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April 25, 2019, 17:17:47 PM

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Author Topic: The stars aligned  (Read 1211 times)

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Offline PDR

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The stars aligned
« on: March 30, 2019, 19:38:19 PM »
Today the stars aligned in my favour for once. At the beginning of this year I made a resolution to do some outdoor flying, and a joined a small and informal electric-only club who have a site about 20mins from me. Since then in odd moments I've been bringing various models in the fleet up to flight-ready (mainly fitting 2,4G receivers and adapting them for newer batteries with different connectors).

Earlier in the week while marooned in the hotel in the northern wilderness I noted that this weekend's weather forecast was looking promising, and SWMBO was heading north to collect 2nd-borne from uni, returning on sunday, and the weekend was thus my own. So when I got home yesterday I started charging batteries.

This morning I packed stuff in the car and headed off to the site, arriving there 10 mins before the permitted first flight time. I took three models which hadn't actually flown yet - a foam-e wot4 mk2 which I bought on a whim a year or so ago, a Hobbyking "mini-saturn" that I'd been given by someone who said it didn't fly, an my SLEC Aquilla (a sort of "outdoor shockie" - 40" span, 6mm depron and 150watts of grunt). The Aquilla dates back over 12 years - I just never got around to flying it.

I flew all three several times and brought all three home undamaged. The Aquilla was just superb - I really enjoyed it. Easy hovering at half throttle, stupidly agile and flew for 10 minutes after which the 3s1300 pack was still showing 60% full. I was pleased to find I can still do low, slow inverted passes without needing to think about it. I think I need to take the CG back a bit, but otherwise it was "on rails". It really excelled when positive flap-coupling was used to give it some camber, and prop-hanging became steadier with negative flap coupling.

The wot4 was OK - a bit staid my what I remember wotties to be like, bit more than generously powered and no nasty habits. I was pleased to see I can still judge a proper landing approach (the club's grass patch is a little on the small side, with heather, bushes and saplings constraining the approach so you have to land accurately). I was less pleased when I noticed that after three flights the wing was "rocking" - it looks like the pins at the LE are loose and I'll need to investigate this before flying it again. One of the members of this club told me that they have seen several wot4 foam-Es shed the wing in flight, so I'll check it!

The mini-saturn was one of the stranger aeroplanes I've flown, and I can see why mike gave it away. Just getting it trimmed to fly straight took ages because each control has effects in all three axes, so a change of rudder trim needed a change of aileron and elevator trim, and when the aileron and elevator were trimmed that changed the rudder trim, which changed the others again (etc etc). The whole of the first battery was consumed just finding a reasonable trim. Once trimmed it was flyable and agile - it would do more or less anything and if you kept doing manoeuvres it felt fine. But it just wouldn't fly straight and level - it kept wandering off and needed constant attention. I may play with CG and expo to see if I can cure it - it was a freebie so it doesn't owe me anything.

On the drive home I realised this was the first "proper" outdoor flying I've done for about six years, which was a sobering thought!

PDR
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Offline Bad Raven

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2019, 20:41:01 PM »
Great, pleased for you!

I flew every day in the week except Friday, when I had to go there to repair a pit table before someone injured themselves, but had to move on without flying, and it was warm, and zero breeze, and nobody else there. The strain.................

Still, brownie points gained with wife who wanted a dump run doing which would not fit in her car.  However, I got told off at the dump for exceeding 5mph (on the idle jet in first FFS)  ::)

Note to Self, buy her a roof rack..................   ;D

Always regarded the Wot range with a level of disdain. Seen loads of the foamies fall apart or break at the slightest provocation, and the 4's all seem to love dragging their tails like a puppy with worms.    Of course this may well be the assemblers/pilots with the worms...........

I don't expect to find out how great they are by buying one, but EVERYONE at my club seems to have several (mostly made up from several more and with liberal plywood braces)!

I think most of the so called F3A foamies behave "strangely", but then they are not meant for ANY straight line flying!

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2019, 07:23:23 AM »
 With that luck It sounds like you could sort out Britain and Brexit, then 'maybe' I can turn the TV on and watch some real news,,  :-X

 I also had a good day with my P 40, I shot down two planes, a P 51 and a Corsair, French pilots
are no match for me,,  :uk:,
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Offline Michael_Rolls

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2019, 08:00:10 AM »
Well done, Peter - pleased for you
Mike
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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2019, 09:49:33 AM »
'maybe' I can turn the TV on and watch some real news,,  :-X


what- like the destruction of Paris by middle aged vandals wearing PPE?


