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Author Topic: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.  (Read 1636 times)

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Offline Doc James H

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REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« on: January 10, 2017, 05:08:15 AM »
Hi Guys,
              just to let you now its finally happening.

CAD design was well done by Jonathan Wells.

More later from T9.

Cheers,

James.


Offline Allen the soarer

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2017, 11:58:29 AM »
Looks good James
and knowing your skills Im sure she will SHIFT
cant wait to see one on the circuit  :af

I bet pricing is going to be tricky ?
To high and people will stick to the proven models and too low people wont take it serious.
Got any good F3F pilots to take her out and prove her pedagree on the circuit ?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 12:26:38 PM by Allen the soarer »
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Offline wdeighton

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2017, 21:41:04 PM »
The Guy that did the CAD model is a fantastic pilot. He would be brilliant at testing.

Nose looks very blunt, is that to be f3f legal? rest looks very sleek and minimalistic, Tips similar to the Schwing?

Good luck James

Hope you can get the quality Good!


Offline satinet

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2017, 08:24:06 AM »
Why's the nose so long?

Offline paulinfrance

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2017, 09:32:07 AM »
Why's the nose so long?

 Maybe to make it easier to pull it out of the earth when it crashes 'nose it'  :''
Mode 2 THE only way to fly


Offline Doc James H

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2017, 14:35:07 PM »
Looks good James
and knowing your skills Im sure she will SHIFT
cant wait to see one on the circuit  :af

I bet pricing is going to be tricky ?
To high and people will stick to the proven models and too low people wont take it serious.
Got any good F3F pilots to take her out and prove her pedagree on the circuit ?

I have a standard method Allen - I calculate all the costs then add a number to that.

Hopefully it won't be too expensive. But it won't be that cheap either.

Cheers,

James.

Offline Doc James H

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2017, 14:36:21 PM »
Why's the nose so long?

Hi Tom:
A lot of people are going to ask why I have made the nose longer (only a bit!) than I had before on previous designs so let me explain my thinking:

We fly on slopes and with the wind at 90 degrees to the direction of flight. This means that we have a wind on our plane’s left when flying to the right, and a wind to our plane’s right when flying left.

The area of fuselage and V-tail or fin behind the centre of gravity or the centre of pressure or the aerodynamic centre is far larger than the area in front of it, therefore we will get a “weathercocking” effect where the wind at 90 degrees is always trying to push the rear end of the plane in towards the slope and the nose out towards the horizon. You can argue that this offsets to some degree the overall effect which is to push the plane towards the slope.

In fact this “weathercocking” effect is quite important, as to counteract it the pilot is constantly quite naturally, and unconsciously making corrections either to the yaw or to the bank in order to keep the plane on the line he chooses.

As we know well, the more we move the controls, the more drag is created and the more the plane slows down. Simply, the less we move the controls, assuming that the plane is headed in a good direction anyway (good pilot!) the faster that lap will be. So, if we can offset the weathercocking - even a little - it will mean less correction has to be applied and means a faster lap.

Therefore, if the side area in front of the working centre can be increased, then it offsets the pressure on the rear of the aircraft to some degree (More side area and/or a longer nose). This in turn = less weathercocking = less control inputs needed = faster laps.

Hopefully that might serve to explain. As usual I welcome questions though!


Offline f3fman

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2017, 23:32:22 PM »
At last, someone who understands the effect of flying across the wind, well done James  8-)

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Offline Doc James H

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2017, 10:18:56 AM »
At last, someone who understands the effect of flying across the wind, well done James  8-)

Whatever you do, don't tell Phil T. :o

Cheers,

J.


Offline skirmish

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2017, 13:55:55 PM »
Whatever you do, don't tell Phil T. :o

Cheers,

J.
Sadly I don't think he is on here. I'd love you to run it past him (and others) on the BARCS forum though!  :ev

Offline Phil.Taylor

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2017, 16:09:54 PM »
Sadly I don't think he is on here. I'd love you to run it past him (and others) on the BARCS forum though!  :ev
Anyone who's ever flown full-size will tell you that flying/landing in a crosswind is just a simple matter of vector mathematics
Phil.
ila_rendered
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Offline Doc James H

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2017, 02:08:09 AM »
Why's the nose so long?

