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Flying...

Started by PDR, September 15, 2019, 08:41:41 am

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PDR

Since the beginning of the year I've been flying at a small club which has a very small electric-only site a few miles from my home. It was OK, but the site and runway were only suitable for very small & slow stuff, which was frustrating. But a few weeks ago I finally got past the waiting list of another, more typical club whose main field is ony 15 minutes away in the opposite direction, so some of the larger & faster models have been coming out of storage.

One of these was my hotliner - a Simprop Lift Off XS that I built in 2004 and flew with a veritable house brick of 10-Cell RC2400 nicads. It was fast, with a semi-moulded glass/carbon/foam/veneer wing strong enough for a lot of punishment. With 400ish watts of Jeti Phasor 30-3 on an Aeronaut 10-6 carbon folder it had a 60 degree climb that took it to "spec" heights in about 10 seconds. But its only landing aid was spoilerons which meant that with that heavy battery it needed a fair amount of space and a smooth surface to land on.

So when I dug it out again I refitted it with a 2.4GHz receiver and a 2200-3s lipo, making it nearly a pound lighter. It took a lot of juggling to get the CG anywhere near the right place without the housebrick battery - the lipo has ended up right at the back of the battery bay, which means that at the moment I have to take the wing off to change batteries (not ideal). Even there the CG is still a bit too far forward. The speed controller is still the old Jeti Advance 40-3p, and I had to do quite a lot of searching and faffing to find out how to switch on the prop brake for the folding prop.

So I flew it yesterday, and it's very impressive. With the lighter battery the climb is now vertical, and a 5 sec motor run takes it as high as is safe for my eyes. From there a half roll and dive down to eye level brings it down the runway at a clocked 180mph, and it can do 4 huge loops and a slow roll before needing another burst of power. It can cover vast amounts of sky in slow and hesitation rolls and is just awesome fun. When it comes to landing the spoilerons help kill the speed, although the sink rate with them deployed is quite alarming so I'm goint to move them from a slider to the LH stick-top button so that I can use them in "dabs". Most pleasingly - there is no pitch trim change with either throttle or spoiler, but the CG could do with going back a smidge to reduce the elevator inputs in the slow rolls. So I've very pleased with it - having to take the wing off to change batteries isn't ideal, but then the motor runs are so short I'm only changing the battery every 3rd or 4th flight so it's not that much of a burden. After a dozen flights I noticed that the profilm is lifting a bit (in the middle, not at the edges) on both sides in the mid-chord on the outer panels. I shall write and complain - I only ironed it on 15 years ago!

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

PDR

Actually I should come clean - it was LAST week that I finished the refurb and went to fly the Lift Off.

I had a clubmate launch it for the maiden and it flew away nicely for the first three seconds, at which point it gently lowered its left wing. That's when I discovered that I hadn't checked the direction of the ailerons, as it rolled inverted and tent-pegged spectacularly. The crash snapped the not off halfway down the canopy area, crushing and crumpling the glass. Back in the workshop it took an hour to take the parts and carefully tack them back together with cyano. After checking it was all square and true I then covered the outside with cling film and applied 4 layers of 80gsm twill-weave cloth to the inside of the nose (tapering the layers to blend to the existing structure). Once cured it was then just a small amount of Isopon P38 to blend it all in on the outside and it was ready to go again. When I get around to it I'll spray the damaged parts with some white primer and laquer, but at the moment I kinda like the "battle scar" looks!

Incidently, when I flew it originally it had a 5-channel Schultz receiver mounted half way down the rear fuselage. In the refurb I've fitted it with a basic Orange R610v2 - a £10 DSM2 clone with short antennas. Even when completely "speck'd out" this still gave full control.

Modern radio is just so much better tha that of yesteryear - even the cheap stuff!

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

itsme

Technology has made great advances in the past few years. I agree that since the advent of 2.4 and its initial teething troubles, (brownout? Whats that then?) radio gear has become VERY reliable. I have an old Graupner leccy glider I re motored and converted to lipos and the difference is staggering. To the point where I wish some old stuff would make reappearance. Anyone remember the Kyosho Shooting Star? It was marginal back in the late 90s, but now it would be fantastic.

PDR

There are lots of those kits of days gone by that would work SO well with modern electrics. At the moment the only company who seem to be offering proper builders kits for this sort of thing seems to be RBC - I'm very tempted by their RTB* 60" Hawker Tempest V, but that will have to wait!

PDR

* All balsa/ply "Ready To Build"
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...


paulinfrance

OMG what's wrong with PDR, when he finds an electric glider exciting, :D  is it Brexit going to his head,, :'' 
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

PDR

A hotliner is an electric glider in the same way that a current F1 car is a Toyota Prius...

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

itsme

The slope soarer I electrified a while back (the thread seems to have gone) goes out of my hands vertically and continues upwards doing rolls until I stop it. All on a 3S. Performance is not the restriction, more my eyes and thumbs. Yep, its exciting.

paulinfrance

Quote from: PDR on September 15, 2019, 10:28:04 amA hotliner is an electric glider in the same way that a current F1 car is a Toyota Prius...

