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Author Topic: Occasional model glitch - Interference?  (Read 2433 times)

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Offline jdquinn

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Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« on: January 06, 2018, 17:25:46 PM »
Hi all,

Hopefully someone can help.  I havenít flown a rc Ďplane in at least 10 years; back in September I decided to buy a couple of planes cheap of gumtree.  I bought a extreme flight vanquish and PA addiction x fully equipped bar tx and rx and batteries.  Both are as new but when I last flew rc everything was nitro so a bit of a learning curve for me into electric flight.

Anyway my old futaba 35mhz kit has never been abused so Iím sticking with it for now.  I installed it into both planes and prepped them for flight.  Checking motor amps wand power. 

Iím fortunate enough to be able to fly out of my back garden ( very rural setting) so this afternoon I range tested the PA Addiction X with the aerial down to about 50ft.  I extended the aerial and as all was good took a breath and hand launched into the air.  This was my first time flying from this location and in 10 years so settled myself down and proceeded to roughly trim and then tried a landing approach finishing with a gentle touchdown in long grass.

All good so far so up I went again, using only full throttle for the immediate hand launch and pulling back to half throttle for gentle circuits etc.  After about 1-2 minutes the plane was coming towards me and it pitched to the left abruptly.  I knew it wasnít an input from me and range wise it was probably only 40 metres or so.  I kept it to the back of my mind and continued flying.  About 30s later the plane suddenly pitched up.  At this point I decided to bring it in and landed nice and softly beside me.  Weather was calm to soft breeze but surrounded by small hills and trees.

Now Iím a mixture of emotions as Iím really pleased to get my first flight in and doubly pleased I actually can takeoff and land in my own back garden.  I am however worried that my tx/rx is no longer up to the job.

Kit is as follows:

Addiction X plane
Thrust 40 motor
45A Esc by PA
12x6e prop
14.8v 20c 3000mAH battery
Futaba T7CP Tx
Brand new 5ch Rx from unfinished deagostini spitfire

Does anyone have any ideas as to what can cause this?  I also noticed on higher throttle occasionally the motor would slow before picking up revs, could this be related?
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 17:27:44 PM by jdquinn »


Offline paulinfrance

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2018, 17:57:55 PM »
It sounds like electronic interference between the controller/motor and your receiver,,

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2018, 18:15:13 PM »
It sounds like electronic interference between the controller/motor and your receiver,,
A deagostini receiver? Not sure about that. What is it exactly?

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Offline Gryshnak

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2018, 18:43:06 PM »
Did the glitch happen in the same patch of airspace both times?  Do you have any suppression devices on the motor? 

I would suggest getting someone to hold the model off the ground, and repeating your range check with the motor running.  Try it at full throttle, and again at half throttle.  Point the plane and Tx in different directions during the test.  Do your best to replicate those glitches while the plane is still on the ground

Also look out for any metal surfaces that may be touching each other - say, a metal clevis on a metal pushrod.  It shouldn't create a problem with today's RC gear but you could be that 1 in 1000...

Offline jdquinn

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Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2018, 18:44:20 PM »
Itís a code 4.  Really cheap and cheerful but no reason it shouldnít work.  My other plane has a ferrite ring on the rx power source coming from the esc.  Would something like that help?  I have never experienced radio interference issues in 20 years or so of being around rc equipment so Iím not that clued up on how to fault find, especially as its intermittent.

Just thinking there is a 11kV power line running overhead through my property, I kept it behind me at all times when flying and didnít fly within 30m of it but could this be part of the problem?  Distance didnít really seem to be a factor though as it twitched further away the 2nd time.



This is how I have my rx antenna installed.




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« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 18:48:25 PM by jdquinn »


Offline paulinfrance

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #5 on: January 06, 2018, 19:00:35 PM »
Itís a code 4.  Really cheap and cheerful but no reason it shouldnít work.  My other plane has a ferrite ring on the rx power source coming from the esc.  Would something like that help?  I have never experienced radio interference issues in 20 years or so of being around rc equipment so Iím not that clued up on how to fault find, especially as its intermittent.

Just thinking there is a 11kV power line running overhead through my property, I kept it behind me at all times when flying and didnít fly within 30m of it but could this be part of the problem?  Distance didnít really seem to be a factor though as it twitched further away the 2nd time.



This is how I have my rx antenna installed.




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 yes sounds exactly like it, on old brushed motors it happened all of the time, on 2.4ghz, it doesn't seem to be a problem.
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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2018, 19:46:45 PM »
By having the aerial doubled back on itself you cancel that aerial length, so you are only left with a short aerial that is of radio use.