Tom - its not that long in fact its a few mm shorter than a pit bull.

Thats a concept sketch only so its not 100% accurate.

J

Offline Doc James H

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2017, 02:14:36 AM »
Anyone who's ever flown full-size will tell you that flying/landing in a crosswind is just a simple matter of vector mathematics
Phil.
(Attachment Link)

Exactly - and then compensating with control inputs to counteract the crosswind effect, and put the plane on the correct vector.

Now where was I?...oh yes, control inputs mean drag don't they?

So the if the crosswind effect can be minimized by balancing its effect across the airframe, at least to some extent, then the degree of control inputs should be less.

Which then logically means...You got it!

Less drag.

Less drag = faster plane.

Correct?

Cheers, Doc J.

Offline Phil.Taylor

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2017, 18:17:17 PM »
So the if the crosswind effect can be minimized by balancing its effect across the airframe, at least to some extent, then the degree of control inputs should be less.
Correct?
Its obvious that you've never flown full-size and experienced this for yourself. So you've not understood when other people with full-size experience have also told you that when you have established the right vector to fly in a "crosswind" - i.e heading towards/along the runway in the diagram above - then no control inputs are required - the plane will happily continue flying on that vector.
You like mental puzzles - so please tell us - in that diagram, if you were to look into the cockpit - on the instrument panel - what is the sideslip indicator telling the pilot?

Phil.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 18:18:46 PM by Phil.Taylor »
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Offline Doc James H

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2017, 04:23:40 AM »
Its obvious that you've never flown full-size and experienced this for yourself. So you've not understood when other people with full-size experience have also told you that when you have established the right vector to fly in a "crosswind" - i.e heading towards/along the runway in the diagram above - then no control inputs are required - the plane will happily continue flying on that vector.
You like mental puzzles - so please tell us - in that diagram, if you were to look into the cockpit - on the instrument panel - what is the sideslip indicator telling the pilot?

Phil.

So Phil - let see:

PPL from 1978 to 1983 - lapsed when I went to Japan to live.

You?

So lets see, I think you must be pretty damn good - definitely as you say, an "A" Pilot and consistent contest winner if you can, "when you have established the right vector to fly in a "crosswind" - i.e heading towards/along the runway (I'll read slope compression layer here) in the diagram above - then no control inputs are required - the plane will happily continue flying on that vector."

Because I can tell you my friend that I cannot.

I do not claim to be an "A pilot" like you, but I'm not that bad, and I can tell you that I have to make constant hopefully small adjustments to keep my plane heading on just the line I want - especially in gusty or changing pressure situations - which is most of the time.   

Maybe the video you posted sums it up - half of it was flown "Off Course" or at least that was the comment on the video screen.

Cheers,

James.


Offline Phil.Taylor

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2017, 08:16:57 AM »
Oh good - you have flown full-size
so for the enlightenment of folks on here - please answer the question I posed:

please tell us - in the diagram above, if you were to look into the cockpit - on the instrument panel - what is the sideslip indicator telling the pilot?


or, if you prefer, what is the direction of the local airflow around the plane in the diagram?

Phil.


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Offline Doc James H

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2017, 10:27:06 AM »
Oh good - you have flown full-size
so for the enlightenment of folks on here - please answer the question I posed:

please tell us - in the diagram above, if you were to look into the cockpit - on the instrument panel - what is the sideslip indicator telling the pilot?


or, if you prefer, what is the direction of the local airflow around the plane in the diagram?

Phil.

We used to call it a Turn and Slip Indicator in my day - so I have never actually seen a "Sideslip indicator" as you describe it.

What is a Sideslip indicator - is it an American term perchance?

If its your terminology for what I used to use, then it will show a 20 degree yaw but will not show any local airflow.

