential suspects for crimes not yet committed. And even that's a push because those who commit the crimes are hardly likely to register first.

So before you claim it as a victory, think about what it is you're actually getting - because it isn't actually going to stop the activities that caused the laws to be changed in the first place nor is it going to ensure air safety.

The BMFA, in my view, are now simply tax collectors for the government. Instead of standing up for their members and saying "no, we won't pay your silly stealth tax because we have over 100 years of safe operation" you're now obliged to pay.

If people refuse to pay then they can no longer fly at a BMFA club. Imagine if you had been told you were only allowed to wear CAA branded footwear - would the £9 to cover those regulation flipflops have been paid as willingly? I suspect not - but the fact is you're not even getting a decent pair of shoes for your cash, you're simply being fleeced.

So no - not a victory. Sure you can still fly - but that means you can do the same thing you've always done, only now it costs you the best part of a tenner.

Sad.
Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

PDR

Well someone is certainly sad. But then the brainless whiners will always focus on the negatives while they have their childish tantrums.

If £9 a year is a problem for you then you shouldn't be in the hobby AT ALL - the money you spend on toys should be spent on your own family because they woulkd seem to be destitutde and deprived.

But you miss the principle point. If we actually pay the government for the right to fly then we have an arguable position ahead of all those who DON'T have to pay charges for their hobbies. We can argue this to planning consent hearings, showing that absolutely everyone who flies at the proposed site will have nationally accredited safety qualifications, so the council's risk of claims is mitigated and negligence claims become much less likely. It's also possible that our own insurance rates could reduce - in the same what that carrying a black box can reduce the insurance rates for young drivers.

But if you regard the whole business of paying £9 a year is more than you can stand I suggest you just give up the hobby and do something else. You won't be missed.

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

lanicopter

Lets leave all the childish "you can't afford 9 pounds hur hur hur" out of it. You're surely better than that.

You had an arguable position beforehand - there was zero requirement for regulation when you had over 100 years of flawless conduct to use as leverage in any discussion. You generally fly from pre-determined locations, with safety officers and a protocol for safe operation.

You're not paying for the right to fly. You already had that. What you're paying for is the register of potential criminal suspects, the privilege of being on it and the admin that goes into maintaining it - even though as a person and an organisation you have zero need for it.

Not to mention the additional administration it's going to cause the BMFA staff to have to maintain data on who has registered separately, who is on their books, how much they've paid etc.

I honestly find it difficult to understand why people are happy to defend that.

Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

The Saint. (Owen)

I would like to know how all this is going to be policed, there are lots of people who fly models that aren't in the BMFA or insured at all which is perfectly legal.  $%& 
Electrickery is the work of the devil.
Proper aeroplanes are powered by engines.

lanicopter

Well because now it is only legal IF you are registered.
Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

dickw

Quote from: lanicopter on October 22, 2019, 12:37:41 pm................................
If people refuse to pay then they can no longer fly at a BMFA club. .............................

Where does it say that?

Dick
Grow old disgracefully

lanicopter

If you're not registered you're not allowed to fly an aircraft.

So therefore to fly at a BMFA club you'll need to have paid your registration fee, whether it be separate or as part of the membership fee.
Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

dickw

October 22, 2019, 14:42:31 pm #49 Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 14:44:16 pm by dickw
Quote from: lanicopter on October 22, 2019, 14:39:17 pmIf you're not registered you're not allowed to fly an aircraft.

So therefore to fly at a BMFA club you'll need to have paid your registration fee, whether it be separate or as part of the membership fee.

I thought below 250gm were exempt, and they are also planning to exempt control line? So you will still be able to join a BMFA club and fly if not registered.

Dick
Grow old disgracefully

lanicopter

Well okay there are those specific exemptions, but you also do not need to register with the BMFA at all for either of those disciplines if I'm not mistaken?

Doesn't this also make insurance mandatory for flying >=250g model aircraft? It wasn't before.
Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

dickw

Quote from: lanicopter on October 22, 2019, 14:48:10 pmWell okay there are those specific exemptions, but you also do not need to register with the BMFA at all for either of those disciplines if I'm not mistaken?

You never have needed to register (I call it joining) with the BMFA and you don't now as far as I can see. Registering via the BMFA appears to be an option for members rather than doing it direct on the CAA site.

Quote from: lanicopter on October 22, 2019, 14:48:10 pmDoesn't this also make insurance mandatory for flying >=250g model aircraft? It wasn't before.
I not aware of anything that changes insurance requirements.

Dick
Grow old disgracefully

PDR

Quote from: dickw on October 22, 2019, 14:55:18 pmYou never have needed to register (I call it joining) with the BMFA and you don't now as far as I can see. Registering via the BMFA appears to be an option for members rather than doing it direct on the CAA site.

Indeed. Those who don't wish to join the BMFA can complete the training and test, and then register directlky with the CAA.