PDR


lol Formula "E",, zzzz,,  >:(
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

itsme

show us what you've got, Mr Frog.

paulinfrance

September 15, 2019, 17:22:31 pm #10 Last Edit: September 15, 2019, 19:14:31 pm by paulinfrance
Quote from: itsme on September 15, 2019, 16:54:47 pmshow us what you've got, Mr Frog.

 Put paulinfrance5  in youtube, tube

you will find,
fast nice landing  F 4 Phantom,
 slow Fokker  Eindecker
Rafale,,

 control line as this subject is going around in circles,,

Mode 2 THE only way to fly

itsme


FlyinBrian

September 19, 2019, 10:53:36 am #12 Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 10:56:52 am by FlyinBrian Reason: addendum
In 2000 ish I had an original Simprop Lift off, the 2 metre version with 12 matched and zapped sub C cells and an Aveox motor (can't remember the spec but it ended in LMR) Current draw was just over 100A fresh off charge. I used a Hitec 5 ch dual conversion rx fitted at the back of the battery bay.

I had spoilers set on a mixer and using a flight mode so when switched in the throttle cut at 50% travel and the last 40% of throttle control controlled the spoilers so if the landing had to be aborted opening the throttle retracted the spoilers.

It went like stink and I really enjoyed it until one day just after launch it dove straight into Northamptonshire from about 200 feet at full power. The damage was similar to PDR describes above and so was the repair, it also lost one of the curved wing tips which I carved from balsa. The motor was also damaged and had to go back to Aveox in the USA. It did fly again and in fact I still have it.

I believe the cause of the crash was the BEC failing as shortly afterwards AVEOX redesigned the ESC with the BEC as a seperate unit on a fly lead.

I occasionally think about resurrecting it with Lipos and a modern motor but have never got round to it.
Basic Research is what I do - when I don't know what I'm doing!.

PDR

I'm actually thinking of putting a pound of ballast in it to give a higher terminal speed. I have a vague memory that in it's original form with the 12-cell sub-c house-brick it was clocked at over 200mph at the bottom of a dive. But it needed to be landed fast on a smooth surface, whereas in this form it needs less than 400watts to accelerate in a vertical climb and it lands fairly gently. I might try reducing the drag a bit by adding a faired tail-cone and some wing fillets, and cleaning up the wing bolt area (dropping it to subflush with a decent fairing).

The installed power is irrelevant to the speed, of course.

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

dickw

Sounds like some of you should come to one of our F5B competitions and we can run a "vintage hotliner" class alongside the main event - should be fun :)

http://www.f5b.co.uk/videos/alan-flockhart/

Dick
Grow old disgracefully

paulinfrance

So does putting  1 pound of lead in your plane instead of 453 grams means that you have accepted Brexit PDR ?. :''
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

PDR

What have inferial vs metric measures got to do with brexit?

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

paulinfrance

When the UK went into Europe I expected you to go 'Metric' that being the European standard, :co  with the exception of a few potato bashers who insisted that vegetables tasted better when bought by the pound, so I took it that you believed in Europe, and that you had gone metric  :''
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

PDR

September 23, 2019, 12:16:05 pm #18 Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 18:33:04 pm by PDR
UK's decision to switch to SI measures was nothing to do with joining the EEC/EC/EU - it was just a rational thing to do. And a "pound" is an informal measure (meaning 500g) used by many europen countries anyway -  in Germany they have the Pfund, in Frence the livre, in the Netherlands the pond, in Spain and Portugal the libra, in Italy the libbra, and in Denmark and Sweden they have the pund. It doesn't make an ounce of difference to Brexit - the usage just inches its way into daily discourse and people will slug it out until the killer argument accumulates sufficient horsepower to change it.

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

paulinfrance

Quote,, Frence the livre, ;D   
 I have lived here for 'a while' and it's always been metric, :study: 
the 'livre, pouce, miles' etc., is only used to explain what the English use when they are taking the pi,,s out of us, :-X , not forgetting driving on the left,,  :co
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

PDR

Strange, because I have heard locals buying a livre of fruit, meat or veg in many french village markets over the years, and I've many times heard people ordering in "pfunds" in german and austrian markets.

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

antonnick

As you say a Pfund accepted as being 500g and it is easier even now to ask for "einen Pfund" ( note capital letter) as it is for "einen halben Kilogramm" although the term has Long since lost its official Status. It is a bit like the english referring to "10 bob" for a 50p coin.
Sicher, kann ich fliegen!
I am not a "guy" and I was never a "kid".

meharibear

No, PDR is totally right!  When I lived in Clamart (Paris suburb - see The Day of the Jackal film opening sequence for more info https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_of_the_Jackal_(film) ) many of the traders in the local Saturday fruit market proudly sold "by the pound" or livre.
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened.  (Terry Pratchett)

PDR

Quote from: meharibear on September 23, 2019, 21:31:44 pmNo, PDR is totally right!

