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September 23, 2018, 10:12:14 AM

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Author Topic: F104 1/4 scale scratch build  (Read 3604 times)

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F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« on: March 06, 2018, 13:49:31 PM »
Just starting a build on a F104 star fighter in 1/4 scale, using a short wood kit from Mirce models,
The kit arrived while i was in the uk and my partner had the usual troubles with the over the top customs officials, but Mirce spent a long time helping my partner out, including q 15 minutes on the phone talking to her explaining things
Due entirely to his help they released it without charging the extortionate charge they wanted, over and above service from Mirce i cannot thank him enough
And the kit is of exceptional quality, it came fully protected in a biggish box and  all parts wrapped in bubble wrap
Will post some pictures later
Tony   
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2018, 15:32:20 PM »
Tony, dangerous thing ordering one of those when you ain't there to receive it; didn't the Luftwaffe call them the widow makers? :ev
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2018, 17:27:22 PM »
And "The flying coffin", I saw one in Berlin f** me, the wings look more like stabiliser fins from a rocket  ???
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2018, 18:04:09 PM »
And "The flying coffin", I saw one in Berlin f** me, the wings look more like stabiliser fins from a rocket  ???
Killed a lot of Luftwaffe pilots. But it was used as the basis for the U2.

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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2018, 18:58:27 PM »
Killed a lot of Luftwaffe pilots. But it was used as the basis for the U2.

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No it wasn't. The P80 Shooting star was.

But if the model was to be really different, it could be converted to the two seat version used by NASA as a chase plane for the X15. The actual plane (Now in USAF colours) flown by Neil Armstrong is at McClellan museum.
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2018, 19:03:55 PM »
Models of F104's fly well though. The Avonds F104 was an nice flying model. The prototype flew for 11 years.
Regards,

John

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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2018, 19:08:15 PM »
No it wasn't. The P80 Shooting star was.

But if the model was to be really different, it could be converted to the two seat version used by NASA as a chase plane for the X15. The actual plane (Now in USAF colours) flown by Neil Armstrong is at McClellan museum.
Sorry Steve,
You are wrong. The U2 fuselage was a converted F104 fuselage, with tandem U/C and a traditional low tailplane instead of a T tail. Then the added the sensor suite.
 Regards,

John


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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2018, 19:39:46 PM »
No it wasn't. The P80 Shooting star was.

But if the model was to be really different, it could be converted to the two seat version used by NASA as a chase plane for the X15. The actual plane (Now in USAF colours) flown by Neil Armstrong is at McClellan museum.
Well don't want to start an argument here. I thought it was the xf104, and Wikipedia agrees with me. Both Kelly Johnson designs. Can you clarify?

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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2018, 21:28:23 PM »
Not wanting to hijack the thread, but for those really interested, this document on this link may be worth a read..............................

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/unlimited-horizons.pdf

HTH
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2018, 21:38:18 PM »
Well don't want to start an argument here. I thought it was the xf104, and Wikipedia agrees with me. Both Kelly Johnson designs. Can you clarify?

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I stand corrected. Though there's a bit of a debate on this link, including mention of the RB57. The common designer of all three might be the clue though. 'Modular' aircraft.

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/dLHhC4ZW0NI
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2018, 22:05:32 PM »
Not wanting to hijack the thread, but for those really interested, this document on this link may be worth a read..............................

https://www.nasa.gov/sites/default/files/atoms/files/unlimited-horizons.pdf

HTH
Excellent! Got me fancying a slope version. Not the black, though.......

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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2018, 22:09:35 PM »
I dont mind a discussion on here it shows someone is looking in and its on subject
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2018, 09:35:30 AM »
It came in a box 900x700x200 packed tight with the parts, no bulky packaging only what was around the parts, no damage at all,sections wrapped together
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2018, 16:40:50 PM »
We see a u2 take off most weekends when we are flying from the base at Akrotiri as we fly close to the base, very noisy
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #14 on: March 07, 2018, 19:46:12 PM »
We see a u2 take off most weekends when we are flying from the base at Akrotiri as we fly close to the base, very noisy
Still in use? Even 1960s Russia shot one down. I wouldn't fancy that gig.

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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2018, 22:45:13 PM »
Made a start on the wing tanks, they are 1300 mm long, the 4 mm ply parts all fit perfectly, planking it all in 3mm balsa
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2018, 00:03:36 AM »
Still in use? Even 1960s Russia shot one down. I wouldn't fancy that gig.

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Look up James May's preparation and flight in a two seat version on YouTube. It was in two parts with the first starting in a chase car as one came into land. 
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2018, 13:02:41 PM »
Better still, read Rolly Beaumont's thoughts on preparation for and actually flying an F104 in the book "testing early jets". His comments are (as ever) informed and illuminating.