The only effective change here is that BMFA members who hold A-license (presumably "or above") are being given a waiver as their qualifications are being accepted as read. WHich is precisely what we asked for.

I'm not clear on the requirement to put registration numbers on things - is that still there or are we exempt from that as well? I don't care which it is, I just want to know!

Also what is the situation for people who are under training? They would probably be club members and thus BMFA members, but before they pass their A-licence do they need to have a seperate CAA registration/test? Again, I have no strong views one way or the other - I just want to know.

There is a "stealth change" in that it probably introduces a requirement for all BMFA clubs to use the A-Licence as a solo-certification. Many/most(?) clubs already do this, but there are those who have refused on some sort of principle.  I suppose those people would need to do the CAA test and register as if they weren't BMFA members?

These are all just details that we need to tie down to ensure we're in compliance. Overall I thiunk the BMFA have done an excellent job in talking the DfT and CAA out of Dromeageddon and into the reasonable position we'd been seeking.

Well done - a superb, professional job. Many, many thanks for all the hard work!

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

itsme

Totally agree, Pete. (Frame this bit Owen, please) ;D BMFA have done a sterling job against the high and mighty idiots who wanted to put us in a corner and forget us. This is as good a result as we could hope for, and as Pete says, it gives us credence in the law. Just take a freakin A test, it's hardly difficult, pay the BMFA an extra £9 and forget about it. Club secreataries all over Britain are cheering at this. Dont register, and your insurance is invalid, as you are then flying illegally. Good luck with that one.

Albert

So, I have an A, so therefore don't need to do anything else, except 're join my club ???

PDR

As far as we can see, yes - it's that simple. Well that and the fact that next year's subs may go up by around £9.

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

RobC

and apply your CAA operator registration identifier somewhere on your model - or has that been left by the wayside now?
flying's easy - it's getting it back down in one piece that's the hard part

itsme

Last I heard, that was left to being inside the model. There may be a tick box on your renewal to pay the extra £9.

dickw

Latest statement from the BMFA :-
https://bmfa.org/News/News-Page/ArticleID/2625/UPDATE-CAA-DRONE-AND-MODEL-AIRCRAFT-REGISTRATION-AND-EDUCATION-SCHEME-DRES-Information-for-members

Well worth reading as it provides guidance on a number of issues already raised on this and other forums.

Dick
Grow old disgracefully

lanicopter

Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

itsme

What does this mean for BMFA members?

In simple terms, if you operate an unmanned aircraft weighing more than 250g outdoors after the 30th November then it will become a legal requirement to be registered as an Operator with the CAA and be able to provide evidence that you are competent (essentially to confirm that you are aware of the applicable laws).  Those who only operate control line aircraft will be exempted from the requirements.

The CAA have agreed to recognise our members' Achievements as an alternative to their online test and allow us to administer registration of Operators as part of our membership process.  A few key points to note are that:

The fee for Operator registration will be £9/year.  Where members choose to register through the BMFA, we will collect the fee and pass it on to the CAA.  The BMFA does not profit from this in any way.  The CAA has to make a charge to users in order to cover the cost of the scheme which is not subsidised by the Government (unlike in some other countries).
Members will be exempted from registering as Operators on the 30th November and can register instead as part of the BMFA's membership renewal process (ideally by the end of January 2020).
Registering as an Operator through the BMFA will be a specific 'opt-in' for members and the CAA will only receive information for those members who have given consent by 'opting in' and paid the CAA fee.
The BMFA has never and will never share members' data with any third parties without consent.
We are still clarifying arrangements for junior members in terms of Operator registration, but there are no age restrictions for 'Remote Pilots'.
Members who 'opt in' will receive an email from the CAA with their 'Flyer ID' once their data is uploaded. (Should a member be asked to provide proof of registration before receiving their Flyer ID the BMFA office will provide evidence of compliance.)
There will be no requirement to place any registration numbers on the exterior of model aircraft, but they must be carried in an easily accessible location (within a battery hatch for example).
For members with an existing Achievement, all that they will need to do to remain lawful will be to simply 'opt in' when they renew their membership and pay the additional CAA fee.
We will shortly introduce a Member's Competency Certificate (a simple knowledge test which will be available online/hardcopy and/or via our clubs and examiners) as an alternative to the CAA system for those without an existing Achievement.  Members without an existing Achievement will either have to complete a Member's Competency Certificate or the CAA's own test before we can register them as an Operator.
Registration and/or evidence of competency will not be conditions of BMFA membership but failure to be able to produce evidence of both if challenged by the Police could result in a fixed penalty notice or prosecution.
Compliance with the Registration/Competency requirements is largely a matter for individual members and as such we would not expect Clubs to automatically assume responsibility for policing it, though of course some may choose to do so (perhaps to assist those members wishing to comply who do not have access to the internet or in order to comply with local operating requirements such as FRZ permissions for example).
We are still working with insurers to resolve any potential insurance implications and hope to be able to clarify the situation by the end of this week.
Members will continue to benefit from the existing permissions/exemptions already granted to the CAA recognised UK Associations (such as the permission to operate above 400ft with aircraft of less than 7Kg, operate control line aircraft within an FRZ and operate FPV aircraft with a competent observer).

