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Author Topic: 'Instant' batteries  (Read 8739 times)

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Offline skirmish

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2010, 15:12:11 PM »
"Instants" seems to be a name used for low self discharge NiMH cells (LSD)

Similar to Eneloop by Sanyo, but cheaper.
Instants are the brand name for low self discharge Vapextech cells.


Offline half throttle

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2010, 15:46:48 PM »
Instants are the brand name for low self discharge Vapextech cells.

Sorry, missed the Vapextech plug.  ;)
'Concerning myself with the reasoning processes of your cerebral cortex is notably absent from my tables of consideration at this juncture'

Offline Skyleader

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2010, 12:08:26 PM »
"Instants" seems to be a name used for low self discharge NiMH cells (LSD)

Similar to Eneloop by Sanyo, but cheaper.


Thank you for the sensible answer; I thought perhaps they were.
I have Eneloop 'Instants', both 6 volt and 4.8 and find them good. I paticularly like the fast chage facility.
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Offline skirmish

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2010, 13:54:18 PM »
It would seem that the name 'Instants' is becoming a generic term for any low self discharge cells.

Offline half throttle

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2010, 14:24:18 PM »
It would seem that the name 'Instants' is becoming a generic term for any low self discharge cells.

It totally baffled me to start with.

Still, nothing new there.  :''
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Offline Phil_G

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2010, 14:27:17 PM »
For anyone equiping a park-flyer on a budget, these cells have tested very well, would be ok for a 2.4g parky tx...
Phil

Offline miniflight

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #46 on: March 06, 2010, 15:07:56 PM »
To charge my Eneloop Tx battery (8 cells) my charger gives me the option to adjust the sensitivity of the delta peak setting between 3mV to 25mv per cell, which setting would be best for this Eneloop battery?

                                                  Thanks MinF

Offline Phil_G

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #47 on: March 06, 2010, 17:41:39 PM »
7mv per cell for NiMh (eg Eneloops/Instants), 12mv per cell for NiCd.
Phil


Offline miniflight

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #48 on: March 06, 2010, 22:46:18 PM »
7mv per cell for NiMh (eg Eneloops/Instants), 12mv per cell for NiCd.
Phil



              Many thanks Phil  :af



Offline xairflyer

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2010, 18:57:55 PM »
I have read many times in the past that nimh batteries need to be charged at C/10 minimum so charging at 2100ma pack with a 150ma wall charger is not going to charge them properly.

Ni-cads differ from this in that you can charge them as slow as you like it just takes more time.

I have always charged my instants at 400ma sometimes 300ma and sometimes had to switch off the charger before it peaked as the pack was warm.

The 0.5c to 1c mentioned above could explain that, and something I never thought about.

I have charged at 1A before and always thought the battery false peaked but I am now thinking it was ok and I have been actually over charging them using the low rate.

Also I have always set the peak at 5mv for Nimh to prevent over charging.

Can someone who actually knows fact (not meaning to offend others) please quote safe charging rates for these 2100 AA instant cells as some info above would not be clear to some.

If Phil G says 7mv peak for nimh and 12mv for nicad that is good enough for me, now just a confirmation on charge rates.   What does Vapex say ?

Offline marcellus

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2010, 19:23:11 PM »
I charge my several Instant packs at 0.3 - 0.5 A depending on how much of a hurry I am in.

The first pack I had to replace, was after two years + approx. and I'd been topping it up at 70 mA as a charging method, so I decided to peak charge at a higher rate and things seem fine for my other 6 or 8 packs!

Offline Phil_G

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2010, 21:12:06 PM »
now just a confirmation on charge rates.   What does Vapex say ?


Offline marcellus

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2010, 21:28:26 PM »
IMHO only a PRATT would charge at 1C despite what the manufacturer says.

But then I am an old fahrt in a changing world that needs re-educating regarding today's new cells and so on.

I'll stick with my 1/2C - 1/3C regardless and crash happy....

Offline Phil_G

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2010, 22:50:03 PM »
Quote from: marcellus
IMHO only a PRATT would charge at 1C despite what the manufacturer says.
I typed and deleted so many answers to this but I really dont know what to say to that insult, its totally unjustified. How you can 'humbly' insult people is beyond me. Enjoy your thread. Bye.

Phil
« Last Edit: March 27, 2010, 19:39:29 PM by Phil_G »

Offline xairflyer

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2010, 23:55:34 PM »
I think Phil was only pointing out that the manuf says max 2100ma meaning you can safely charge upto that.

I charged a new pack tonight that has only had about three cycles at .5C (1000ma) and set the peak to 7mv the pack took about 570ma which I reckon to be near enough and the pack was just slightly warm.  So looks good to me.