Offline The Saint. (Owen)

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2019, 12:41:25 PM »
Peter, knowing some of your background as a pylon racer amongst other flying disciplines, what made you ditch I.C. engines for electrickery?
Electrickery is the work of the devil.
Proper aeroplanes are powered by engines.

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2019, 12:41:57 PM »
I think french news focuses too much on their talentless reality-tv "stars" - they're always banging on about someone called "Jillie Jones", but as far as I can establish Jillie has never done anything worth being famous for.

PDR
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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2019, 13:10:34 PM »
I find most 'celebrities' are famous for being....err....celebrities.

Offline PDR

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2019, 15:01:48 PM »
Peter, knowing some of your background as a pylon racer amongst other flying disciplines, what made you ditch I.C. engines for electrickery?

Convenience, mostly. To fly IC I have to get together models, Tx, flight box, fuel, starter/glow battery, cleaning stuff etc. I then have to find a site that can put up with the racket, and after I get back I need a change of clothes to avoid being grubby/smelly*. At some stage (either at the field or when I get home) I have to do a full valeting job on the models to get all the gunge off.

To fly electric I just take models, Tx and a bag of batteries. I can fly in plenty of open spaces without upsetting anyone (or go a whole eight miles to the actual club site). I plug in a battery and just open the throttle to fly. Then I change t0o another battery and I fly again [repeat until done]. The models don't need post-flight cleaning unless I land in a mud patch, and I don't need a change of clothes when I get back.

There was a time 15 years ago when my main flying opportunity was lunchtimes during the week. The ability to just pop to the park a mile away with a model, a Tx and 3 or 4 batteries in my jacket pocket made that possible - I didn't even need to change out of my suit. I used to stick the Formosa and a gash Tx in the back of the car when driving between the office and RAF bases** and if I was making good time there were several fields and parks where I could stop and have a 20 minute flight on the way. The only power model that came even close to this was an old club-20 model that I'd bolted an Irvine 20 diesel in (it just needed model, Tx and a can of fuel), but that wasn't exactly "odourless".

When I fly electric I just take an old laptop rucksack to carry batteries and Tx. I do tent to take a few screwdrivers and spanners and a few spare props because I can't break the habit, but the only support equipment I take is a clampmeter (when I'm finding the best prop for a model) and a battery checker (Cellmeter7) so I can see how much charge I used on a flight and set the timer accordingly next time. Oh yes, and some red & green connector covers so I can see which batteries are the "used" ones. It's so much simpler, and free of hassles.

I have something like 40-50 engines in the cupboards from a cox TD010 to Weslake WAE-342 (aka "3w-342", but mine came from a retired Phoenix UAV complete with "fuel injection" carb and ECU). There are loads in the 20/40/60 sizes, but only a couple of 4-strokes***, and I seriously doubt any of them will ever again turn a prop in anger (or even in mild annoyance). In fact I can't see myself returning to the general hassle and kerfuffle of power flying unless I return to racing, which is unlikely because I can't see being able to devote the kind of time commitment that serious competition flying demands****

Well you did ask...

:)

PDR

* doesn't apply to brexiters, obviously, because people expect them to be grubby/smelly anyway
** that was a large part of my working life in the early-mid naughties
*** because I'm afraid I'm a confirmed heterosexual - I was born that way and it's just something I have to live with
**** IMHO there's no point in flying competitions unless you DO take it seriously - in my view that's why "simple" and "fun" competition classes have always failed relatively quickly
There are no shortcuts on the long, hard road to success. But if your dad's rich there could a limo service...


Offline itsme

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #9 on: March 31, 2019, 16:07:39 PM »
"Convenience, mostly. To fly IC I have to get together models, Tx, flight box, fuel, starter/glow battery, cleaning stuff etc. I then have to find a site that can put up with the racket, and after I get back I need a change of clothes to avoid being grubby/smelly*. At some stage (either at the field or when I get home) I have to do a full valeting job on the models to get all the gunge off.

