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July 16, 2019, 04:56:31 AM

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Author Topic: BMFA needs our help on UK Consultation on Drones (Including Model Aircraft)  (Read 6685 times)

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Offline needforspeeduk

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Hi Guys,

I just saw this on the BMFA website.

The BMFA needs our help to respond before the 17th of September 2018 to a UK Government Consultation on Proposals for new legislation for Drones(Including Model Aircraft).

It's a bit of a pain to fill in but the BMFA have been kind enough to produce a document with the answers they are using and suggest that we use to help provide a common point of view.

The BMFA article is here:

https://www.bmfa.org/News/News-Page/ArticleID/2539/UK-Government-consultation-on-the-Future-of-Drones-in-the-UK-We-need-your-help-before-17th-September

The link to the suggested answers are here:

https://www.bmfa.org/Portals/0/CEO/ConsultationResponse.pdf

The actual online form is here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/drone-legislation-use-restrictions-and-enforcement

Can be completed directly online or using a response form via email.

Tim.



Offline PDR

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Be warned - there's about 100 questions (depending on which options you select for some answers), and the last few are asking you about things on which most of us have no way of forming a view (with no "how the feck would I know" option...

PDR

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Offline Michael_Rolls

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Well, I've completed the survey and I agree with Peter. As a consultation document I regard it as seriously flawed - riddled with assumptions trying to force answers that are not appropriate to model flying. NOWHERE is there any real recognition that a F/F rubber model weighing 251g is any different to a multi-rotor, highly sophisticated drone capable of carrying drugs into prisons!!!
Mike
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Offline Michael_Rolls

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The more I think about this survey, the more appalling I regard it as being. It is shot through with questions at the level of 'Have you stopped beating your wife - yes or no?'. There is no opportunity to make basic points - that it is an exercise of one size fits all when it clearly doesn't. To my mind this document gives no opportunity for genuine consultation.
Mike
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Offline mart49

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I completed this survey a few days ago. It seemed to me that it was compiled by a very junior or very naive member of the D of T. Whoever compiled it had no knowledge at all of any form of UAV whether a rubber powered F/F model or a sophisticated commercial multi-copter or all things in between. I think this is particularly apparent in the section of questions relating to intercepting drones about to do something naughty. Clearly it doesn't recognise that such craft may be entirely autonomous so shooting it down isn't really an option. As most/ all UAV's that are in the hands of hobby type users employ radio control on 2.4 Ghz and employ some form of frequency hopping control protocol so taking control won't happen. If I'm a terrorist I would program my IED carrying drone to detonate once it detected a high level interfering signal and let the news media do the rest!


Offline Michael_Rolls

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I completed this survey a few days ago. It seemed to me that it was compiled by a very junior or very naive member of the D of T. Whoever compiled it had no knowledge at all of any form of UAV whether a rubber powered F/F model or a sophisticated commercial multi-copter or all things in between. I think this is particularly apparent in the section of questions relating to intercepting drones about to do something naughty. Clearly it doesn't recognise that such craft may be entirely autonomous so shooting it down isn't really an option. As most/ all UAV's that are in the hands of hobby type users employ radio control on 2.4 Ghz and employ some form of frequency hopping control protocol so taking control won't happen. If I'm a terrorist I would program my IED carrying drone to detonate once it detected a high level interfering signal and let the news media do the rest!
Couldn't agree more!! It is a truly ignorant piece of work. If it wasn't so bloody serious for the future of our hobby it would be a joke.
Mike
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Offline PDR

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In several places on the form I have queried how "drone electronic effectors" can be reasonably used in the DETECTION of crimes (which was part of the question they asked).

There was nowhere on the form to add it, but I feel we should look to get them done for plagiarising the late Iain M Banks' term "Effector" without suitable attribution.

PDR
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Offline Jonzjob

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I haven't filled it out yet, just trying to get my head around some of the terminology?

Can someone tell me what 'drone electronic effectors' are please? I have tried a search on it and came up with zilch!
« Last Edit: August 29, 2018, 08:07:24 AM by Jonzjob »
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Offline Michael_Rolls

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Haven't a clue - but the very use of such obtuse terminology says it all
Mike
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Offline dickw

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I haven't filled it out yet, just trying to get my head around some of the terminology?