So just let the extra length dangle out behind the model and I would guess all will be well.

Safe flying.

Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool......

Offline jdquinn

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2018, 19:57:47 PM »
yes sounds exactly like it, on old brushed motors it happened all of the time, on 2.4ghz, it doesn't seem to be a problem.

How did you guys get around the glitches back in the day of 35mhz and brushed motors?



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Offline jdquinn

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2018, 19:59:58 PM »
By having the aerial doubled back on itself you cancel that aerial length, so you are only left with a short aerial that is of radio use.

So just let the extra length dangle out behind the model and I would guess all will be well.

Safe flying.

I fly off a paddock with rough grass and rushes in it, is it safe to let the aerial trail like that?  I have always doubled my aerial back like that in all my planes.


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Offline jdquinn

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2018, 20:11:24 PM »
Did the glitch happen in the same patch of airspace both times?  Do you have any suppression devices on the motor? 

I would suggest getting someone to hold the model off the ground, and repeating your range check with the motor running.  Try it at full throttle, and again at half throttle.  Point the plane and Tx in different directions during the test.  Do your best to replicate those glitches while the plane is still on the ground

Also look out for any metal surfaces that may be touching each other - say, a metal clevis on a metal pushrod.  It shouldn't create a problem with today's RC gear but you could be that 1 in 1000...

The glitches happened at varying distance from me.  The motor is cabled directly to the esc which is only a few cm further back in the fus.  Iím not sure if there is suppression built into the esc.  Iíve checked for metals, very limited use on this plane and certainly non contacting or running.  Closed loop rudder is nylon.

Iíll do another range check tomorrow to see if I can replicate the fault.  For now the plane is staying grounded until Iím 100% sure whatís causing this.


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Offline The Stig

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2018, 20:43:16 PM »
Its is the opinion of our club that 35Meg and electric flight are incompatible , we all got glitches with 35 meg , so we ALL changed to 2.4 and not a glitch since !
Asking the ESC manufactures in the early days they "suggested " the 35 meg sets "may" give a problem !  Even Hyperion made a special a 35 RX to over come this problem , ( this helped one of our members but it told the rest of us a lot more !)

Go 2.4 for electric flight "

Offline Phil_G

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2018, 20:45:23 PM »
Just an FYI, the Code-4 was made under license by Hitec.   Not that that helps at all  :af


Offline Gryshnak

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2018, 21:16:17 PM »
Here's a good primer on electrical interference:
http://www.stefanv.com/rcstuff/qf200005.html

Offline Gryshnak

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2018, 21:25:08 PM »
That photo of your rx aerial immediately made me suspicious.  You said the first glitch occurred when the plane was flying towards you?  From that angle there is very little aerial wire visible to pick up the signal.  Was the plane pointing toward you (or directly away) when the second glitch happened?  See if you can route the wire to the top of the fin, then out to the tip of the tailplane so that some of it is visible no matter which way the plane is pointed.  Let any excess dangle, it won't do any harm.

Offline jdquinn

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2018, 21:50:56 PM »
That photo of your rx aerial immediately made me suspicious.  You said the first glitch occurred when the plane was flying towards you?  From that angle there is very little aerial wire visible to pick up the signal.  Was the plane pointing toward you (or directly away) when the second glitch happened?  See if you can route the wire to the top of the fin, then out to the tip of the tailplane so that some of it is visible no matter which way the plane is pointed.  Let any excess dangle, it won't do any harm.

Thanks for helping, the plane was side on when the 2nd glitch occurred.  Iíve already taken the loop out of the receiver wire and fitted a ferrite ring to the rx throttle/supply.  Iíll check in the morning if this has improved anything.  If there is no improvement Iíll try the other plane.  Iíll also swap rxís and xtals.


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Offline jdquinn

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2018, 21:55:28 PM »
Its is the opinion of our club that 35Meg and electric flight are incompatible , we all got glitches with 35 meg , so we ALL changed to 2.4 and not a glitch since !
Asking the ESC manufactures in the early days they "suggested " the 35 meg sets "may" give a problem !  Even Hyperion made a special a 35 RX to over come this problem , ( this helped one of our members but it told the rest of us a lot more !)

Go 2.4 for electric flight "

Ok noted.

Iíll give the 35 another chance for now.  If itís not up to the task then Iíll admit defeat and move to the 2.4 gear.  Iím usually later than most at adopting newer technology.  The plus side of this is I usually benefit from lower pricing and greater reliability, just usually a few years behind everyone else.