To fly electric I just take models, Tx and a bag of batteries. I can fly in plenty of open spaces without upsetting anyone (or go a whole eight miles to the actual club site). I plug in a battery and just open the throttle to fly. Then I change t0o another battery and I fly again [repeat until done]. The models don't need post-flight cleaning unless I land in a mud patch, and I don't need a change of clothes when I get back."
That was the old, pre-referendum days. The modern thinking British Model Flyer uses the new range of cheap, reliable and clean petrol engines. Transmitter and a glove and fly for twenty minutes or more, connect the outlet pipes together and you have a clean, non smelly model that wont spontaneously combust in your car. Some of us older members do remember ...what were they? Glow engines?

Offline SteveBB

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #10 on: March 31, 2019, 17:01:20 PM »
and fly for twenty minutes or more,


I should hope more...Ooops, I'm a 'resting' gliderist. Wrong thread.  :D
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Offline The Saint. (Owen)

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #11 on: March 31, 2019, 18:13:13 PM »
Convenience, mostly. To fly IC I have to get together models, Tx, flight box, fuel, starter/glow battery, cleaning stuff etc. I then have to find a site that can put up with the racket, and after I get back I need a change of clothes to avoid being grubby/smelly*. At some stage (either at the field or when I get home) I have to do a full valeting job on the models to get all the gunge off.

To fly electric I just take models, Tx and a bag of batteries. I can fly in plenty of open spaces without upsetting anyone (or go a whole eight miles to the actual club site). I plug in a battery and just open the throttle to fly. Then I change t0o another battery and I fly again [repeat until done]. The models don't need post-flight cleaning unless I land in a mud patch, and I don't need a change of clothes when I get back.

There was a time 15 years ago when my main flying opportunity was lunchtimes during the week. The ability to just pop to the park a mile away with a model, a Tx and 3 or 4 batteries in my jacket pocket made that possible - I didn't even need to change out of my suit. I used to stick the Formosa and a gash Tx in the back of the car when driving between the office and RAF bases** and if I was making good time there were several fields and parks where I could stop and have a 20 minute flight on the way. The only power model that came even close to this was an old club-20 model that I'd bolted an Irvine 20 diesel in (it just needed model, Tx and a can of fuel), but that wasn't exactly "odourless".

When I fly electric I just take an old laptop rucksack to carry batteries and Tx. I do tent to take a few screwdrivers and spanners and a few spare props because I can't break the habit, but the only support equipment I take is a clampmeter (when I'm finding the best prop for a model) and a battery checker (Cellmeter7) so I can see how much charge I used on a flight and set the timer accordingly next time. Oh yes, and some red & green connector covers so I can see which batteries are the "used" ones. It's so much simpler, and free of hassles.

I have something like 40-50 engines in the cupboards from a cox TD010 to Weslake WAE-342 (aka "3w-342", but mine came from a retired Phoenix UAV complete with "fuel injection" carb and ECU). There are loads in the 20/40/60 sizes, but only a couple of 4-strokes***, and I seriously doubt any of them will ever again turn a prop in anger (or even in mild annoyance). In fact I can't see myself returning to the general hassle and kerfuffle of power flying unless I return to racing, which is unlikely because I can't see being able to devote the kind of time commitment that serious competition flying demands****

Well you did ask...

:)

PDR

* doesn't apply to brexiters, obviously, because people expect them to be grubby/smelly anyway
** that was a large part of my working life in the early-mid naughties
*** because I'm afraid I'm a confirmed heterosexual - I was born that way and it's just something I have to live with
**** IMHO there's no point in flying competitions unless you DO take it seriously - in my view that's why "simple" and "fun" competition classes have always failed relatively quickly

I see your point now Peter, but what are you going to do with all those engines?  :o
Electrickery is the work of the devil.
Proper aeroplanes are powered by engines.

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2019, 21:16:15 PM »
Haven't a clue. i tell myself I'm keeping them in case I change my mind. The F3D engines (and about 20 assorted tuned pipes that go with them) are no use to anyone at all - they are 20 years out of date as race engines and have no other possible use. The Sport 40 race engines could be used as sport-model engines, but there's no way I could part with the Irvines, let alone the Rossis.The other engines (like the Irvine diesels or the OPS 21s) trigger memories, etc etc.

I guess I'll just leave them for my daughters to deal with when I'm gone. My will has a "side letter" which I update periodically. It describes the contents of my workshop (with photos) - which things are valuable and which are just junk. It also suggests people they could contact to advise on selling/giving away etc. Having said that, my eldest daughter has said she wants the myford and some other bits. She occasionally uses the lathe to make stuff, and she claims she'd miss it if she couldn't.