Can someone tell me what 'drone electronic effectors' are please? I have tried a search on it and came up with zilch!

They seem to mean something that will interfere with the electronics controlling the drone and presumably cause it to land - or in our case crash somewhere!

I completed the document because, if nothing else, it at least lets the authorities know I am interested enough to make an effort and may be willing to push back against unacceptable legislation.

Dick
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Offline SteveBB

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They seem to mean something that will interfere with the electronics controlling the drone and presumably cause it to land - or in our case crash somewhere!

I completed the document because, if nothing else, it at least lets the authorities know I am interested enough to make an effort and may be willing to push back against unacceptable legislation.

Dick

Although you might be right, putting an ambiguous/vague phrase into a document that has far reaching implications on the hobby in the UK is frankly shoddy. It should have been proof read by a grown up who knows what they're talking about and put it in language that isn't open to interpretation.

2c supplied.
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Offline Bad Raven

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So, I thought I'd take a different tack, and started to look at the average punter filling in the form offline downloaded to EMail back.

It is an .odt file, and if you don't know what that means, Google will completely blank ".odt" or ".odt file" enquiries, so is no help. 

It loads into Word 2010, and is read as a "OpenDocument Text" file (Obviously!).

Start to fill it in and on the third entry you'll likely trip over, as where you need to put something (no indication of what is required, tick, cross, Y, or what) is a blank picture frame you won't get plain text into.  NICE



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Offline Jonzjob

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OK Bad, I have now read and digested that lot. Now please would you tell me which way is up? As I now am completelie desiontoriated  :embarassed: :-\ :embarassed: :-\
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Offline lanicopter

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I'm pretty sure I probably just agreed to my organs being harvested while I fly. Nevertheless, I have filled it in. Meh, my body is broken anyway - jokes on them!
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Offline EricF

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Interview with Jonathan Nicholson, Deputy Director Communications for the CAA  - interesting viewing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es9bsJIZQ7Y&t=128s
I'm not old, I've just been young for a very long time!

Offline itsme

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Interview with Jonathan Nicholson, Deputy Director Communications for the CAA  - interesting viewing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es9bsJIZQ7Y&t=128s
actually total bull from an idiot with no idea of the situation. No idea of the numbers, its all sounding like one of Baldricks cunning ideas. The over 20kg guys have been suffering this rubbish for some time- and paying a fortune- for the same service they got with the LMA, free. NOBODY gains from this, except the spotty computer nerds setting it all up.


Offline itsme

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The idea that a person under 18 can not own (be the operator) of a model or drone over 250 grams yet can fly one if they take the online test- which I cant wait to see- just shows the unreal world these DfT muppets live in. Imagine telling an under 18 that they can drive a car, but can not buy one? The £16.50 sum (who thought of that amount? Does it include VAT?) is a figure dreamed up by the office junior and has no comparison to the true figure- even if we ALL signed up. Please keep voicing your objections via this form-
https://forms.dft.gov.uk/contact-dft-and-agencies/

Offline Big A

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Latest from the BMFA CEO at https://bmfa.org/News/News-Page/ArticleID/2587/Call-to-Action-Update-Meeting-with-the-CAA-Please-read-and-share

Representatives of the UK Model Flying Associations met with the CAA yesterday afternoon (29th May 2019).

The meeting was constructive, but without any real breakthrough to report at this stage.

The CAA were only able to discuss potential options within the restrictive policy framework dictated by the DfT.  One such option is the possibility of the Associations registering as Operators, which would save members paying the £16.50 registration fee, but all members flying any model over 250g would still be required to take a free CAA theory test every 3 years.  There is however further exploratory work to do on this option before it could be confirmed as a viable way forward and it would still be far from satisfactory.

Model Flying is now within the CAA’s Small Unmanned Aircraft Unit rather than their General Aviation Unit and there was an undertaking to meet on a quarterly basis, rather than on the current annual basis.  The Associations welcome this development, especially at the present time.

There remains a great deal of detail to resolve before the 2018 ANO changes come into effect at the end of November this year and this issue is compounded by the six months lost due to the DfT/CAA ‘stone walling’ us since November 2018.  It is regrettable that it has taken the direct action of our members to force the resumption of meaningful dialogue.