On the earlier discussion (F104 vs U2) it is true that the original basic concept sketches for the U2 showed an f104 fuselage with a longer wing (a bit like the RB57D being a canberra with a stretched wing). But when they did the detailed design is was a completely new aeroplane with no common parts the U2 fuselage is 7 feet longer, a different diameter and has the wing mounted in a different place (never mind what the low-tail vs t-tail and the bicycle U/C do for the structural requirements). The internal  systems layouts are completely different as well. So the commonality was only at the initial concept sketch stage.

Also references to Yeagar taking an F104 on altitude-record flights on a whim are false. Yeagar was involved in the NF-104A programme which used modified F104s (with a rocket booster and reaction controls) to provide out-of-atmosphere familiarisation flights for astronaut candidates so they could experience manoeuvering with reaction controls. This was the "plumb" flight testing job in the USA at the time other than space fligfht. Yeager had been rejected from the space programme because he lacked the basic engineering degree-level education to do that job, and he had a big chip on his shoulder about that. So he used his status as "the right stuff man" and the only test pilot of general rank to get himself assigned to the programme.

Right from the start there were problems. To do what was required involved flying very precise trajectories defined by the engineering team, but Chuck "didn't take no orders from no over-educated engineering weenie who ain't never broken no sound barrier, sonny!", and in many flights he NEVER followed the profile and NEVER achieved the flight test objectives. Other test pilots understood what they were actually trying to do, followed the profile and achieved the objectives, but yeager never did. And in the end he got himself into an unrecoverable spin leading to a crash. It was his own fault - simple incompetence compounded by being too arrogant to take information from lesser mortals (ie anyone other than himself). After the crash there was a board of enquiry, but yeager used his friends and his rank to get that whitewashed. By this stage most of his professional peers/colleagues refused to fly with him or under him, because the reality had finally punctured the myth of the "great yeager"

You can read the true story in various places, like here.

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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2018, 14:33:49 PM »
Better still, read Rolly Beaumont's thoughts on preparation for and actually flying an F104 in the book "testing early jets". His comments are (as ever) informed and illuminating.

On the earlier discussion (F104 vs U2) it is true that the original basic concept sketches for the U2 showed an f104 fuselage with a longer wing (a bit like the RB57D being a canberra with a stretched wing). But when they did the detailed design is was a completely new aeroplane with no common parts the U2 fuselage is 7 feet longer, a different diameter and has the wing mounted in a different place (never mind what the low-tail vs t-tail and the bicycle U/C do for the structural requirements). The internal  systems layouts are completely different as well. So the commonality was only at the initial concept sketch stage.

Also references to Yeagar taking an F104 on altitude-record flights on a whim are false. Yeagar was involved in the NF-104A programme which used modified F104s (with a rocket booster and reaction controls) to provide out-of-atmosphere familiarisation flights for astronaut candidates so they could experience manoeuvering with reaction controls. This was the "plumb" flight testing job in the USA at the time other than space fligfht. Yeager had been rejected from the space programme because he lacked the basic engineering degree-level education to do that job, and he had a big chip on his shoulder about that. So he used his status as "the right stuff man" and the only test pilot of general rank to get himself assigned to the programme.

Right from the start there were problems. To do what was required involved flying very precise trajectories defined by the engineering team, but Chuck "didn't take no orders from no over-educated engineering weenie who ain't never broken no sound barrier, sonny!", and in many flights he NEVER followed the profile and NEVER achieved the flight test objectives. Other test pilots understood what they were actually trying to do, followed the profile and achieved the objectives, but yeager never did. And in the end he got himself into an unrecoverable spin leading to a crash. It was his own fault - simple incompetence compounded by being too arrogant to take information from lesser mortals (ie anyone other than himself). After the crash there was a board of enquiry, but yeager used his friends and his rank to get that whitewashed. By this stage most of his professional peers/colleagues refused to fly with him or under him, because the reality had finally punctured the myth of the "great yeager"

You can read the true story in various places, like here.

PDR
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2018, 18:30:08 PM »
Just starting a build on a F104 star fighter in 1/4 scale

Have you decided on a scheme?

Steve

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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2018, 21:50:43 PM »
Yes Steve it will be the Bavarian 25 anniversary number 2662 but i dont know how to get the picture on here ,
Computers and me do not gel at all ::)
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2018, 20:38:34 PM »
On the second wing tank, and started the nose cone



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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #23 on: March 13, 2018, 09:52:34 AM »
Getting on with the assembly








yavas yavas slowly slowly
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #24 on: March 15, 2018, 00:38:19 AM »
I built a F 104 from the Avonds kit and thoroughly enjoyed flying it and even got away with some deadstick landings.

I did a fair bit or reading up on the 104 and working from memory can recall the following

The fuz was the basis of the U2.

It was designed as a high altitude high speed fighter. It held speed and altitude records for many years.