PDR
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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2019, 07:55:04 AM »
taught her right, then.  :co

Offline Bad Raven

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2019, 07:43:06 AM »
taught her right, then.  :co

Not at all, she should make the servants do it, like Dad.
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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2019, 08:29:01 AM »
Flew again yesterday morning - dusted off my old Skycat with some new batteries. Also dusted off my Gemini which hasn't flown since I re-engined it with a 3-cell setup (it previously had a 2-cell high-current setup). Both flew well, although the Skycat showed its age on the third landing - the landing was a 3-pointer, but perhaps a touch on the firm side and the tailwheel dragged the rudder clean off. The rudder hinges just pulled out - the cyano seems to have broken down after 16ish years. It will just glue straight back, but in coming off the clevis ripped through the servo arm.

This would only be a trifling snaggette were it not for the fact that I don't even recognise the servo! I think it's a "supertec", but I'll have a hunt around in my small servo bits draw to see if I have any horns that will fit. Otherwise I suppose I'll have to cut ther servo out and replace it with something else.

PDR
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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2019, 10:39:05 AM »
Yes most people don't look at their models BEFORE flying :af, 2 weeks ago a friend flew his plane and hop, no elevator, it flew off  :embarassed: the same problem the cyano just let go, a small bin bag did the job of bringing the plane back to the field,,  :-\
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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2019, 11:38:44 AM »
I'm not having a go at Pete or anyone here, but do we get a bit blase with small electrics? The LMA recommendation is to tug on all moving surfaces each day of flying, to see if a gremlin has crept in and loosened hinges. Now a big model can certainly do damage, but so can a small one- especially electric as the prop just keeps going. Worth bearing in mind. (and yes, I have done it too)

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2019, 12:43:07 PM »
Small electrics are works of the devil !  :ev
A few of us do pylon racing, I was holding one of the electric 'glider' ( or whatever ) ones
on the table while it's pilot was fiddling with a u shaped switch 'whatchamacallit' to connect the
electrons up, when  the motor turned itself on full chat, f***k me was I ( and the pilot ) lucky that I decided to hold
the b***y thing down, it would have taken a few fingers off,,  :-X
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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2019, 12:55:06 PM »
I take the point, but I do check everything before each flight (including a quick tug on the control surfaces as well as full movement/direction). I think the cyano was secure, but aged, so that the sharp grab when the tailwheel dropped into soft ground on the "firm" three pointer was enough to break the bond. All the other surfaces are secure because they all have moulded-in elapor hinges. I've now glued the hinges back in, and I'll leave them for a few days before giving them another test.

Anyway, after going through my small-servo drawer I found that I do actually still have the spare horn/screw/grommet sets in their little zip-lock bags as originally supplied with these servos (circa 2003), so I claim the Lord Petyr Baelish Extreme Smugness Award for having so carefully put them away in the right place at the time.

PDR
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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2019, 13:42:16 PM »
I take the point, but I do check everything before each flight (including a quick tug on the control surfaces as well as full movement/direction). I think the cyano was secure, but aged, so that the sharp grab when the tailwheel dropped into soft ground on the "firm" three pointer was enough to break the bond. All the other surfaces are secure because they all have moulded-in elapor hinges. I've now glued the hinges back in, and I'll leave them for a few days before giving them another test.

Anyway, after going through my small-servo drawer I found that I do actually still have the spare horn/screw/grommet sets in their little zip-lock bags as originally supplied with these servos (circa 2003), so I claim the Lord Petyr Baelish Extreme Smugness Award for having so carefully put them away in the right place at the time.

PDR
theres always an Ebeneezer Scrooge...

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2019, 14:55:36 PM »
theres always an Ebeneezer Scrooge...

That's me. As long as society continues to believe in this irrational idea that household servants are supposed to be paid a minimum wage then honest, hardworking employers like me have to keep a close eye on every single penny to be able to afford their weekly £8.21 handout. No wonder the country's going to the dogs...

PDR

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2019, 18:12:20 PM »
That's me. As long as society continues to believe in this irrational idea that household servants are supposed to be paid a minimum wage then honest, hardworking employers like me have to keep a close eye on every single penny to be able to afford their weekly £8.21 handout. No wonder the country's going to the dogs...

PDR
err hate to alarm you, but it's an HOUR......so your servants should be on £1,000 pounds a week...