A competition winning "A Pilot" like you must know that the local airflow around any airframe, in any flight mode is so incredibly complex that even Catia and/or other advanced simulators are completely incapable of telling the whole story.

Thats why we waste so much money on wind tunnels.

But there seems to be light at the end of the tunnel, Phil.

At least you have made some progress. You started by saying that crosswinds have no effect whatsoever on slope flying.

If that s the case then I want to fly at your slope.

Cheers,

James.

Offline Phil.Taylor

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2017, 17:52:37 PM »
in the diagram above, if you were to look into the cockpit - on the instrument panel - what is the T&S indicator telling the pilot?
it will show a 20 degree yaw but will not show any local airflow.
FAIL - the T&S indicator is dead-centre - the plane is flying straight & level, with no sideslip

what is the direction of the local airflow around the plane in the diagram?
the local airflow around any airframe, in any flight mode is so incredibly complex that even Catia and/or other advanced simulators are completely incapable of telling the whole story.
FAIL (didn't answer the question) - The local/relative airflow around the plane is aligned with the red "Airspeed" vector in the diagram. The plane is flying straight & level along that vector at 250km/h airspeed
EXTRA FAIL - CATIA is a structural analysis program, not aerodynamic analysis

Phil.
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Offline Doc James H

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2017, 02:07:58 AM »
in the diagram above, if you were to look into the cockpit - on the instrument panel - what is the T&S indicator telling the pilot?FAIL - the T&S indicator is dead-centre - the plane is flying straight & level, with no sideslip

what is the direction of the local airflow around the plane in the diagram?FAIL (didn't answer the question) - The local/relative airflow around the plane is aligned with the red "Airspeed" vector in the diagram. The plane is flying straight & level along that vector at 250km/h airspeed
EXTRA FAIL - CATIA is a structural analysis program, not aerodynamic analysis

Phil.

Phil - sorry mate - wrong on all counts.

Wrong on the turn and slip.

If the plane is flying at a 20 degree vector, nose to the left or right, port or starboard wing forward, where influenced by adverse wind or by rudder input, then it will show. If not then why the turn and slip indicator?

And Phil, please get the terminology right too. Its TURN AND SLIP - Not "SIDESLIP"

Wrong on the computer stuff too.

Catia is not originally a structural analysis programme - its a CAD design programme mate.
But like Solidworks, also has a pretty good flow analysis programme.

Now I will tell you this: The airflow around that plane top to bottom, and side to side will be so complex as to involve mathematics that no human is capable of.

And for that matter believe me there is no such thing as smooth flow on any part of our small airframes.

One for you.

You claim to be a famous "A" class F3f pilot - something I wish I could say.

So: On a normal F3F aerofoil, flying in a normal attitude, at normal speed, what happens to the upper and lower boundary layers??

Tell us what happens here, Phil?

But a few more questions do seem to come up.

If you are really such a highly regarded authority, where is your work?
Where are your designs?
Whats out there with "Designed by Phil" on it?
You have said publicly that you are an "A pilot" so you must be regarded as a top gun in F3F.
If thats true, then where are your "A" pilot contest successes?
What competitions did you win, or place in in the last year, or even 5 years?

I think, and correct me please here if I am wrong; that its a big zero on all of the counts above.

Phil mate - its a lot better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool, than it is to open it and remove all doubt.

Me, I dont claim to be an "A" pilot, I don't even claim to be an "A" designer - thats for others to decide.

For my part, I'm simply an aeronautical engineer who happens to like designing toy aeroplanes, and who enjoys seeing others fly them even more - and believe me there really are a lot of toy aeroplanes out there with "Designed by Dr. James Hammond" tattooed on them.

But, still we need to be positive as at least you have not (so far) resorted to insults as you did on the other forum - an improvement.

Should I perhaps post some of your replies at that time?

Cheers,

James.

Offline Charlie C

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Re: REDSHIFT HAR F3f moulds machining.
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2017, 15:22:04 PM »
I haven't done this for a long time, but I think now is the time to lock this thread.

You two obviously don't get on so please, if your going to have a bit of a fight, have it in private.

Charlie C
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