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Offline The Stig

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2018, 22:53:36 PM »
I used to fly with JR stuff so good quality ??!  However before I changed to2.4 , I did use Dual Conversion RXes  which did work a lot better,
Mine were Corona..
cheers   


Offline jdquinn

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2018, 23:11:32 PM »
I used to fly with JR stuff so good quality ??!  However before I changed to2.4 , I did use Dual Conversion RXes  which did work a lot better,
Mine were Corona..
cheers
I have a couple of D Conversion rxs that are tied up in nitro heliís but I donít want to strip them out.  I noticed the corona items on eBay, I think they are going for around £20 now but finding xtals in my frequency (35.020 62) is difficult, when they do appear they are nearly the price of a rx now.


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Offline leckyBB

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2018, 23:14:43 PM »
Similar experience to the Stig for me. I used JR 35Mhz equipment but flying in the desert with nothing around I started getting glitches. I changed to 2.4Ghz equipment and have had no further issues first with single antenna FrSky and more recently with diversity antenna Flysky i10. The short antenna of 2.4Ghz receivers are much easier to mount effectively even in small models.
Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.

Offline paulinfrance

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2018, 08:45:00 AM »
I fly on 41 mhz and 2.4, I have always had problems with glitches, my old DG 600 wing servos gave me them and any electrical device especially controllers and brushed motors, I fly my Rafale ( Wren Jubilee ) on 41 MHz,
the answer is twisted servo leads with a ferrite at the plug/receiver end with at least 5 turns on it, the same with
controllers, the Rx is far away from any electrical 'signals' and my Aerial is run down the leading edge of the wing well away from anything metal or Carbon, over 15 years on and it is still glitch free  :uk:
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Offline Phil_G

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2018, 09:49:21 AM »
For the sake of £34 I'd suggest buying one of these and then you can just get on with your flying.
This set has a massive following, its reliable, very capable, and there is a huge variety of receivers from full-size with diversity to indoor micro-bricks.  Keep your existing servos, just replace the receiver and forget all these interference problems.  Thirty-four quid. Delivered!
Cheers
Phil
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 09:51:35 AM by Phil_G »

Offline The Stig

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2018, 11:17:59 AM »
If its got an endorsement from Phil-G, then its got to be a very good bet .
go for it ! At £30 odd squids  its a gift ,

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #22 on: January 07, 2018, 11:59:30 AM »
But where's the fun in that, :embarassed: switch it on, fly and go home, no wondering where the next glitch is coming from,  ^-^ no crashes, and no excuse  to wife why you bought your next plane,,



Ok I also have one of them,,  :-\
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Offline jdquinn

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #23 on: January 07, 2018, 12:18:06 PM »
But where's the fun in that, :embarassed: switch it on, fly and go home, no wondering where the next glitch is coming from,  ^-^ no crashes, and no excuse  to wife why you bought your next plane,,



Ok I also have one of them,,  :-\

Haha,

Thanks for the recommendations, I had no idea prices were so low.  I usually would side step these Ďlowerí brands.  However a quick online search and it appears these sets are reliable!

If I was to change sets I think Iíd go for the flysky taranis q x7 though.  Seems a snip at under £80.  I just canít get my head around rxís and telemetry for these as the majority of users are quadcopter and drone fliers. 

Any hints on this?


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Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2018, 12:36:36 PM »
The one thing that puts me off the FlySky i6 is the AA battery compartment!. Has anyone managed to do a lipo conversion, or is it best to stick to something like Enerloops?
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 12:39:37 PM by EssJay »
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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2018, 12:50:20 PM »
The one thing that puts me off the FlySky i6 is the AA battery compartment!. Has anyone managed to do a lipo conversion, or is it best to stick to something like Enerloops?
Hobbins of Lincoln sold me my first Challenger radio. I was going to put dry cells in it with one of those compartment things things and he showed me how a slight knock made the needle go to zero...I fitted a hard wired pack in.

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2018, 13:05:27 PM »
Ok

Iíve just put half a pack through the Ďplane there.  A 5 minute flight plus 2 min range test at 50% throttle used 45% battery. 

Iím happy to report that although not entirely glitch free I do have fewer and less extreme glitches. 

I think Iíll continue flying as is while I do a bit of research into the flysky systems.  Currently Iím not pushing the range or batteries until I feel a little more comfortable with the system.

My first thoughts on the PA Addiction X on 50% rates are that it is a really nice sport flier on these rates.  It is perfectly weighted for a nice slow controlled landing.  I still have a bit of trimming to do though and put a few hours flights in before I attempt manoeuvres more extreme than loops, Cubans, stall turns and rolls.


