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November 21, 2019, 13:41:58 pm

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January 7th 2019 - Drone Law Changes

Started by Bad Raven, January 08, 2019, 06:55:34 am

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0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

PDR

Quote from: lanicopter on November 08, 2019, 15:25:34 pmWell actually it's neither PDR.

Ah. When you said:

Quote from: lanicopter on November 07, 2019, 09:01:39 amIn the meantime I will enjoy the comfort of my nine pounds.

I took that to mean "I will enjoy the comfort [by keeping it in my wallet]" - ie that you intended not to pay. If that's not what you meant then can you explain what this phrase meant?

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

itsme

I have a comfortable 9 pounds, but I'm trying to get rid of it. Sit ups are helping.

lanicopter

You're right. I haven't paid - and will continue to not pay out of principle until I'm forced to. By paying and entertaining these people who can't even get the rules right despite years of consultation, you're complicit in something that is damaging to the hobby instead of standing up for the simple argument that RC pilots should be able to continue as they always have done.

The reason I'm confused about this is because over the years you guys have been adamant that as BMFA members you fly safely, by the book and have made it quite clear on a number of occasions that being a member of a club is far more preferential than simply flying from the side of a road.

So why are you simply rolling over and accepting some bureaucrat telling you that in order to continue to be considered safe you now have to pay a registration fee on top of your club membership fee?

"The world has changed" ... has it really? The only change I see is that the rules have changed for no good reason. There haven't been any accidents despite the so-called airspace congestion (seriously, when was the last time you saw a drone while walking out and about?). It's a complete fallacy.



Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

dickw

latest from the BMFA    https://rcc.bmfa.uk/
Lots of useful info to clarify, and help comply with, the latest legislation.

Dick
Grow old disgracefully

RobC

I can only answer for myself:
I'm 'rolling over' because I accept that the world is constantly changing as technology advances and populations increase, and commercial interests will always trump boys with toys. 
With the development and widespread sale of easy to fly out of the box model aircraft and multi-rotors and the popularity of bad boy youtube videos combined with the current and potential future increase in commercial aerial activity at lower levels, HMG has to do something with regard to pacifying the media and trying to ensure flyers/operators have a minimum level of understanding regarding their legal reponsibilities.
I have yet to see a legally acceptable means to differentiate between responsible model flyers and any other SUA flyer so I understand the need to lump everyone together.
I am also aware of the inflated cost of any beurocratic innovation and appreciate that the BMFA have done a lot of work to get the charges reduced to the current paltry £9 fee.
If you want to be a rebel, knock yourself out.  I've paid up and taken the test so I'm legal and my insurance will be valid.  I gave up fighting The Man back in the 70s when I accepted that wearing crash helmets and seat belts saved getting stopped all the time.  Any other side effect such as keeping my skull intact was incidental.
flying's easy - it's getting it back down in one piece that's the hard part

lanicopter

Again, another terrible comparison.

Crash helmets and seatbelts are a "good thing" and absolutely improve safety.

Registration of model aircraft does not.

QuoteI have yet to see a legally acceptable means to differentiate between responsible model flyers and any other SUA flyer so I understand the need to lump everyone together.

BMFA membership
FPVUK membership
LMA membership

Each have a pilot handbook and are bound by the rules of the airspace (and always have been).

There that was easy. No additional registration or fee required.
Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

itsme

As one of the people who objected strongly to this, not just on forums and Facebook, but with contacting the pertinent MPs, Lords etc and inundating them with emails, I fought as hard as I could to prevent this. But to little avail, the law was passed, and thats it. Now it is the Law of the Land, and I obey the law, as should everyone, even if your opinion is that the law is wrong, it has been passed and if you do not obey it, you are a criminal. https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmsctech/2021/2021.pdf

Shall we look back five years, when I was shouting about drones causing the government to react, and got told I was paranoid and it would never happen. This has come about BECAUSE of folk who thought the law was an ass, and they were not going to obey it.

itsme

Here is possibly a better comparison- if a law was passed requiring all dog owners to be licenced and all dogs to be chipped, would that be something you would ignore? Or would you 'roll over'and accept it?

Steve J

Quote from: itsme on November 09, 2019, 11:54:13 amThis has come about BECAUSE of folk who thought the law was an ass, and they were not going to obey it.
No it hasn't. Or at least, that is not the primary reason driving the changes.

itsme

You may think that Steve, and there are other reasons, I agree, but its something I was banging on about years ago and now has happened. Coincidence?

NickK

Quote from: itsme on November 09, 2019, 11:58:36 amHere is possibly a better comparison- if a law was passed requiring all dog owners to be licenced and all dogs to be chipped, would that be something you would ignore? Or would you 'roll over'and accept it?