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2019, 18:37:13 PM »
err hate to alarm you, but it's an HOUR...

Oh do give it a rest - April 1st was last Monday.

PDR
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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2019, 08:09:06 AM »
Oh do give it a rest - April 1st was last Monday.

PDR
worth a try

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2019, 18:10:03 PM »
Went flying again this morning (the Chinese GP quali finished just before 08:00, so the timing was perfect for 08:45 at the field). Took the Wot4 foam-E and the Aquila. Had several good thrash-arounds with the wottie. For all its limitations its still an enjoyable machine with decent control response and unlimited vertical. The wing wobbles a bit on the front mounts, but it doesn't seem to get any worse so I'll just keep an eye on it.

The last time I flew this model the Rx seemed to lose bind between flights. I put it down to the cheap Orange Rx, but the penny finally dropped during the week and I was able to confirm it this morning. The Transmitter I'm using is my trusty Mpx Royal Evo. A few years ago I modified it to use a switchable a Specky DSM2 module that was attached on the back with double-sided tape. It worked, but it looked untidy. So a few months ago I replaced it with a much tidier installation using an Orange "DIY Module" fitted inside the Tx, with external bind button and bind light. This module can handle DSM2 or DSMX, in both 22msec and 11msec frame rates (4 options). It "negotiates" operating mode during binding.

What I hadn't realised was that unlike most of the other protocols, the Specky systems don't include mode information in the normal data stream - they save the mode in the model memory. So with a "DIY module" there is no way for the module to know when you switch to a different model that needs a different mode. By default the module simply remains in whatever mode the last bind left it in. It just happens that some of my older models use early Orange DSM2 receivers while some have much more recent DSM2/DSMX ones. And so when I was flying two models alternately it was sod's law that they needed different modes, and it seemed to lose bind when it just needed to switch modes.

I tried an obscure technique which my wife had sometimes suggested called "reading the manual" - apparently it's a female trick that has proven effective. It turns out that the bind light flashes between none and three times in succession to indicate which of the four modes it's in. I also discovered that three quick presses on the bind button toggles it into the next mode. So it was simply a matter of finding which mode each model needed, placing a mark next to the battery and then confirming the mode on the Tx when fitting the new battery for the flight.

Whilst rummaging through the Rx drawer last weekend I had stumbled across an Orange Rx with integral 3-axis gyro. I vaguely remember buying a couple of them a few years ago, but had never used them. So I thought it might be interesting to try one out in the Aquilla being of perfect configuration for this sort of thing:

ila_rendered

I fitted it configured to be switchable from the Tx, and spent a few flights tweaking the gains on each axis. With a bit of messing about I could find settings which made the blustery wind seem smooth and calm, and I could get a hands-off prop-hang for about 5 seconds at a time. So it seems to work well enough, although I could only get it to work on one aileron - the manual claims it can still work with twin aileron servos but I couldn't seem to make that work.

Report ends.

PDR
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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2019, 18:23:10 PM »
Went flying again this morning  -this is becoming a habit. Took the Wottie and the Gemini. The Wottie went well and continued to demonstrate it's excellent "bang for buck" properties, which is just as well because the Gemini went sick. Last time I flew it the Gemini had a bit of hesitation on throttle-up which I put down to having swapped the ESC for the one out of my Squall which (I assumed) had non-ideal timing settings for the low Kv outrunner (E-Power 2815) rather than the screaming EDF motor it was intended for. I din't mind, and inn fact it felt a bit fun to have a motor which behaved as if it had a hot cam and poor low-range running! But this week it was much worse - sometimes it would spool up normally, but other times it made a screeching noise and stuck at about 6,000rpm. It seemed to need "tickling" to get it to pick up. I assumed that this was the ESC and just flew 8 batteries out on the wottie instead.

When I got home I swapped the ESC for a decent Jeti one, but there was no change. So I pulled the motor for inspection. The bearings are fine, and none of the magnets are loose, but some spinning checks suggest that it may have an intermittent open-circuit in one winding. I think it's internal rather than in the connectors, so that's a dead motor. It was only a cheapie, so it's not worth getting wound up over.