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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2018, 14:06:50 PM »
Haha,

Thanks for the recommendations, I had no idea prices were so low.  I usually would side step these Ďlowerí brands.  However a quick online search and it appears these sets are reliable!
I'd suggest its far from a 'lower brand'.  Personally I would trust it over a certain 'leading brand'  :af

If I was to change sets I think Iíd go for the flysky taranis q x7 though.
The Taranis is a Frsky product - Flysky is not Frsky, they are completely different systems from different companies, and use different chipsets and therefore mutually incompatible protocols. You cant mix them.
The Taranis is an enthusiasts radio and needs some dedication to get the most from it.  Some would even say it needs dedication to get the minimum from it... such is its programmability.  If you're familiar with Futaba menus then the Flysky (note FLYsky) i6 operation will be very familiar and a much, much easier learning curve than the Taranis.

But, at the end of the day, you pays your money and takes your choice  :af


Essjay - yes Eneloops seem to be the most popular option. The connectors are clean & tight, and I've not heard of a single case of Bob's suggested problem. Thousands of these are in use with the standard battery arrangement!
Cheers
Phil





« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 14:16:57 PM by Phil_G »

Offline jdquinn

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Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2018, 16:12:08 PM »
I have just had a couple of packs through my Vanquish.  Similar setup experienced some mild glitches as well.  This one is on a futaba single conv. 35mhz rx.  Although it appears very calm here today both planes flew as though there was a mild breeze.  I donít know if itís because there really is a breeze above the tree line, my time away from the hobby forgetting how a plane flies or if it was servo jitter. 

Either way I felt in control at all times and returned the planes to ground reasonably well.  The vanquish flies considerably faster so on the touchdown the grass coupled with the rushes tended to stop the plane more abruptly than Iíd have liked resulting in a mild twist to the undercarriage. 

Iíll wait till I can get a mower on the grass before taking it out again.  Also my site isnít great, as my line of vision is quite tunnelled with trees to the right and the afternoon sun to the left.  My landing approach is a narrow band between trees. I can only fly on still days otherwise my landing approach will be with the prevailing wind!


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« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 16:16:31 PM by jdquinn »

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2018, 16:29:21 PM »



Essjay - yes Eneloops seem to be the most popular option. The connectors are clean & tight, and I've not heard of a single case of Bob's suggested problem. Thousands of these are in use with the standard battery arrangement!
Cheers
Phil
This was back in in 1985 and I was persuaded instantly. I watched the needle go to zero and back. Incidentally that Challenger radio lasted me until the late 90s and I sold it on, never had a radio problem with it.

Offline Old Geezer

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #30 on: January 07, 2018, 20:47:12 PM »
Come on Chaps - if you fly electric using 35 meg kit you're always gonna get glitches - it's only a matter of time before the right glitch at the wrong time and it's bin bag time. Trust me, been there done that. Combine the interference between electric motors and BECs of all varieties with RT signals of all sorts ( we were particularly bothered by Ambulances parked up nearby waiting for calls ) and local power lines with their associated transformers - and flying on 35 meg could be a bit stressful.
Purchase of a 2nd ( or 3rd or 4th ) hand Dx6i and glitches were a thing of the past.

(We do still have a couple of 2.4 refuseniks who fly i/c without problems at my new club, but can't think of anybody still combining 35 and leccy power.)
Can someone remind me what I came in here for.

Offline FrankS

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2018, 20:54:21 PM »
I had some 35mhz Rxs that were more susceptible to glitching in an electric aircraft than others, the Multiplex IPD ones worked quite well and also a Webra Rx too, but some GWS ones I had were terrible.

BTW I go back to flying brushed motors on 6 cell Nicds with my old Fleet gear and don't recall any glitches with that.

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #32 on: January 07, 2018, 20:57:55 PM »
I've just remembered another trick I once used, when I built a Do335 with a pair of Sp400 motors.  That gave me an electrical noise maker at the front, another at the back, and the only place for the Rx was between them!  I tried all the usual suppression tactics, and ran the aerial out through one wingtip, but still had interference problems.  So I wrapped the Rx in foil, effectively making a cocoon around it with tiny openings for the wires.  Made a big difference :)

Offline jdquinn

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #33 on: January 07, 2018, 21:26:55 PM »
I've just remembered another trick I once used, when I built a Do335 with a pair of Sp400 motors.  That gave me an electrical noise maker at the front, another at the back, and the only place for the Rx was between them!  I tried all the usual suppression tactics, and ran the aerial out through one wingtip, but still had interference problems.  So I wrapped the Rx in foil, effectively making a cocoon around it with tiny openings for the wires.  Made a big difference :)

Hmm, interesting!  I would have thought any noise was transmitted to the receiver via the servo and aerial wiring.  Itís worth a try though for all it costs. 