Erm not that I want to get too involved in all this but it is a legal requirement to have your dog chipped. I always had mine done before it was because I would be devastated if I lost him. So a clear benefit and worth the average £15.00 although some vets do it for free. Just sayin
Who says ventriloquism is Gollocks

itsme

I didnt realise. But it emphasises the point. Its peanuts, and the 'fee' give us a legal right to fly. Its like flying without insurance, its your right, but its stupid.

firefox

Quote from: itsme on November 10, 2019, 08:29:52 amI didn't realise. But it emphasises the point. Its peanuts, and the 'fee' give us a legal right to fly. Its like flying without insurance, its your right, but its stupid.

And what else is stupid is the CAA question do you need insurance - answer NO
Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool......

RobC

Quote from: firefox on November 10, 2019, 11:46:27 amAnd what else is stupid is the CAA question do you need insurance - answer NO
but that is the legal situation - are you saying that they should lie?
flying's easy - it's getting it back down in one piece that's the hard part

The Saint. (Owen)

Quote from: itsme on November 09, 2019, 11:58:36 amHere is possibly a better comparison- if a law was passed requiring all dog owners to be licenced and all dogs to be chipped, would that be something you would ignore? Or would you 'roll over'and accept it?


But you don't have to pay for it every year.  :-\
Electrickery is the work of the devil.
Proper aeroplanes are powered by engines.

itsme

Getting away from the point. The Government, in its wisdom(?) has passed a law requiring all model flyers to register and pay £9. Its a done deal, so moaning about it is the same as moaning about income tax, its there, live with it. The time to object and rebel has long passed, there is nothing to be done legally. Possibly the same thing will happen as happened the illegal CB fraternity, as soon as it was legalised, it disappeared. The drone 'bubble' may pop and it will be just for the ardent droneists to develop and progress with their hobby. The entire thing may then become unviable and be quietly scrapped. But for now, suck it up, buttercup.

firefox

Quote from: RobC on November 10, 2019, 12:05:11 pmbut that is the legal situation - are you saying that they should lie?


No, but if they had half a brain cell they would not have asked it!

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool......

lanicopter

Except income tax is universally accepted as required for modern society to function. Drone registration and fees are not (we had model flying beforehand) and provide no benefit to anyone, not least the people being forced to pay it.

Rolling over would be easy, it is under a tenner - but at what point do you say "its my hard-earned money and I'm not paying it to you until you give me a good reason for it". What if it were a hundred pounds?

Is it so unreasonable to disagree with an unwarranted tax? I don't think it is.

Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

itsme

Its not a tax. It is to defray the cost of administering the register. The register that has been ordered by law. If you are not on the register then you are operating illegally, which may affect your insurance and could get you a fine of £1,000. Your choice.

lanicopter

Erm - how is it not a tax if it's a mandatory payment required for you to continue to enjoy your hobby?

You're paying for something that isn't needed, and you're threatened with being made a criminal if you don't do it - despite being a competent, safe and responsible pilot.

The difference between you being a criminal and a non-criminal is simply the storage of your data, a line item in a database - and you're being made to pay for that privilege.

It's got nothing to do with a) your competency as a pilot, nor b) the operations that you perform with your aircraft. I'd argue that either of those are infinitely more important when it comes to ensuring airspace safety - and I cannot see how anyone could disagree with that assertion!

Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

itsme

Nobody is arguing with that. but, at risk of repeating myself- Its not a tax. It is to defray the cost of administering the register. The register that has been ordered by law.

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP1804_DRES_consultation_%20response.pdf

FrankS

Would be far better to make registration free and then fine those flying unregistered £10,000 or more to cover the cost...................

CEEJAY

this is my personal simple take on this,

is this something we wanted

 no i/we did not want it
 yes its now law
 can i/we change this,,, unlikely
 

if it means that i can play with my toys i will pay my £9,
i dont need to do any tests online or otherwise as i have a bmfa B and an lma prof,

so it means that now the government / hooever now knows that i am a legitimate flyer of toy aeroplanes, so if some numpty decides to mess about and do something illegal in some field/town center or whatever close to me they know its not me'

happy me

cj
I know THE answer!!......................42

PDR

The trouble wi6th the sort of hysetrical blather we're getting from the like of Lani and his cronies is that it leads to misconstrued twaddle like this piece in today's torygraph:

Telegraph.jpg

Whilst one underlying fact (we've lost a couple of thousand members) may be true the piece contains numberous factual errors that completely misrepresent the reality.

It appears to show the BMFA demanding to welsh on the deal  they have just spent a year negotiating, which I'm pretty sure is not the case. This is Lani's own personal Project Fear!

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

itsme

I didnt actually read it that way. Why do you say its welshing out? Model fliers are bailing out because they are panicking about 9 quid and a pathetic test?- are these the same ones who refuse to take an A certificate because it is draconian rules and regulations? If so we are better off without them.