We would like to thank all those members who have supported our campaign so far, the CAA has received approximately 6000 responses from model association members. If you have not yet responded to the consultation, please do so before it closes next week.  Full details of the consultation and how to respond can be found here: https://consultations.caa.co.uk/finance/drone-registration/

A considerable number of members have expressed their dissatisfaction at the ‘standard’ response they have received from the CAA which in many cases does little or nothing to address their specific concerns or indicate that they have even been read.  We would encourage any member dissatisfied with the response they have received to raise a formal complaint through the CAA’s complaints process (rather than as a personal communication to the CEO), details of which you can find here:https://www.caa.co.uk/Our-work/Make-a-report-or-complaint/How-to-make-a-complaint-about-the-CAA/.

Similarly, a significant number of members have also expressed their dissatisfaction with the ‘standard’ response they have received from the DfT and in this instance we would encourage members to re-submit their concerns with a complaint that they have not been adequately addressed.  Details of how to submit a complaint to the DfT can be found herehttps://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/department-for-transport/about/complaints-procedure#making-a-complaint-to-the-department-for-transport.

We will be meeting with the Minister next week, but for now our 'Call to Action' remains very much in place.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2019, 12:49:57 PM by Big A, Reason: »

Offline Chippie

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Thanks for the update Andy, nothing better than being kept informed of whats happeing behind the scenes....

Although I not a club member ( yet....after moving house..) I submitted my thoughts and didnt even receive an acknowledgement...how rude!...

Still we live and fly in hope...
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Offline itsme

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Many thanks for the hard work put in by you and your people, Andy. Lets hope a bit of sense comes from it.

Offline Michael_Rolls

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I wrote to the Baroness on the 11th of May - so far not even an acknowledgement so I am writing again.
Mike
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Offline dickw

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I emailed the Baroness on 1st May and was promised a reply within 20 working days.
Time's up and no reply, so I have raised a complaint on their system.

I immediately received an acknowledgement of my complaint and the promise of - a response within 20 working days!!!

Ah well, at least they know we are here and not going away  :).

Dick
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Offline itsme

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Shes busy at the moment. With the threat of climate warriors disrupting Heathrow with....drones. I hope they will all register and pay the £16.50.

Offline Steve J

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I hope they will all register and pay the £16.50.

They can't register until October and they are saying that they are going to protest in June :nananana:.

Personally, I think that it's a hoax. If they disrupt Heathrow, Emma Thompson might not be able to fly in from California to support them.

Steve

Offline itsme

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 ;
They can't register until October and they are saying that they are going to protest in June :nananana:.

Personally, I think that it's a hoax. If they disrupt Heathrow, Emma Thompson might not be able to fly in from California to support them.

Steve
;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline ludwig

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In Scotland a proposed new Transport bill is set to place severe restrictions on the operation of vintage vehicles. Vintage vehicles being another of my loves by the way.

So it's not only toy aeroplanes which are about to suffer.

Offline lanicopter

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I'm not worried about the Heathrow protest - after all, the government apparently have "drone jamming" technology so this is clearly not a viable threat to the airspace. Given the heads-up that it's going to happen, I am feeling assured that our government will make sure disruption is prevented and the protest will pass without incident.

;D


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Offline Michael_Rolls

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 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Mike
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Offline Tabsdad

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Personally, I think that it's a hoax. If they disrupt Heathrow, Emma Thompson might not be able to fly in from California to support them.

Steve
.....and isn't that just the irony of these eco-terrorists, without the polluting transport they are so against their protests would be insignificant.

Offline dickw

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.....and isn't that just the irony of these eco-terrorists, without the polluting transport they are so against their protests would be insignificant.

 $%&  "Without the polluting transport" wouldn't their protests also be unnecessary?

Dick
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I wonder how many of them would give up their smartphones, tvs,x boxes fancy trainers from China and the far east?
“It has been estimated that just one of these container ships, the length of around six football pitches, can produce the same amount of pollution as 50 million cars. The emissions from 15 of these mega-ships match those from all the cars in the world. And if the shipping industry were a country, it would be ranked between Germany and Japan as the sixth-largest contributor to CO2 emissions.”

Offline Tabsdad

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$%&  "Without the polluting transport" wouldn't their protests also be unnecessary?

Dick

Catch 22.