The Saint. (Owen)

It it the 'model' that has to be registered or the pilot?  :-\
Electrickery is the work of the devil.
Proper aeroplanes are powered by engines.

pooh

Confucious he say "more than one aircraft in the same airspace leads to structural failure"

itsme

If you have an A certificate or LMA proficiency, it is just a matter of ticking a box to pay an extra £9 with your renewal fee. Then placing a number (supplied by the CAA) inside each model. If you do not have an A (why not?) then you must take the online test and pay your £9 directly to the CAA. In either case you will be given confirmation of your status by the CAA. It is hardly an onerous task, if a pointless exercise. In my case I will just grin and bear it.
Failing to do this and then going flying then puts you at risk of a fine and possibly even prison, and a criminal record, so for £9 it is not even worth moaning about it.
As Pete says, at least you will be able to show that you are authorised by the CAA.

FrankS

Quote from: itsme on October 24, 2019, 07:10:47 amIf you have an A certificate or LMA proficiency, it is just a matter of ticking a box to pay an extra £9 with your renewal fee. Then placing a number (supplied by the CAA) inside each model. If you do not have an A (why not?) then you must take the online test and pay your £9 directly to the CAA. In either case you will be given confirmation of your status by the CAA. It is hardly an onerous task, if a pointless exercise. In my case I will just grin and bear it.
Failing to do this and then going flying then puts you at risk of a fine and possibly even prison, and a criminal record, so for £9 it is not even worth moaning about it.
As Pete says, at least you will be able to show that you are authorised by the CAA.

As I understand it, the BMFA noted they will be bringing in their own knowledge test if members prefer to register via the BMFA

"9.   We will shortly introduce a Member's Competency Certificate (a simple knowledge test which will be available online/hardcopy and/or via our clubs and examiners) as an alternative to the CAA system for those without an existing Achievement.  Members without an existing Achievement will either have to complete a Member's Competency Certificate or the CAA's own test before we can register them as an Operator."

So if you don't have an A cert you can still register via the BMFA. Hopefully this will show on the membership portal so club secs can check who has completed the test.

I wonder if the A cert test will be updated to include checking the registration number is present during the pre-flight checks.................

itsme

Quote from: FrankS on October 24, 2019, 08:36:12 amAs I understand it, the BMFA noted they will be bringing in their own knowledge test if members prefer to register via the BMFA

"9.   We will shortly introduce a Member's Competency Certificate (a simple knowledge test which will be available online/hardcopy and/or via our clubs and examiners) as an alternative to the CAA system for those without an existing Achievement.  Members without an existing Achievement will either have to complete a Member's Competency Certificate or the CAA's own test before we can register them as an Operator."

So if you don't have an A cert you can still register via the BMFA. Hopefully this will show on the membership portal so club secs can check who has completed the test.

I wonder if the A cert test will be updated to include checking the registration number is present during the pre-flight checks.................
Yes, in the interests of clarity I missed that bit out. I imagine the 'competency test' will be the same as the CAA. I am not sure if the portal will show the CAA number, it needs to, or the usefulness of the portal is reduced.

lanicopter

I'm surprised you're so willing to give up your data to the government and pay for the privilege without at least demanding something in return.

At what point do you say no? The BMFA already have your data, and you're already insured. It's a box ticking exercise that costs you money and does nothing except put you on a list of potential suspects if someone flies a drone dangerously.

As I say, I'm surprised. How dare they demand your details - they literally have no reason to do so.
Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

wunwinglow

The government already know all about
Your health records
Income
Digital activity
Spending habits
Vehicle ownership and movements
Overseas trips
Etc,etc.
I don't think the BMFA passing your details ranks high up their list in the grand scheme of things

lanicopter

That's true - but it's hardly justification for making me store my data in another place when there's a perfectly adequate one already there, and charging me for the privilege.

I also question why FPVUK and the BMFA are able to set up the infrastructure required to store the same amount of data that the CAA will have, for far less than 4.5 million pounds of taxpayers money.

Not to mention that there's zero need or justification for it.

All I'm saying is I'm surprised people are so willing to give up their right to privacy so quickly and pay for it too - the money isn't the point, it's the sheer cheek of it that gets me.

Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

firefox

IIRC when I was plowing through all the CAPS, drones of less than 260 gm are not excluded if they carry a camera.
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool......

dickw

Quote from: firefox on October 24, 2019, 13:34:17 pmIIRC when I was plowing through all the CAPS, drones of less than 260 gm are not excluded if they carry a camera.