PDR

Quote from: itsme on November 11, 2019, 16:18:52 pmI didnt actually read it that way. Why do you say its welshing out? Model fliers are bailing out because they are panicking about 9 quid and a pathetic test?- are these the same ones who refuse to take an A certificate because it is draconian rules and regulations? If so we are better off without them.

The tone of the article - that BMFA are still demanding further exemptions - suggests that the BMFA are trying to back out of the deal (which they aren't).

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

Steve J

Quote from: PDR on November 11, 2019, 15:29:08 pmWhilst one underlying fact (we've lost a couple of thousand members) may be true the piece contains numberous factual errors that completely misrepresent the reality.
What are the factual errors in that article?

My understanding is that the BMFA will be asking for at least one more exemption in the meeting that they are having with the CAA on Thursday.

Steve J

Quote from: itsme on November 11, 2019, 16:18:52 pmModel fliers are bailing out because they are panicking about 9 quid and a pathetic test?- are these the same ones who refuse to take an A certificate because it is draconian rules and regulations? If so we are better off without them.
You want the BMFA's membership to drop by 1/3?

lanicopter

Yes, PDR, my complaining about an unwarranted tax on the hobby has resulted in a Telegraph article. Of course it has.

Would you like me to make an appointment at Dignitas on your behalf or are you still capable of doing it yourself? I'll put my nine quid towards the fee if you like just to prove I don't actually mind paying for worthy causes.

🙄
Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

PDR

Hush, child - the grown-ups are talking.

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

itsme

Quote from: Steve J on November 11, 2019, 17:05:27 pmYou want the BMFA's membership to drop by 1/3?
No, but there are some (only a few) who think tests (and indeed insurance)are interfering in their right to do as they wish. They may also be found bitterly complaining about clubs and fun police.

Steve J

Quote from: itsme on November 11, 2019, 19:03:32 pmNo, but there are some (only a few) who think tests (and indeed insurance)are interfering in their right to do as they wish.
I have developed some sympathy for such people this year as I am currently a member of a club that wants me to do a multirotor A to fly my quad solo (I already have two other 'A's).

itsme

Quote from: Steve J on November 12, 2019, 08:23:09 amI have developed some sympathy for such people this year as I am currently a member of a club that wants me to do a multirotor A to fly my quad solo (I already have two other 'A's).
thats a bit OTT. That seems to be rules for rules sake, not safety, you have already passed an A and obviously know the regulations. Do they have an examiner capable of taking a Drone A? I know a fixed wing examiner can take you for it, but its daft if he has no idea how to actually fly one.

lanicopter

Quote from: itsmeThat seems to be rules for rules sake, not safety, you have already passed an A and obviously know the regulations.

You've literally just explained the problem with registration.
Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

Steve J

Quote from: lanicopter on November 12, 2019, 10:09:37 amYou've literally just explained the problem with registration.
You are confusing registration and testing.

Registration is being done primarily because it is a U-Space foundation service and enables other things.

The test in DMARES is to give people a basic understanding of the law before they commit aviation.

lanicopter

I'm confusing nothing. The U-Space foundation is part of the EU strategy regarding drone services. I'm sorry, but what sort of services am I partaking in if I plan on flying a scale Spitfire at a model aircraft club?

Remind me precisely why I need to give them my details? What benefit do I derive from it? How much safer does the world become when I give my name and address to them?

Oh I know you'll argue that it makes the airspace safer because of the massive expected influx of commercial drones, but to that I'd say:

1) do I really want unmanned aircraft travelling beyond VLOS to deliver small items to people?
2) even if I did, why do I have to be affected by (and pay) for the systems designed to enable it?

Once again - you're giving me reasons for why things are the way they are, but you are giving zero justification - which is exactly what I'm after. If you can't, I think the whole thing needs scrapping because It Is Simply A Tax.

Current fuel status: "Master Caution"

Steve J

Quote from: lanicopter on November 12, 2019, 13:39:19 pmbut you are giving zero justification
I wasn't trying to justify anything. I was pointing out that your 10:09:37 post was nonsense.

itsme

The situation is that none of us wanted this, but the government passed a law that we all had to register. The BMFA and others got us a reasonable compromise, its time to pay up and shut up. Shouting at it and being a rebel will get you nowhere, its £9. I spent more at the chippy the other night. You are not even registering, the BMFA is doing it for you. This thread is as pointless as the entire register is. Incidentally, they have now revised the number of model and drone fliers who will register down from 180,000 to...wait for it...130,000. Talk about optimism.

Steve J

Quote from: itsme on November 12, 2019, 19:14:28 pm130,000
That number assumes that the same percentage of people will register in the UK as have done so in Ireland which doesn't seem to be unreasonable.

itsme

I hope that is true, so the charge will not go up, but I dont hold out much confidence in it. The number of BMFA members is around 33,000, and a number of those are exempt, due to not actually flying or flying control line etc. So there are a 100,000 drone flyers out there itching to take a test and pay £9? I shall wait to see that.