When dirtied up with bombs and stores and flown slowly and at low altitudes it has a fairly narrow safe flight envelope. Flirting with the edges of the envelope killed lots of germans and earned it the widow maker nick name.

2575 StARFIGHTERS were built. It first entered service in 1958.  The last Starfighters in combat service, the F-104S-ASA/M was withdrawn in October 2004 (the last unit being 10 Gruppo/9 Stormo, Grazzanise), I believe more Stafighters were built than any other jet fighter.  I believe no other jet fighter has a longer period of combat service at an astonishing 42 years.

There are numerous stories of it embarrassing much younger fighters in one on one air combat.

There is a fascinating unwritten history of politics skullduggery bribery at high levels surrounding it's adoption and foreign sales.

Mine weighed 14.5 lbs dry. I knew of one that flew well at 22 lbs. 

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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2018, 09:06:34 AM »
Thanks for the info  TQA it indeed is an interesting subject, one of the things that killed the German pilots was the difference in the weather from their training ground in America, clear calm weather to the bad weather in Germany where the younger pilots could not cope with, or so i read
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2018, 12:35:12 PM »
The fuz was the basis of the U2.

As I said, this was only at the "drawing outines on brochures" concept stage. The physical designs are very different - amongst other things the Starfighter was powered by a Westinghouse J79 engine while even the early U2 was powered by a P&WJ75, and these are very different engines. The J75 is 4" bigger in diameter and over 1,000lbs heavier than the J79, needing a very different structure to carry it.

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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #27 on: March 16, 2018, 12:09:05 PM »
Working on the tail and fin section, trying to get it all assembled
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2018, 09:11:54 AM »
The wing is done the same as the rest of it, just sorting the parts and gluing together, making sure everything is square and true, it really is a superb short kit
Then of cause i had to have a look at her bolted together
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2018, 11:50:47 AM »
Been planking the wing tank and sheeting the elevator
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2018, 23:05:57 PM »
Pushing on with her
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2018, 09:17:25 AM »
Awesome! Pass me an orange...... :D

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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #32 on: March 27, 2018, 23:04:53 PM »
Sheeting top of wings wit tanks attached
And my boy fancies being the pilot
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2018, 09:50:59 AM »
Out of interest - why did they provide frames to simulate the canopy shape? Is that so you can plank the frames and use them as a buck to mould your own canopy?

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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2018, 10:54:59 AM »
Yes Pete that is why, although they sell a canopy for it,which I have, like I said before it is a very complete kit, without question the best I have come across
Thanks for the interest
Tony
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #35 on: March 29, 2018, 20:44:51 PM »
Work progresses with the sheeting and planking
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #36 on: March 30, 2018, 01:13:06 AM »

Right from the start there were problems. To do what was required involved flying very precise trajectories defined by the engineering team, but Chuck "didn't take no orders from no over-educated engineering weenie who ain't never broken no sound barrier, sonny!", and in many flights he NEVER followed the profile and NEVER achieved the flight test objectives. Other test pilots understood what they were actually trying to do, followed the profile and achieved the objectives, but yeager never did. And in the end he got himself into an unrecoverable spin leading to a crash. It was his own fault - simple incompetence compounded by being too arrogant to take information from lesser mortals (ie anyone other than himself). After the crash there was a board of enquiry, but yeager used his friends and his rank to get that whitewashed. By this stage most of his professional peers/colleagues refused to fly with him or under him, because the reality had finally punctured the myth of the "great yeager"



PDR


Don't mean to hijack the thread but I've just had an enjoyable lunch with my good friend here. He is ex USAF flew in Vietnam, is an electrical engineer by trade and became a pilot, worked at Boeing too before going on to work for himself and now has a little Cessna, and has met Yeager twice. He was at Edwards after Yeager had left to make money on his legendary status....

The upshot, my pal says Yeager was obnoxious, pushy and a loudmouth. (You mean a typical Yank?  :D). He was disliked and distrusted before the reactive control testing in the converted 104. , but he said (as Pete quoted) Yaeger wasn't a team player, not at all. The day before the long time arranged X1 sound barrier flight, Yeager went boozing, and horse riding, got thrown into a fence and badly bruised his ribs. Went back to base and didn't report it to the flight surgeon. He got found out afterwards but as my pal said he could have put his own life, other people's lives and the whole programme in jeopardy--He got quite angry telling me that last bit.
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2018, 10:09:09 AM »
Slowly onward
The man that never made a mistake
Never made anything

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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2018, 12:03:06 PM »
Slowly onward ? , your build is the speed of sound, great stuff  :af
 it's making me look for a summer build, 20cc petrol ordered  ^-^
  40+ planes just isn't enough  :co
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Re: F104 1/4 scale scratch build
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2018, 06:16:53 AM »
Started to make up my own main gear
The man that never made a mistake
Never made anything


 

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