I would say 300ma is not enough for a reliable peak and they will get over charged (over heat pack) at that rate.

I will charge all my instants now at 1000ma.


Offline xairflyer

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #55 on: March 27, 2010, 00:02:36 AM »
Something that applies to all batteries in aircraft - not a good idea to be fast charging through a switch i.e. using the third charging lead, those normal rc switches are not designed for high currents.

If you want to fast charge at 1A plus then un-plug to charge.

Offline aV8er

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #56 on: March 27, 2010, 09:31:01 AM »
I'm afraid that if I had a switch that I thought wouldn't take 1A, I wouldn't be using it to supply my receiver and servos!
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Offline satinet

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #57 on: March 27, 2010, 16:20:43 PM »
i did think that. The servos can draw more than you can charge at, but of course max discharge rates are much higher.

Offline marcellus

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #58 on: March 27, 2010, 17:00:14 PM »
I asked around the slope this pm and there are quite a few charging NiMh at 1C without problems. It seems I must be taken out and shot as behind the times. Many still charge, like me as old scholl and a bit more slowly!

No personal offence meant to Phil or even reference to him...

Offline xairflyer

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #59 on: March 27, 2010, 18:30:46 PM »
Fast charging through a switch has been known to cause corrosion same as the dreaded black wire corrosion.

Offline -steves-

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #60 on: March 28, 2010, 11:17:57 AM »
Well I am only of a very few people it appears, my Vapatex batteries are now all in the bin and I would never use them again, however I am having better luck with the sanyo eneloop cells. The Vaptech (tex, whatever) from Ebay, never held a proper charge from day one and this was on 2 decent chargers and the 4 packs I bought.

As for 1C charging any AA battery I would highly NOT recommend this after seeing a friend at the field try charging some that we rated at 1C and trying to charge them at 1C, I ended up ripping the pack out of his plane with a pair of pliers as the pack was smoking very badly and banging and hissing like mad, in the hedge they went. These were not vapatex ones I hasten to add  :)

Just a couple of personal experiences to share with you all, not knocking any make as lots of you are having great luck with them  :af
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Offline marcellus

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2010, 11:21:36 AM »
Steves,

Were the Vapextec cells the green Instant ones?

Offline skirmish

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2010, 12:54:02 PM »
Well as I've said before, I'm very much on the front line regarding Vapextech as I sell them on Ebay. If you check my feedback I'm at around 3800 (100%) and have probably sold well over 5000 packs by now. It really is extremely rare that I get a complaint and those that I do get always seem to be caused by incorrect charging. If anything the problem is when a high rate trickle charger is used and just left going when the pack is fully charged.
For the record, I've been actually using the packs for quite a long time now and I charge my AA size packs at 700mA and the AAA's at 400mA. I use a Ripmax Prodigy Pro Peak. I've never had any problems charging at these rates and my packs have lasted quite a long time.

Offline paulplane

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #63 on: March 28, 2010, 13:07:17 PM »
I use the ripmax 600mah wall charger for overnight, as it does the tx as well and has delta peak cut-off. So no worry there. I found the instant Vapextec is all I'm buying now, replacing my older/duff battery packs and going that way.
I reckon most problems are user-related and have had more trouble with other makes and even some Nicad makes. I'm not using them anymore, but have some 500mah Nicad batteries from 1990, which still work and are giving almost a full charge.
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Offline -steves-

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #64 on: March 28, 2010, 18:01:37 PM »
Yup, they were the green and silver ones, and nope, I have never complained and I left postive feedback as I leave feedback early not a month later once I have fully tested it. Still not complaining, just saying I personally would never use them again  $%& But saying that I am starting to move over from AA cells to li-pos and A123 cells now as they hold a much better voltage under load  :)
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Offline xairflyer

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #65 on: March 28, 2010, 20:21:27 PM »
Been out flying today and just charged up all my packs again (one great benefit of instants is you can charge after flying and leave ready for next day out).
All 4 packs I charged up, were just starting to get warm when the peaked out, charging at 1000ma.

Before when charging at 300-400ma they would have been a lot warmer when peaked and many times I stopped the charge myself because I though the pack was too warm.

Really think too low a rate has been an issue, going to replace my older ones now and charge them properly from the start.

Offline Mole Hunter

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #66 on: March 30, 2010, 22:39:46 PM »
I emailed Vapextech and asked them what the optimum rate of charge would be for a an Instant rx pack. The reply is quoted below:

Quote
Hello Mark

At about 500ma is best.