But I like the Gemini, so I looked around the workshop to see what I had in stock. My eye fell on my simprop hotliner which I'm not currently flying because its buried elevator servo has a notchy gear. It had an ancient Jeti Phasor 30/3 (one of my first brushless motors and unusually an inrunner). It's significantly more powerful than the 2815 (>400w rather than 300w), but I though it was worth a try. 20 minutes later this motor was securely bolted into the Gemini with the original [squall] ESC, but I have no charged batteries for an installation run and power check so next week will find out how this goes...

[report ends]

PDR

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Offline Bad Raven

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 21:22:26 »
A motor screaming is from long experience usually as you say timing. I have never had that noise with a winding gone. Then they start "ticking" with much lower pitch and jagged movement back and fore, sometimes managing to rotate almost normally at some throttle settings only.

I live to this day with a Dr David Halko "Hyperfly" delta that screams and almost stops rotating during the first 30 seconds of a battery if throttle raised too high. I live with it and nurse it past that point as that timing makes it ballistic once the battery drops a little voltage!

What was the Simprop hotliner, was it a "Rabbit"?  If so I have had one for quite a few years, inherited free with a MD 500E 600 class Helicopter.  I was given two batteries it had been flown with, so fitted one, and on what I thought was enough pull at roughly half throttle threw it. It immediately flipped into prop hang as I tried to get it away, but jabbing full throttle and full down ele got it away, albeit super nervous. I added 40g weight in the extreme nose and it then flew fine. It's previous "tenant" (it had been passed around a lot I was later told!) said he could not remember if he had flown it or not, which might seem strange, but he was renting a storage unit for all his planes, he had so many!
The user formerly know as Bravedan........... Well if Prince can do it....................

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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #28 on: Yesterday at 22:35:16 »
Definitely not timing. Not when the same symptoms persist with massively different ESCs. If I can be bothered I may investigate it in detail in the future, but for the moment it's just parked in the drawer.

The hotliner is a Simprop Lift-Off XS (the middle-sized one of the three). I've flown it with various batteries from 12sub-C 2600s(!) to a 3s2200 setup. Climb is vertical on all of these, and on the glide after diving from a 10sec climb it was clocked at 180mph, but aside from the speed it's not actually that interesting to fly. It could do with a rudder (none of the hotliners of that era had rudders for some reason) and flaps to add to the spoilerons for full crow. On just spoilerons it's not easy to land in small fields.

PDR
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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #29 on: Today at 10:23:36 »
………………..
The hotliner is a Simprop Lift-Off XS (the middle-sized one of the three). ......... It could do with a rudder (none of the hotliners of that era had rudders for some reason) …………………………………….

All my hotliners (actually F5B competition planes) from the late 1980s up to this year have been without rudders.
For F5B I always assumed it was because:-
(a)   with the elevator servo in the fin there was not really enough space for a rudder
(b)   it would add unnecessary weight at an undesirable location
(c)   for F5B competitions of speed round a course, thermal soaring, and spot landing it wouldn’t add sufficient benefit given (a) and (b).

For general sport flying I agree a rudder might be more desirable, but there is a tendency for the marketing men to ape competition model practices in the hope of selling more items!

………and flaps to add to the spoilerons for full crow. On just spoilerons it's not easy to land in small fields……………. 

Full crow definitely helps, but I found with my aileron only RFM Surprises I could manage quite steep descents into spot landings with the ailerons up at about 45 degrees and a high-ish angle of attack – sort of a controlled nose-up stall (reversed differential on the ailerons allowed lateral control).
Not pretty perhaps, but all part of the fun.

Dick
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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #30 on: Today at 13:03:30 »
The "Rabbit" is also sans rudder, and I have spoilerons set up, which do have a helpful effect, though I would have liked more, the angle limited by needing decent aileron left to land given no rudder.

Like a couple of my more powerful wings, it still needs a long glide circuit to get it slow enough to land on our small and tree lined patch.  Good news is that it is remarkably stall resistant.given that it has a minimum speed faster than some power models, it just does not slow further!

Mine has a Perkins Inrunner, 40A Hobbywing and 60C 2200mAh 3S (which "just" fits).
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Re: The stars aligned
« Reply #31 on: Today at 13:09:24 »
The "Rabbit" is also sans rudder, and I have spoilerons set up, which do have a helpful effect, though I would have liked more, the angle limited by needing decent aileron left to land given no rudder.  ....................................................

Hence my comment about reverse differential with the ailerons right up - no more up aileron, just more down available - to give lateral control on landing. Many Tx allow differential to be reversed when spoilerons are applied.

Dick
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