I think I see a message with the majority of the posts now though :-). Ditch 35mhz and jump to 2.4ghz!


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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #34 on: January 07, 2018, 22:01:48 PM »
Another method Iíve just come across is to put all wiring through copper braid similar to coax cable and ground it to the battery negative.  We use this technique all the time at work  when installing vsdís or inverters.  They have a similar operating principle to our escís; they chop dc to produce an ac waveform.  Best of all it definitely works by containing noise and preventing conduction of interference.


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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2018, 09:08:48 AM »
The one thing that puts me off the FlySky i6 is the AA battery compartment!. Has anyone managed to do a lipo conversion, or is it best to stick to something like Enerloops?

Had one since they first emerged, it has HK NIMH from a pool which get swapped. I inspect the ends of cells before fitting as you do get tarnishing esp if you allow over charge (oops), but the Tx has been 100%, the connections have stayed tight (unlike say the Perkins "Planet" radios which gradually relax!!) and it is used frequently. They are an excellent set and a brilliant buy for the money.
The user formerly know as Bravedan........... Well if Prince can do it....................

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2018, 09:16:31 AM »
With regard "glitching" on older 35MHz sets, especially ones stored for a while, I have found:-

1. Some crystals can lose accuracy and or get HR connections on their pins which need non-abrasive cleaning carefully
2. The Tx potentiometers on the sticks get dirty and cause intermittent twitches at some stick positions.

The Pots I clean by removing the battery and spraying evaporating contact cleaner through a narrow tube nozzle into the pot through a gap and working it, washing the dirt out  I put a paper towel to catch the residue and the dirt/worn track carbon that emerges from a long stored lack of use item has to be seen to be believed. Dry before replacing battery!
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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #37 on: January 12, 2018, 12:48:18 PM »
With regard "glitching" on older 35MHz sets, especially ones stored for a while, I have found:-

1. Some crystals can lose accuracy and or get HR connections on their pins which need non-abrasive cleaning carefully

Crystals were the biggest problem with 35. Ive had a  few go down- notably one where I had been flying all morning, was taxying out for my next flight and the crystal died. Apart from that, 35 was fine for me- especially PCM. However, the advantages with 2.4 are irrefutable.

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Re: Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #38 on: January 12, 2018, 18:24:59 PM »
With regard "glitching" on older 35MHz sets, especially ones stored for a while, I have found:-

1. Some crystals can lose accuracy and or get HR connections on their pins which need non-abrasive cleaning carefully
2. The Tx potentiometers on the sticks get dirty and cause intermittent twitches at some stick positions.

The Pots I clean by removing the battery and spraying evaporating contact cleaner through a narrow tube nozzle into the pot through a gap and working it, washing the dirt out  I put a paper towel to catch the residue and the dirt/worn track carbon that emerges from a long stored lack of use item has to be seen to be believed. Dry before replacing battery!

I have kept my radio's working for many years following just that cleaning protocol. I am still using my X378. I think I changed the memory battery a few years ago and changed to an Eneloop battery pack as the original was getting a bit tired. For the last 10 years it was used in the Egyptian desert heat and never a problem.
Life is not measured by the breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.

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Occasional model glitch - Interference?
« Reply #39 on: April 29, 2018, 23:08:05 PM »
Itís been a while since I originally posted this.  I finally got around to fitting a FrSky 2.4 module to my Futaba t7cp.  Fitting was straight forward and setting up in the planes again was straight forward.  Trims setting etc did not change. 

This morning i went out to fly my addiction X.  Range tested at double the recommended length fine.  A simple hand launch and away it went.  Put a battery through quicker than expected as Iíd bought 3S 2200mah for this plane. First flight was uneventful really.

This evening I decided to have another quick flight as conditions were perfect.  Again range checked fine.  This time not so smooth.  I was coming along just above tree height when the plane flicked to one side.  It wasnít something Iíd done.  My reaction was to apply opposite aileron but for a second it didnít take.  When it did take effect I had too much aileron on, the plane flicked the opposite way and straight into trees.  Fortunately there was no damage except for the prop and the aileron servo.

Iím perplexed as to the cause?  This is similar to what happened before I converted the radio set.  Is it likely the radio is goosed?  Before Iím sure Iíll go to another flying site just incase there are problems where I currently fly.


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« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 23:30:31 PM by jdquinn »


 

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