You speak as if it could ever be otherwise...

:ev

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

paulinfrance

Quote from: meharibear on September 23, 2019, 21:31:44 pmNo, PDR is totally right!  When I lived in Clamart (Paris suburb - see The Day of the Jackal film opening sequence for more info https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Day_of_the_Jackal_(film) ) many of the traders in the local Saturday fruit market proudly sold "by the pound" or livre.



They saw you coming  :embarassed: I worked in Paris around 1977 and have never seen or heard that,,
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

PDR

September 24, 2019, 08:31:32 am #25 Last Edit: September 24, 2019, 08:37:12 am by PDR
Then perhaps you should have opened your ears more!

It's actually slightly more complex, because technically the Livre is a unit of weight where the kilo is a unit of mass. So technically two Livre is 981g (at the paris latitude) of mass rather than 1kg. But that difference is long-since ignored and "Un Livre" is now accepted as a "demi-kilo" or 500g.

PDR

EDIT - I just did some checking and found that this is a formal thing rather than an "acceptance". The french formally legislated in 1812 to define the "Metric Livre" as 500g, so while it technically once was 490g it no longer is.
((source)
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

meharibear

Quote from: PDR on September 24, 2019, 07:47:53 amYou speak as if it could ever be otherwise...

:ev

PDR
Well I know you do sometimes specialise in "Michael Extraction"!
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened.  (Terry Pratchett)

PDR

Quote from: paulinfrance on September 24, 2019, 07:48:51 amI worked in Paris around 1977 and have never seen or heard that,,

Just for the record, over the years I've encountered this usage across normandy, brittany, paris, the dordogne, the longedoc, toulouse, the riviera, monaco, carcassonne, montpellier, marsailles and aix (and probably some other places while driving between many of the above).

So maybe it was just a local thing...

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

paulinfrance

Quote from: PDR on September 24, 2019, 10:10:26 amJust for the record, over the years I've encountered this usage across normandy, brittany, paris, the dordogne, the longedoc, toulouse, the riviera, monaco, carcassonne, montpellier, marsailles and aix (and probably some other places while driving between many of the above).

So maybe it was just a local thing...

PDR

They must have seen you coming with a British flag on your head, :uk: 
or are you still wearing your Spanish sombrero and a duffle coat over your pink wellies,, :D 
I have worked and lived in most of the places that you named.

Ok, I have only been living and working in France for the last 40 + years,
and NEVER have I heard them using the 'livre'. :-X
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

meharibear

Quote from: paulinfrance on September 24, 2019, 10:32:18 amOk, I have only been living and working in France for the last 40 + years,
and NEVER have I heard them using the 'livre'. :-X

Try here next time you are in the Paris region - Lovely friendly markets with many traders selling a "special prices" if you buy the "livre" packs they prepared earlier! https://www.clamart.fr/fr/infos-demarches/les-marches
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened.  (Terry Pratchett)

PDR

Quote from: paulinfrance on September 24, 2019, 10:32:18 amOk, I have only been living and working in France for the last 40 + years,
and NEVER have I heard them using the 'livre'. :-X

I gather specsavers do hearing checks as well these days...

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

paulinfrance

It's your British accents that provoke the 'livre',,  :''

 I go to Paris at least 4 times a year  ::) ( some of my family live there )
 and even at the Marché couvert de les Enfants Rouge au Marais,,
  only kilo's,,  :co
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

meharibear

Quote from: paulinfrance on September 24, 2019, 17:02:58 pmIt's your British accents that provoke the 'livre',,  :''

 I go to Paris at least 4 times a year  ::) ( some of my family live there )
 and even at the Marché couvert de les Enfants Rouge au Marais,,
  only kilo's,,  :co
Not at all, some stall holders had signs (in French obviously so not pandering to Brits) advertising their offers.  I was surprised by it on my first visit to do the weeks veggie shopping.
Inside every old person is a young person wondering what happened.  (Terry Pratchett)

paulinfrance

Quote from: meharibear on September 24, 2019, 20:14:14 pmNot at all, some stall holders had signs (in French obviously so not pandering to Brits) advertising their offers.  I was surprised by it on my first visit to do the weeks veggie shopping.


Oh so you are a veggie, ::) , maybe the oak tree growing from your head is a clue,,

I Never look at the vegetable stands  :-\  so I will when I go up there for Christmas,,
Mode 2 THE only way to fly

PDR

I'm really not sure where this is going, or indeed where it came from (it seems to have sprung from Paul having some bozare notion that my casual reference to a pound of weight was somehow brexit related), but every day is a school day around here and we're always learning new things.

I think the main thing we've learned here is that Paul needs to take more water with it...

PDR
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...

paulinfrance

Sorry but only Ice in my Whisky,, :co
 And 550 grams in the tail of the LMC Mirage 2000 that is being re vamped,, :study: 
Mode 2 THE only way to fly