Well as usual that is as clear as mud. Quote from CAP1789 :-
"Operators are required to register when they operate an unmanned aircraft that is less than 250g in mass if it:
> is equipped with a sensor that can capture personal data (i.e. a camera or 'listening device'), unless it is classed as a toy, ......"

So provided you are flying a toy you are OK. I assume the CAA are just taking a pragmatic route here.

Dick
Grow old disgracefully

firefox

Quote from: dickw on October 24, 2019, 13:51:23 pmWell as usual that is as clear as mud. Quote from CAP1789 :-
"Operators are required to register when they operate an unmanned aircraft that is less than 250g in mass if it:
> is equipped with a sensor that can capture personal data (i.e. a camera or 'listening device'), unless it is classed as a toy, ......"

So provided you are flying a toy you are OK. I assume the CAA are just taking a pragmatic route here.

Dick

Define a toy! lol

My Tello is just a toy as far as I am concerned.
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool......

THE BLACKBIRD

I started in this hobby 70 years ago, i have just come back here to spend the rest of my days
Now i think ill be giving up my lifetimes hobby because of all this govermental bullshit, at nearly 80 years old and all those years flying i now have to take a test to fly my scratbuilt plains and answer a lot of questions
I dont think so
Ill build myself another RailRoad,
Lots of different aspects to doing that and no bullshit
The man that never made a mistake
Never made anything

paulinfrance

Quote from: THE BLACKBIRD on October 24, 2019, 15:02:47 pmI started in this hobby 70 years ago, i have just come back here to spend the rest of my days
Now i think ill be giving up my lifetimes hobby because of all this govermental bullshit, at nearly 80 years old and all those years flying i now have to take a test to fly my scratbuilt plains and answer a lot of questions
I dont think so
Ill build myself another RailRoad,
Lots of different aspects to doing that and no bullshit

Build yourself a French one it wont need to be a working model as they are always on strike,,, :''
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

JimG

Quote from: THE BLACKBIRD on October 24, 2019, 15:02:47 pmI started in this hobby 70 years ago, i have just come back here to spend the rest of my days
Now i think ill be giving up my lifetimes hobby because of all this govermental bullshit, at nearly 80 years old and all those years flying i now have to take a test to fly my scratbuilt plains and answer a lot of questions
I dont think so
Ill build myself another RailRoad,
Lots of different aspects to doing that and no bullshit

Are you a member of the BMFA or one of the other modelling organisations, do you have at least an A certificate? If your answer to both is yes then you will not have to sit a test and registration can take place when you renew your membership.
Jim Gill
Dundee Model Aircraft Club

itsme

Quote from: THE BLACKBIRD on October 24, 2019, 15:02:47 pmI started in this hobby 70 years ago, i have just come back here to spend the rest of my days
Now i think ill be giving up my lifetimes hobby because of all this govermental bullshit, at nearly 80 years old and all those years flying i now have to take a test to fly my scratbuilt plains and answer a lot of questions
I dont think so
Ill build myself another RailRoad,
Lots of different aspects to doing that and no bullshit
you dont have an A certificate? Its hardly difficult. As for governments and privacy, they are so stupid they send me a letter and ask me for my address.... we have escaped lightly from this, nobody wants it, its pathetically stupid but its here. Live with it.

THE BLACKBIRD

The answer is no to both questions, in Cyprus we flew what we wanted to, i was a member of a club there, but there were no rules, just common sense, and we flew on British territory next to the airbase at Acritiri
Common sense in this country went a long time ago i think
The man that never made a mistake
Never made anything

Michael_Rolls

I've given up flying apart from an indoor heli and a sub 250 g shockie behind the house - I will NOT participate in all this bloody rubbish, I have flown models for over 70 years without any sort of incident, so I have had a pretty good run for my money, but the way all this has come about makes me seethe
Mike
Properly trained, a man can be a dog's best friend

itsme

It is what it is, Mike. I was absolutely in favour of a mass boycott, but with the latest compromise its just not worth fighting anymore. Its £9 and putting a number in a model. You must remember paying a licence and placing a number on your model from many years ago...Speaking to friends in the US, its just something they have gotten used to, and they just shrug their shoulders. I have not seen this online test but I cant imagine it taxing any model flyer. If you have an A (which I believe EVERY BMFA member should have) then its just a payment. And it gives you a piece of paper you can shove in the face of any plod or person asking if you are flying legally.

lanicopter

It's £9 and putting a number in a model now.

It's absolutely worth fighting against - because when the £9 turns into £29 it'll be harder to justify and registration will simply be "what you do".

There's no reason for it Bob. If you participate you perpetuate.

Out of principle it should be fought.
Current fuel status: "Master Caution"