They need the polluting transport for all of their protests, not just this one and without it they would be ineffective, so to protest relying on and using any kind of polluting transport kind of reduces the credibility of the protest.


Offline Michael_Rolls

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I wrote to the Baroness on the 11th of May - so far not even an acknowledgement so I am writing again.
Mike
Got a two page waffle response today. Cutting through the waffle, what it boils down to is 'tough - learn to live with it'. It does mention the minister is meeting Dave Phipps tomorrow - we can only wish him the best of luck.
Mike
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Offline SteveBB

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Surprise no-one has posted this..I seem to remember Cliff from seeing him at Sandhays. I think that's where this picture was taken.

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48541783

Quote
People who fly model aircraft are angry that proposed drone rules could damage their much-loved hobby.

They argue they should not be classed as drone pilots.

The new laws are intended to make airspace safer amid increasing drone use.

The British Model Flying Association (BMFA) met the Aviation Minister Baroness Vere this week to discuss its concerns.

The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) is currently consulting on proposals for a drone registration scheme that is due to become law in November. It has received 6,000 responses from BMFA members.

David Phipps, chief executive of BMFA, said the proposed rules, which would see all pilots of unmanned aerial vehicles required to register, pay for a licence and take competency tests every three years are "disproportionate" for model-aircraft flyers.

"We have established an excellent safety record that surpasses commercial aviation over a century of flying. European laws grant special recognition to model flying, saying it should be treated differently but the UK has not done this."
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Offline Bad Raven

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Fishing Licence:-

Prices
Licence type                         Trout and coarse 2-rod                Salmon and sea trout
8-day                                                  £12                                                           £27
12-month                                          £30                                                           £82
12-month - over 65 or disabled       £20                                                           £54
12-month - junior (13 to 16)          Free                                                   Free
So you gain the ability to fish from rivers etc, which is regulated and patrolled. Just what do we GAIN from this £16-50? An online test which we all know is going to be stupid? Do you need a fishing licence to fish on private property, or your own property?

Offline Tabsdad

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The fishing license isn't a like for like comparison, firstly it's a licence which gives you the right to use up to 2 rods to fish rivers, still and tidal waters for Coarse fish (a seperate license is needed for Game fish), the fee goes to the Environment Agency to help in the maintenance and policing of those waters, it also gives the Angling bodies a say in the legislation, you do not need to register, take any form of test nor mark any of your equipment. The license is needed for private waters (even your own!) and 'Commercials'. If you fish from the coast for salt water fish no license at all is needed. Angling is said to be the biggest participation sport/Hobby/pastime in the country, with over 1M participants and that is their strength......their numbers. Each and every year illegal anglers are caught and fined but it still goes on, the license cannot prevent it in fact in the past decade the number of illegal Anglers has risen due to the influx of eastern europeans settling here who do not have anything similar in their country of origin.

The fishing license is just a red herring  ;).
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 10:07:39 AM by Tabsdad »

Offline itsme

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The fishing license isn't a like for like comparison, firstly it's a licence which gives you the right to use up to 2 rods to fish rivers, still and tidal waters for Coarse fish (a seperate license is needed for Game fish), the fee goes to the Environment Agency to help in the maintenance and policing of those waters, it also gives the Angling bodies a say in the legislation, you do not need to register, take any form of test nor mark any of your equipment. The license is needed for private waters (even your own!) and 'Commercials'. If you fish from the coast for salt water fish no license at all is needed. Angling is said to be the biggest participation sport/Hobby/pastime in the country, with over 1M participants and that is their strength......their numbers. Each and every year illegal anglers are caught and fined but it still goes on, the license cannot prevent it in fact in the past decade the number of illegal Anglers has risen due to the influx of eastern europeans settling here who do not have anything similar in their country of origin.

The fishing license is just a red herring  ;).
well smoke me a kipper...

Offline paulinfrance

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Fishing Licence:-

Prices
Licence type                         Trout and coarse 2-rod                Salmon and sea trout
8-day                                                  £12                                                           £27
12-month                                          £30                                                           £82
12-month - over 65 or disabled       £20                                                           £54
12-month - junior (13 to 16)          Free                                                   Free

 So £16.50 to fly your plane in 'air' which I thought was free, so what do you think is a reasonable tax to breath it ?. :D
Mode 2 THE only way to fly


 

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