Thanks
Paul

From the horses mouth, so to speak. :study:
« Last Edit: March 31, 2010, 00:33:07 AM by BB-Q »
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Offline paulplane

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #67 on: March 30, 2010, 23:10:21 PM »
So my 600mah charger is about spot on.  :af
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Offline Mole Hunter

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #68 on: March 31, 2010, 00:32:44 AM »
And mine! ;)
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Offline -steves-

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #69 on: March 31, 2010, 11:01:45 AM »
Cool, same as mine, even if they didnt last very long, lol ;D
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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #70 on: May 08, 2010, 20:51:54 PM »
I have been using 'intants' for a couple of years now and they have been good  and are inexpensive. Also they always arrive in the post very quickly. I am in the habit of peak fast charging while I have breakfast etc. on the day of flying and so have not noticed how well they have held their charge compared to other packs I own.
Recently, however, I have been charging the  TX and Rx batts the night before (approx 8pm) and going to the field after work. I start flying about 5pm. I always check the Rx batts with a Hitec batt tester which tests on load. I have noticed that the Rx batts are showing 100% or above the night before but down to 90% when I check before flying. I get about four flights untill I get a reading of about 50% and so I call it a day.
I was wondering if others could confirm if this approx 10% drop seems about right for 'Instants' or eneloops?

Offline Phil_G

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #71 on: May 08, 2010, 21:38:13 PM »
"Battery Testers" can be quite misleading since they only measure voltage and NiMh dont have a linear discharge curve.  The only real way to measure your batteries capacity is to do a measured amp/hour discharge.
Occasionally I've tested Instants which were last charged several months ago and found them to hold almost a full charge - for example my lads Wot Trainer hasnt been flown (or charged) since last October, I recently did a measured discharge & got almost 1900 ma/h out of the 2100 capacity, almost 90% retention. 
They can go bad, as can any cell, overcharging is a common cause, especially when 'trickle' charging.
If you have doubts about your pack you could try measuring their capacity, you'll probably find they are fine.
Cheers
Phil

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2010, 03:21:04 AM »
Phil or someone can you explain this delta peak thing, am I right is saying that a lower mV setting will stop the charge earlier ?
Many guys I know who use prodigy chargers say that they peak too soon using Nimh batteries, I have one charger (chineese mystery brand) that I think over charges them.

Offline Arceenut

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2010, 06:53:27 AM »
Nickel cadmium and nickel metal hydride batteries exhibit a characteristic that the voltage drops minutely when full charge is achieved.  The charging voltage increases very slowly as the battery is charged, then rises sharply as full charge is approached,  then  drops a little as the battery becomes fully charged. "peak detect chargers" monitor this slight drop to determine the "full charge" point to terminate the charge cycle.  NiMh batteries have a less pronounced drop at full charge than NiCd.  Chargers typically set the peak/drop detect voltage at 5 mV per cell for NiCd and 2.5 mV per cell for NiMh.
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Offline marcellus

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #74 on: June 02, 2010, 08:35:56 AM »
I decided to charge my 2100 mA loose Instant cells for my camera. I had no idea how discharged they were when I removed them, well over a year ago.

They took only 525 mA from a 0.5 Amp peak charge, capacity retention just as advertised.

Offline xairflyer

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2010, 10:26:12 AM »
One of my chargers seems to heat up a pack a lot more than the others I have tried reducing the peak to 5mv but not much difference.  It does have a temp probe input and you can set the max temp cut off.
Anyone know what is the temp cut off of a full charged Nimh pack ? I know it will depend on ambient but how much above ambient ? I have been experimenting with around 40c max

Offline marcellus

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2010, 11:18:21 AM »
'Slightly warm to the touch! If our temp is 37 deg C ish then 40 ish isn' going to be too far out.

Offline Skyleader

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #77 on: July 01, 2010, 08:31:02 AM »
Ordered a pack of Instants from Vapextech and had them within 24 hours. I don't use anything else.

So you think i'm allright buying these then mate ?
6v RX Packs Hi-MH+ 2100mAh vapextech with Futaba lead ?.
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Offline Pro Anti

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #78 on: July 14, 2010, 15:01:59 PM »
I have a 2100mah 6v rx pack and 2100mah tx pack.
To be honest i have been charging at 1C with a pro peak charger and the packs do get hot,not warm.
I would like to see if they have been "damaged" at all and do a cycle to see what they take.What is the most i can  discharge at safely?
I will now charge at 0.6a in future

Offline brand1068

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Re: 'Instant' batteries
« Reply #79 on: July 14, 2010, 16:07:35 PM »
We have quite a few of the vapextech packs - in fack all 3 of our tx's are on the instant ones.

Models get charged at .5a and the tx's get wall charged from the futaba wall chargers.

ALL get cycled every 6 months twice. 1 amp discharge .5 amp charge.

oldest is 2 and a bit years old still going strong.

Chris
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